CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

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In a vacuum, is CCN at sticker irresponsible?

Yes
18
35%
No
16
31%
Depends
17
33%
 
Total votes: 51

rustyburger2
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CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby rustyburger2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:51 am

I know the common wisdom is that if you get into CCN at sticker, the superior choice is a lower t14 with money. Putting that aside, what are your thoughts on the decision between CCN at sticker vs. not going to law school at all?

Assume minimal financial aid, and that everything would be financed through student loans. Also assume that I have a genuine interest in the legal field.

Basically, my question is this: Is CCN at sticker (fully financed through loans) actually an irresponsible decision? Or is it just irresponsible given the fact that I could go to school elsewhere for free?
Last edited by rustyburger2 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

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eriedoctrine
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby eriedoctrine » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:52 am

No, it's fine.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:58 am

depends on what else youre gonna do. if you can get a good job, yes that shit is a brutal mistake. see me - up at 3 am doing fucking work

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:48 am

I don't know if it's irresponsible, but it is risky. You're basically making a choice that will turn out ok only if you get one particular kind of job that is not guaranteed, and which most people hate, and keep it for something like five years, during which time you won't be able to enjoy the one major advantage the job offers (money) because you'll be paying back your loans. Does that sound like a good idea?

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Power_of_Facing
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Power_of_Facing » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am

Sticker anywhere is irresponsible (exception being MAYBE (and if so just barely) Yale). Unless you're exorbitantly wealthy and your safety net is immaculate, do not take on sticker debt. Just being in law school can feel restrictive and stifling in ways you can't completely grasp until you're here. Hemorrhaging money on top of this will compound the pressure.

If you're going to go to law school, be absolutely certain you want to be an attorney, and mitigate the costs as much as possible. If you can't get into a school that will give you the opportunities you seek for a price you can afford to pay (which is NOT sticker), retake until you can, or don't go. In the meantime, find something you love or at least like to do, and find someone who will pay you to do that or something similar. You'll never be a slave to the billable hour in that scenario.

Nomo
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Nomo » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:47 pm

There might be a few, very limited situations where it make sense. Maybe if you've been a paralegal at a big law firm and thought to yourself, "This is where I want to be for the rest of my life."

Its just so risky. You're screwed if you have terrible grades, have bad luck at OCI, get no offered (or cold offered), watch your firm implode early in your career, or get hit with layoffs (or stealth layoffs) in a bad economy. All of those things happen to CCN students and graduates. Every year.

And its also risky in the sense that you're paying such a high entry cost into a profession that you might not even like. A profession that you might actively hate. People like CCN because they think it opens up options. But with that kind of time commitment and debt you are foreclosing as many options as you are opening.

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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:58 pm

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Last edited by buckiguy_sucks on Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

af0890
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby af0890 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:04 pm

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Last edited by af0890 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:05 pm

I don't understand why you've set up this binary hypo.

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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:06 pm

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Last edited by buckiguy_sucks on Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheodoreKGB
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby TheodoreKGB » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:09 pm

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Last edited by TheodoreKGB on Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

af0890
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby af0890 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:18 pm

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Last edited by af0890 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sims1
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby sims1 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:21 pm

af0890 wrote:but is there really that much of a difference between sticker at CCN and getting some money? E.g. graduating with 250-300k in debt over graduating with 150-200k? The vast majority of people who go get less than a half scholarship.


This. CoL in NYC makes up a huge portion of your CoA. That being said, I think your chances of getting big law are phenomenal at these schools, which makes a ~50K scholarship pretty negligible in the long-run. Yes, it's nice to be able to save this money, but I hardly think it should be dispositive over a lot of other factors.

That being said, tuition at CCN is still effing insane.

exitoptions
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby exitoptions » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:25 pm

af0890 wrote:but is there really that much of a difference between sticker at CCN and getting some money? E.g. graduating with 250-300k in debt over graduating with 150-200k? The vast majority of people who go get less than a half scholarship.


Yeah, there's a huge difference. $150k is manageable for most people. $200K+ is a sole crushing / life destroying debt level. If you take out sticker loans, you will pay about $2k a month every month for 25 years (or $3200 per month for 10 years (but good luck keeping that up)). Realistically you'll probably do PAYE, and just pay around $1500 a month and have to pay a large tax on the forgiven loans. Anyway you cut it, forget about saving much for retirement or sending your kid to college.

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nothingtosee
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby nothingtosee » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:38 pm

romothesavior wrote:I don't understand why you've set up this binary hypo.

Nomo
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Nomo » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:14 pm

buckiguy_sucks wrote:
Nomo wrote: watch your firm implode early in your career.


Not that I plan on going anywhere full cost, or plan on biglaw, but an attorney (related to me) told me that when firms implode most partners just lateral to other firms and when they do that take a couple of their favorite associates with them. is there any truth to this statement?

Edit: also may be the wrong place for this question, feel free to tell me that


Plenty of truth to that. Though obviously some partners move to smaller firms and can't take associates with them. And most partners can only take a few associates. And one year into your career you're probably not on anyone's list of favorite associates. Again, its not likely that your firm implodes, but there's a decent chance it will happen to someone you know.

Nomo
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby Nomo » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:18 pm

af0890 wrote:but is there really that much of a difference between sticker at CCN and getting some money? E.g. graduating with 250-300k in debt over graduating with 150-200k? The vast majority of people who go get less than a half scholarship.


