As bad as they say?

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Nothing but the Funk
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As bad as they say?

Postby Nothing but the Funk » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:14 pm

According to the scamblogs even the T6 isn't safe. They try and claim that the only people getting "good" jobs from these schools are those with connections, t14 graduates are lucky to find doc review jobs, can't even trust LST, even if you get a job you'll lose it, etc. This seems overly dismal. I really hope this is an exaggeration but hearing back from some current students/lawyers would help put my mind at ease. What are your opinions on this stuff?

03152016
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby 03152016 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:34 pm

i think they're trying to point out that t14 outcomes aren't as rock solid as they used to be
can you link to the post? it's hard to know exactly how to respond without seeing the argument. not all scambloggers are as bombastic as, say, nando

of course people at top schools are able to get good jobs without connections. that's definitely hyperbole. unless they're saying that there are very few legal jobs that are objectively "good", and those that exist are exceedingly hard to get; pretty subjective, but at least you could debate it.
to say that t14 grads are "lucky" to find doc review jobs goes too far. but if what they're really saying is that there are some t14 grads that are lucky to get doc review jobs, that's true. some grads from top schools go onto do contract work. just a reality
the point about lst might actually be a point about the overall quality of law school disclosures in general. if it refers to lst's credibility in aggregating data, i disagree.
there's more than a grain of truth w/r/t the job security comment, but more in the sense that it's a roll of the dice – there is a non-negligible chance of being no-offered, there's always the possibility of a stealth layoff, or a lack of good exit options. and of course contract work, school-funded positions, some state clerkships, etc don't afford long-term job security, which you'd expect after spending three years of your life and six figures for law school. but if they're saying that the standard outcome for a graduate of a top school is to lose their job, that's not true

so it 100% depends on context. hard to comment without seeing the actual post. links?

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:35 pm

The law has an underbelly

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Nothing but the Funk
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Nothing but the Funk » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:43 pm

Brut wrote:i think they're trying to point out that t14 outcomes aren't as rock solid as they used to be
can you link to the post? it's hard to know exactly how to respond without seeing the argument. not all scambloggers are as bombastic as, say, nando

of course people at top schools are able to get good jobs without connections. that's definitely hyperbole. unless they're saying that there are very few legal jobs that are objectively "good", and those that exist are exceedingly hard to get; pretty subjective, but at least you could debate it.
to say that t14 grads are "lucky" to find doc review jobs goes too far. but if what they're really saying is that there are some t14 grads that are lucky to get doc review jobs, that's true. some grads from top schools go onto do contract work. just a reality
the point about lst might actually be a point about the overall quality of law school disclosures in general. if it refers to lst's credibility in aggregating data, i disagree.
there's more than a grain of truth w/r/t the job security comment, but more in the sense that it's a roll of the dice – there is a non-negligible chance of being no-offered, there's always the possibility of a stealth layoff, or a lack of good exit options. and of course contract work, school-funded positions, some state clerkships, etc don't afford long-term job security, which you'd expect after spending three years of your life and six figures for law school. but if they're saying that the standard outcome for a graduate of a top school is to lose their job, that's not true

so it 100% depends on context. hard to comment without seeing the actual post. links?


It wasn't any one post. It was my view after reading a bunch of these types of posts on outsidethelawschoolscam, JDunderground, reddit school of law, etc.

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Pneumonia
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Pneumonia » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:46 pm

Legal jobs may themselves be dismal, but if you're at a T6 your prospects of getting one aren't.

bl1nds1ght
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby bl1nds1ght » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:48 pm

Nothing but the Funk wrote:
Brut wrote:i think they're trying to point out that t14 outcomes aren't as rock solid as they used to be
can you link to the post? it's hard to know exactly how to respond without seeing the argument. not all scambloggers are as bombastic as, say, nando

of course people at top schools are able to get good jobs without connections. that's definitely hyperbole. unless they're saying that there are very few legal jobs that are objectively "good", and those that exist are exceedingly hard to get; pretty subjective, but at least you could debate it.
to say that t14 grads are "lucky" to find doc review jobs goes too far. but if what they're really saying is that there are some t14 grads that are lucky to get doc review jobs, that's true. some grads from top schools go onto do contract work. just a reality
the point about lst might actually be a point about the overall quality of law school disclosures in general. if it refers to lst's credibility in aggregating data, i disagree.
there's more than a grain of truth w/r/t the job security comment, but more in the sense that it's a roll of the dice – there is a non-negligible chance of being no-offered, there's always the possibility of a stealth layoff, or a lack of good exit options. and of course contract work, school-funded positions, some state clerkships, etc don't afford long-term job security, which you'd expect after spending three years of your life and six figures for law school. but if they're saying that the standard outcome for a graduate of a top school is to lose their job, that's not true

so it 100% depends on context. hard to comment without seeing the actual post. links?


It wasn't any one post. It was my view after reading a bunch of these types of posts on outsidethelawschoolscam, JDunderground, reddit school of law, etc.


I can almost guarantee you that /r/lawschool does not espouse anything like what you're saying in the OP. I've never seen "T6 isn't safe" or "the only good jobs are received through connections."

