CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

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In a vacuum, is CCN at sticker irresponsible?

Yes
18
35%
No
16
31%
Depends
17
33%
 
Total votes: 51

rustyburger2
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby rustyburger2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:51 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
rustyburger2 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:OP, I'll ask you this: why is "CCN" meaningful for you? Why do you isolate it? What is it that CCN will do for you that Penn or Berkeley or Northwestern won't?

I'm not tasking rhetorically; there are legitimate answers to the question. But without those answers from you--without an understanding of why you particularly value CCN--it's hard to address your hypo.


This is going to sound like a really shitty reason, but I have always dreamed of going to Columbia and living in NYC. Recently I got accepted.

The reason I'm asking this question is because if, in a vacuum, attending Columbia makes sense, I want to go. But if I'm genuinely jeopardizing my future (as opposed to merely not capitalizing on other opportunities), I might have to reconsider.

Honestly, I would wait a year and retake the LSAT in hopes of a butler or hammy before attending another school. The reason this isn't option #1 is because even if I do increase my score (which I think is likely given that almost all my points were missed on LG), neither of those schollies are guaranteed. And then there's the risk that I won't increase my score, and I also won't get re-accepted.

Basically, there's a strong emotional pull towards Columbia. Is that the best reason for attending a law school? Definitely not. But as long as it's not going to fuck me, I think I might do it.


I'm a fan of CLS but this is not a good/healthy approach. Feel free to PM.


I get that. I guess I'm just trying to figure out exactly how unhealthy it is.

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banjo
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby banjo » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:00 am

rustyburger2 wrote:Basically, there's a strong emotional pull towards Columbia. Is that the best reason for attending a law school? Definitely not. But as long as it's not going to fuck me, I think I might do it.


You'll stop caring about the prestige of Columbia (or any other school) about five minutes after orientation. Guaranteed. Then it'll hit you that you're really just in law school with enormous debt.

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twenty
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby twenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:08 am

The thing is, if you got into Columbia, you probably could/did get into several lower ranked schools that have very good (though perhaps not quite as good) biglaw placement, but at a significant discount. Instead of thinking of things in the worst case scenarios, maybe think of them in the most likely scenarios. Let's say you got into Columbia for sticker, and Cornell with a 120k scholarship. You'll probably end up with NYC biglaw from either school, but your take-home salary will be substantially larger having gone to Cornell with the scholarship.

When you say "it's not going to fuck you" - like, okay, in all reality, you're not going to prostitute yourself out on the street. In all likelihood, you'll get biglaw from Columbia. That said, in order to pay off 300k's worth of student loans, you're going to have to work a minimum (and this is on the conservative side) of four years in biglaw; and that's just to break even. That means the massive salary you could have been spending on fast cars and faster womens, you now have to spend servicing a mid-six-figure debt. Keep in mind that a majority of people in biglaw don't make it to year 5.

The question becomes, is Columbia worth more to you than 200k-400k liquid cash and the freedom to leave biglaw whenever you want? If it is, that's probably leaning into "unhealthy."

rustyburger2
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby rustyburger2 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:48 am

twenty wrote:The question becomes, is Columbia worth more to you than 200k-400k liquid cash and the freedom to leave biglaw whenever you want? If it is, that's probably leaning into "unhealthy."


Honestly, that's what scares me the most about Columbia at sticker. I have no experience with biglaw so I can't say how I'll handle it - and if I can't, it seems like I'm locked in for at least 5 years.

Going back to the whole worst case scenario thing for a second: What happens if you're 300k in debt and biglaw doesn't work out? What are your options at that point? Do you just work public interest and apply for LRAP?

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Skool
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Skool » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:14 am

Image

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Desert Fox
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:32 am

rustyburger2 wrote:
I get that. I guess I'm just trying to figure out exactly how unhealthy it is.


Very unhealthy.