I'm of the opinion that almost everyone coming out of CCN (or a lower T14) will be able to get and keep professional jobs (even if they aren't legal jobs) that will allow them to pay off 150k in 10-15 years. It might suck. But it will be possible. 200k is significantly harder. 300k is out of this world crazy.

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rpupkin
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby rpupkin » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:31 pm

OP, I'll ask you this: why is "CCN" meaningful for you? Why do you isolate it? What is it that CCN will do for you that Penn or Berkeley or Northwestern won't?

I'm not tasking rhetorically; there are legitimate answers to the question. But without those answers from you--without an understanding of why you particularly value CCN--it's hard to address your hypo.

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star fox
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby star fox » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:48 pm

I wouldnt do it. Even if you win you'll still be in debt forever. But you should really give your actual numbers so we know if this binary hypo is legit (you're a super Splitter and no T14 is going to give you anything) or if you're in a position to get serious discounts at lower T14 (in which case take that all day over T6 Sticker).

03152016
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby 03152016 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:03 pm

i just checked out cost of attendance pages and nearly threw up my lunch. using lawschool22's calculator, cost of attendance figures from the columbia law website, data on cost of living/tuition increases from law school transparency, and loan fee info from directloans.gov, i calculated columbia at repayment at $316,627. on a ten year payment plan, that's $46,315 per year, $463,153 (approaching a half million dollars) repaid altogether. the numbers will be even higher for this year's incoming class.

it's your life, you have to live with the risks. but to me, this is indefensible. i don't understand why you're saying lower t14 is not an option. that is almost certainly the route i would take if faced with this choice.

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jbagelboy
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:08 pm

Its not irresponsible as far as risk of default is concerned, just like Harvard at sticker, but it will make you miserable and its ill advised. If I had other T14s with significant scholarship, I'd take them. If I had a decent job with advancement prospects/another advanced degree track lined up or possible, I'd do that. If I had no prospects outside of minimum wage/menial work and no other offers with $$ AND I wanted to be an attorney, I'd take the dive. But these are some very specific conditions.

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romothesavior
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:40 pm

You get one thread on a particular subject. This one is it. Don't make another on this topic.

ETA: Unlocking this and locking the other thread per OP request.

rustyburger2
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby rustyburger2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:14 pm

rpupkin wrote:OP, I'll ask you this: why is "CCN" meaningful for you? Why do you isolate it? What is it that CCN will do for you that Penn or Berkeley or Northwestern won't?

I'm not tasking rhetorically; there are legitimate answers to the question. But without those answers from you--without an understanding of why you particularly value CCN--it's hard to address your hypo.


This is going to sound like a really shitty reason, but I have always dreamed of going to Columbia and living in NYC. Recently I got accepted.

The reason I'm asking this question is because if, in a vacuum, attending Columbia makes sense, I want to go. But if I'm genuinely jeopardizing my future (as opposed to merely not capitalizing on other opportunities), I might have to reconsider.

Honestly, I would wait a year and retake the LSAT in hopes of a butler or hammy before attending another school. The reason this isn't option #1 is because even if I do increase my score (which I think is likely given that almost all my points were missed on LG), neither of those schollies are guaranteed. And then there's the risk that I won't increase my score, and I also won't get re-accepted.

Basically, there's a strong emotional pull towards Columbia. Is that the best reason for attending a law school? Definitely not. But as long as it's not going to fuck me, I think I might do it.
Last edited by rustyburger2 on Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

rustyburger2
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby rustyburger2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:20 pm

star fox wrote:But you should really give your actual numbers so we know if this binary hypo is legit (you're a super Splitter and no T14 is going to give you anything) or if you're in a position to get serious discounts at lower T14 (in which case take that all day over T6 Sticker).


3.8x and 170. I got accepted to both Columbia and NYU. The binary hypo isn't meant to be a real scenario, it's just a tool I'm using to help me out in deciding this whole thing.

Although, there is some truth to it because the only lower t14 I applied to was Michigan (I know, I should have blanketed), and I got waitlisted.

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jbagelboy
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Re: CCN at sticker vs. Not going to law school at all

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:47 pm

rustyburger2 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:OP, I'll ask you this: why is "CCN" meaningful for you? Why do you isolate it? What is it that CCN will do for you that Penn or Berkeley or Northwestern won't?

I'm not tasking rhetorically; there are legitimate answers to the question. But without those answers from you--without an understanding of why you particularly value CCN--it's hard to address your hypo.


This is going to sound like a really shitty reason, but I have always dreamed of going to Columbia and living in NYC. Recently I got accepted.

The reason I'm asking this question is because if, in a vacuum, attending Columbia makes sense, I want to go. But if I'm genuinely jeopardizing my future (as opposed to merely not capitalizing on other opportunities), I might have to reconsider.

Honestly, I would wait a year and retake the LSAT in hopes of a butler or hammy before attending another school. The reason this isn't option #1 is because even if I do increase my score (which I think is likely given that almost all my points were missed on LG), neither of those schollies are guaranteed. And then there's the risk that I won't increase my score, and I also won't get re-accepted.

Basically, there's a strong emotional pull towards Columbia. Is that the best reason for attending a law school? Definitely not. But as long as it's not going to fuck me, I think I might do it.


I'm a fan of CLS but this is not a good/healthy approach. Feel free to PM.




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