FSK
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby FSK » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:53 pm

I'm on /r/lawschool a lot, and I make sure there's just as much bitterness, regret, and hopefully solid advice on both sides of the internet highway. You get some dummies, however, because posts occasionally filter into /r/all.

03152016
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby 03152016 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:03 pm

Nothing but the Funk wrote:It wasn't any one post. It was my view after reading a bunch of these types of posts on outsidethelawschoolscam, JDunderground, reddit school of law, etc.

well, the thing is, a lot of the sentiments you expressed in the op simply aren't accurate on their face, but are grounded in some truth, or are true in some contexts. i gave a few examples of that. so while i generally don't agree with the views that were expressed stripped of context, i might agree with them if i had the actual posts in front of me.

if there are any posts in particular that are representative of what you're talking about, that would be helpful

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Hand
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Hand » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:05 pm

brut you are rocking your new posting style

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Hikikomorist
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Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:07 pm

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Last edited by Hikikomorist on Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nomo
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Nomo » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:10 pm

Plenty of people at T14 schools end up in bad jobs (low paying, boring work, long hours, bad bosses). Its a substantial risk. Plenty of people get high paying jobs, but dislike them. Some people get government or non-profit jobs and dislike them. Some people get pushed out of their firms (or get worn out and leave) when they still have 6 figures of debt. Some firms implode. Some firms engage in layoffs or stealth layoffs. Some people find that they don't have the exit opportunities they thought they would.

T6 isn't safe in the sense that a small, but very real, percentage of the class will end up with a boring, lowpaying job; and nearly 300k of debt at a high interest rate. T6 is also unsafe in that a smal, but very real, percentage of the class will get biglaw and get forced out of biglaw into a subpar exit opportunity without having paid half of their debt. Its also unsafe in that some people will spend all that money (and three years of their life) only to find that they really hate the practice of law in all its forms.

You can trust LST, but you have to look at all the data and think hard about what it means, recognizing that the data still isn't sufficient to give you a complete story.

Plenty of people get jobs without connections. But connections help. They help a lot for small firm hiring.

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Nothing but the Funk
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Nothing but the Funk » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:23 pm

Brut wrote:
Nothing but the Funk wrote:It wasn't any one post. It was my view after reading a bunch of these types of posts on outsidethelawschoolscam, JDunderground, reddit school of law, etc.

well, the thing is, a lot of the sentiments you expressed in the op simply aren't accurate on their face, but are grounded in some truth, or are true in some contexts. i gave a few examples of that. so while i generally don't agree with the views that were expressed stripped of context, i might agree with them if i had the actual posts in front of me.

if there are any posts in particular that are representative of what you're talking about, that would be helpful



here is a few I found but as I said these are articles I've seen over the past month or two of searching, so not a full list by any means.
http://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comme ... _withdraw/
http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... hools.html
http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... adId=46232
http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... tions.html (not technically about t14)
http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... -know.html
https://lawyerist.com/70883/dont-go-law-school-now/

bl1nds1ght
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby bl1nds1ght » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:30 pm

Hikkomorist wrote:
bl1nds1ght wrote:
Nothing but the Funk wrote:
It wasn't any one post. It was my view after reading a bunch of these types of posts on outsidethelawschoolscam, JDunderground, reddit school of law, etc.


I can almost guarantee you that /r/lawschool does not espouse anything like what you're saying in the OP. I've never seen "T6 isn't safe" or "the only good jobs are received through connections."


If anything, they seemed excessively optimistic about the state of employments prospects for new graduates, especially for those coming from non-elite law schools.

I'll definitely give you that. I try my best to correct that shit on /r/lawschooladmissions as I'm not on /r/lawschool as much, but there's definitely an element of that since the old regulars don't post much anymore on /r/lawschool.

/r/lawschooladmissions had a hissyfit the other week about people being elitist regarding school choice seemingly without regard for employment outcomes/cost and no one could provide any relevant posts. Someone finally quoted me saying that GWU at sticker is an objectively bad idea and I was like, really, it IS an objectively bad idea, lol.

Sometimes when a prospective student's situation is starkly bad, the truth seems rude and unkind and unfortunately it takes a lot of extra effort not to come off as blunt.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:31 am

The scambloggers have hurt their credibility a bit by trying to argue "look at how bad things are at NYU, imagine how really awful it must be everywhere else!" and aggressively playing up the occasional unemployment story from top schools. Campos did this back on inside the law school scam from time to time, with DJM's post about Penn's 25th percentile salaries being one of my favorite examples. Overall, yeah, things are pretty bad but not in the way these posts describe

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:10 am

You'll probably be ok getting biglaw or your other choice of job from a top school, but there's a non negligible chance you won't. That's always been true, though it is certainly somewhat more true than it used to be. But more than the job market, it's the increased cost from 5-10 years ago that really makes it hurt. IMO no school is worth going to anymore if you can't afford not to work in biglaw afterward. And that includes pretty much anyone without a huge scholarship or serious family money.

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:34 am

There are always going to be a few people who won't get johs, because of luck or because they mess up. It happens.

wons
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby wons » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:27 pm

My experience is that it is not remotely as bad as people make it out to be.