Assume your only choices are CLS at sticker vs no law school. CLS is the worse choice. You got ~320,000 dollars in debt at graduation. That's about 45% of your take home pay as a first year big law associate on a 10 year plan. Yikes.

Almost everyone does biglaw. Which fucking blows. The only good part is the money, which you just pay back to the government. LOL. You'll pay taxes like someone who makes 160k, but your after loan take home pay will be like someone who makes 65-75k.

Here is where you say, hey, I don't make 75k now. So still, I'm coming out way ahead! 1) After four years of working any real career, you should be making 75k in Manhattan. 2) Biglaw is much worse than a real job. The hours are grueling, the work is boring. It is extremely stressful and turns people in neurotic messes. You'll have it worse because you won't be making any real money. While the guy who took the fullride at Fordam goes on last minute vacations do Dubai, you work overtime because you got 9 more years of pay those loans off.

It gets worse. You won't actually make it 10 years in big law. On average probably only three full years. Half leave EARLIER than that. After 3 years, people start getting fired, or as big law calls it 'tapped on teh shoulder."

After big law, a lot of people will take a huge paycut. Remember, you are still paying 3600 a month. Maybe you get lucky and get a 150k in house job. But remember, your 150k, is the same as a regular persons 70k because you have all those loans.

You won't have a positive net worth for like 7-10 years, even if you win at every step of the way.

Again a remind, this shit sucks. I'm like a 6 pack deep still working and I'm a firm that is easier than most.

Here is where the real shit starts: what happens when it doesn't all go your way.

10-15% never get biglaw and take a lower paying job. You can't afford that shit - ur fukt

a bunch leave big law with no job - you cant afford that shit- ur fuct

A bunch exit law within 10 years - great so you end up barely breaking even after a decade. what is the point.

you are selling yourself into indentured servitude, 320k worth because COLUMBIA! OMG! It is insane.

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Desert Fox
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:41 am

But that isn't even how you should measure it. You should measure Columbia vs a lower T14.

Columbia v NWester

It's like 79% going to biglaw or clerking at CLS vs 70% at NW. Hell, if you factor in people striking out due to self selection towards harder markets and midwestern firms that pay well with less than 100 people, the difference is less than 9%.

So you paying a hell of a lot more for VERY little benefit. Essentially none when you consider my previous post.

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bearsfan23
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby bearsfan23 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:13 am

Desert Fox wrote:
rustyburger2 wrote:
I get that. I guess I'm just trying to figure out exactly how unhealthy it is.


Very unhealthy.

Assume your only choices are CLS at sticker vs no law school. CLS is the worse choice. You got ~320,000 dollars in debt at graduation. That's about 45% of your take home pay as a first year big law associate on a 10 year plan. Yikes.

Almost everyone does biglaw. Which fucking blows. The only good part is the money, which you just pay back to the government. LOL. You'll pay taxes like someone who makes 160k, but your after loan take home pay will be like someone who makes 65-75k.

Here is where you say, hey, I don't make 75k now. So still, I'm coming out way ahead! 1) After four years of working any real career, you should be making 75k in Manhattan. 2) Biglaw is much worse than a real job. The hours are grueling, the work is boring. It is extremely stressful and turns people in neurotic messes. You'll have it worse because you won't be making any real money. While the guy who took the fullride at Fordam goes on last minute vacations do Dubai, you work overtime because you got 9 more years of pay those loans off.

It gets worse. You won't actually make it 10 years in big law. On average probably only three full years. Half leave EARLIER than that. After 3 years, people start getting fired, or as big law calls it 'tapped on teh shoulder."

After big law, a lot of people will take a huge paycut. Remember, you are still paying 3600 a month. Maybe you get lucky and get a 150k in house job. But remember, your 150k, is the same as a regular persons 70k because you have all those loans.

You won't have a positive net worth for like 7-10 years, even if you win at every step of the way.

Again a remind, this shit sucks. I'm like a 6 pack deep still working and I'm a firm that is easier than most.

Here is where the real shit starts: what happens when it doesn't all go your way.

10-15% never get biglaw and take a lower paying job. You can't afford that shit - ur fukt

a bunch leave big law with no job - you cant afford that shit- ur fuct

A bunch exit law within 10 years - great so you end up barely breaking even after a decade. what is the point.

you are selling yourself into indentured servitude, 320k worth because COLUMBIA! OMG! It is insane.



DF, I'm curious what you did before law school. You seem to hate your job b/c it is really boring and you work long hours. My job before law school I averaged 100 hours a week doing some of the most boring work imaginable for around 60K a year. So BigLaw doesn't sound bad at all to me. What did you do?

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Desert Fox
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:19 am

engineer.

IF you really did 100 hours a week, im assuming banking?

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unemployable
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby unemployable » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:30 am

Desert Fox wrote:engineer.

.
Last edited by unemployable on Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:39 am

Desert Fox wrote:engineer.

IF you really did 100 hours a week, im assuming banking?

Averaged 100 hours a week? Lol, come bearsfan... that's working 9am to 11pm every day including weekends.

@OP, I'll echo everyone else and say your reasons for wanting to go to Columbia are terrible. You want NYC? Cool, go to Penn or wherever on scholly and go work in NYC.

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jbagelboy
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:29 am

Desert Fox wrote:But that isn't even how you should measure it. You should measure Columbia vs a lower T14.

Columbia v NWester

It's like 79% going to biglaw or clerking at CLS vs 70% at NW. Hell, if you factor in people striking out due to self selection towards harder markets and midwestern firms that pay well with less than 100 people, the difference is less than 9%.

So you paying a hell of a lot more for VERY little benefit. Essentially none when you consider my previous post.


I agree OP should look at other T14s but you're playing loose and fast with the numbers here DF. Excluding Kellogg NU JD students don't have a 90%+ OCI success rate. Also you're rounding up on NU and down on CLS for convenience from LST. I think a 10% margin is fair. What is that worth? Way fucking less than $200,000.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:57 am

I mean, here's the thing. The name on your JD is not going to impact your happiness. Ever, at all. Don't pay for it.

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Desert Fox
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:16 am

jbagelboy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:But that isn't even how you should measure it. You should measure Columbia vs a lower T14.

Columbia v NWester

It's like 79% going to biglaw or clerking at CLS vs 70% at NW. Hell, if you factor in people striking out due to self selection towards harder markets and midwestern firms that pay well with less than 100 people, the difference is less than 9%.

So you paying a hell of a lot more for VERY little benefit. Essentially none when you consider my previous post.


I agree OP should look at other T14s but you're playing loose and fast with the numbers here DF. Excluding Kellogg NU JD students don't have a 90%+ OCI success rate. Also you're rounding up on NU and down on CLS for convenience from LST. I think a 10% margin is fair. What is that worth? Way fucking less than $200,000.


I did exclude jd mba who went jd advantage at Kellogg but to make it fair I took out all jd advantage for cls in total since they only had 9.

Kellogg drags down northwestern lst numbers bcause over 75 percent don't do law jobs.

Columbia still has a massive advantage at top vault firms and I mean massive. But lower firms aren't salivating over a bottom half cls grad.

notgreat
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby notgreat » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:48 am

Skool wrote:Image

Jesus Christ

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:58 pm

rustyburger2 wrote:
Basically, my question is this: Is CCN at sticker (fully financed through loans) actually an irresponsible decision? Or is it just irresponsible given the fact that I could go to school elsewhere for free?


CCN at sticker works on paper, so it's not terribly irresponsible in that sense. You can be reasonably sure that you can make it work. The only thing is, making it work requires years of misery, so it's probably not worth it for all the reasons DF laid out.

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Dog
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Dog » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:31 pm

I once had CLS pegged as my "dream" school and ended up EDing NU. The dream changed when I started looking at repayment figures on LST haha.




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