I'm a T6 grad, and I'm a couple of months away from 5 years out from school. That means that I graduated in 2010, right in the middle of the jobpocolypse.

Among my circle of 12 close friends (which is a generally unbiased sample, since I wasn't on law review or anything like that):

6 are at their original firms, 3 of which are top firms (i.e. Cravath/DPW/Cleary)
3 are at new firms. Generally, two dropped down a tier when they lateraled, which is pretty common (i.e., moving from Cleary to Weil). One stayed at the same level.
2 are already in house. One has a cherry job, the other has a low key job but she wanted one so she could start having kids
1 was chased out of the law, but not before she knocked her debt down to ~$50k or so, so she's doing OK, though I think she would've rather worked for another year or two.

IMO, for five years out, that's a pretty good record.

Nomo
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Nomo » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:10 pm

wons wrote:My experience is that it is not remotely as bad as people make it out to be.

I'm a T6 grad, and I'm a couple of months away from 5 years out from school. That means that I graduated in 2010, right in the middle of the jobpocolypse.

Among my circle of 12 close friends (which is a generally unbiased sample, since I wasn't on law review or anything like that):

6 are at their original firms, 3 of which are top firms (i.e. Cravath/DPW/Cleary)
3 are at new firms. Generally, two dropped down a tier when they lateraled, which is pretty common (i.e., moving from Cleary to Weil). One stayed at the same level.
2 are already in house. One has a cherry job, the other has a low key job but she wanted one so she could start having kids
1 was chased out of the law, but not before she knocked her debt down to ~$50k or so, so she's doing OK, though I think she would've rather worked for another year or two.

IMO, for five years out, that's a pretty good record.


The fact that all 12 seem to have started in biglaw tells us that it not a representative sample.

But I think the level of risk isn't so much the likelihood that things go bad. Its more about how bad things will be if they do go bad. (Also sticker at CCN is for a 2018 graduate is going to be significantly more expensive than a 2010 graduate. So the one who knocked her debt down to 50k might have closer to 100k left if she paid 2016-2018 sticker prices - this is assuming she did pay sticker and didn't have any scholarships).

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jbagelboy
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:48 pm

the scamblog people you're citing are old news. T6 is no longer "as bad as they say." a couple schools had bad years from 2009-2012. C/O 2011 was tough on Chicago, NYU, Harvard. Low-40% at large firms and low 50%'s for traditional favorable outcomes overall, a little higher for H. C/O 2012 saw a big bounce back for the T6 but still not quite pre-recession levels. By C/O 2013 we're back up in the mid-70%'s with near 90% OCI success rates. If NLJ tells us anything, last year was even stronger. And OCI this year had incredible traffic from all accounts.

Yea there will be strikeouts even at the very top schools but these scambloggers are working with outdated, stylized information.

wons
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby wons » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:22 am

Nomo wrote:
wons wrote:My experience is that it is not remotely as bad as people make it out to be.

I'm a T6 grad, and I'm a couple of months away from 5 years out from school. That means that I graduated in 2010, right in the middle of the jobpocolypse.

Among my circle of 12 close friends (which is a generally unbiased sample, since I wasn't on law review or anything like that):

6 are at their original firms, 3 of which are top firms (i.e. Cravath/DPW/Cleary)
3 are at new firms. Generally, two dropped down a tier when they lateraled, which is pretty common (i.e., moving from Cleary to Weil). One stayed at the same level.
2 are already in house. One has a cherry job, the other has a low key job but she wanted one so she could start having kids
1 was chased out of the law, but not before she knocked her debt down to ~$50k or so, so she's doing OK, though I think she would've rather worked for another year or two.

IMO, for five years out, that's a pretty good record.


The fact that all 12 seem to have started in biglaw tells us that it not a representative sample.

But I think the level of risk isn't so much the likelihood that things go bad. Its more about how bad things will be if they do go bad. (Also sticker at CCN is for a 2018 graduate is going to be significantly more expensive than a 2010 graduate. So the one who knocked her debt down to 50k might have closer to 100k left if she paid 2016-2018 sticker prices - this is assuming she did pay sticker and didn't have any scholarships).


Well, I'm going to disagree with you on whether its a representative sample. Of the people who wanted Biglaw, nearly everyone got it, and the ones who didn't generally didn't because they were profoundly screwed up in some way (I.e., were the sort of people who before OCI, you were thinking "how the hell is that person going to survive interviewing / being a summer?")

Of course, the problem is that those people's same issues prevented them, in some instances, from being aware of flaws that were obvious to everyone around them, but I still think it's relevant that a big portion of the "no biglaw" crowd were folks who, for example, had raging coke problems or famously only attended the first day of class and then the exam. Someone with difficulty following basic rules didn't interview well or crashed and burned as a summer? I am shocked, shocked!

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: As bad as they say?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:56 am

There is NALP data on this which says that about 31% of associates will be at their original biglaw firm (501+ attorneys, with the percentage higher for firms in the 101-499 range) after five years. About half of the people who leave go to another law firm:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=207971&start=208




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