H v. T10 for appellate lit

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What should DetroitRed choose?

HLS (~150-175k debt at graduation)
37
28%
Columbia (~100k debt at graduation - Butler)
4
3%
Duke (0 debt at graduation - Mordecai)
84
64%
UVA (~45k debt at graduation)
7
5%
 
Total votes: 132

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DetroitRed
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby DetroitRed » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:46 pm

notgreat wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:You joke about the carnal sin thing, but saying you want appellate is received by your classmates the same way as saying you want SCOTUS (read: very very poorly). I imagine this holds at OCI as well.

It comes across as "I want all of the gold stars, I heard about a gold star called appellate lit, so I want that one."


Listen to this advice. The last thing on Earth you want to do is alienate your interviewers and, perhaps more importantly, your HLS classmates who will likely be one of your greatest career assets going forward. Do not tell anyone you are gunning for SCOTUS. If you want it, gun for it. But keep it to yourself.



Something tells me this guy/gal is going to alienate a lot his classmates and colleagues regardless of what he says. But maybe he can fake not being insufferable.


Brooo, stooop. I'm not that bad in real life. I just asked a naive question that was apparently not received well.
Last edited by DetroitRed on Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pneumonia
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Pneumonia » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:48 pm

rpupkin wrote:
notgreat wrote:Something tells me this guy/gal is going to alienate a lot his classmates and colleagues regardless of what he says. But maybe he can fake not being insufferable.

C'mon. I bet over half of the OP's classmates would have similar goals when starting at HLS. Yeah, there's a bit of "mindlessly chasing prestige" in the OP's posts, but otherwise nothing to suggest that the OP is insufferable.


I agree. He came in hot, got shit on, recanted or whatever, and now it's all good. No law student deserving of "insufferable" would have made it to the third step. You'll do fine OP.

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052220152
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 052220152 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:58 pm

DetroitRed wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:
DetroitRed wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:This guy is obviously just some professional box checker who doesn't really know what he wants--nothing to see here. Reality will hit him sooner rather than later, after EIP and after his options are more limited.


Wow, what an adroit attorney you must be that you've identified my MO on the basis of a few posts.

#sikenah


You provide a bunch of evidence that you are a prestige obsessed striver who's goal is prestige. [Does Susman even do much appellate? I thought they were mostly trial. IDK. Also, you know Susman's based out of Houston?]

You refuse to state your really good reasons for wanting to do crazily elite prestig-y work.

So...yeah. I mean, it also fits in with doing TFA (mad prestige) and then leaving right away.


Come on, that's unfair. You have no idea why I chose TFA. I had more *preftigious* jobs I could have taken, that would have paid better, and would have been in better cities.

Look, appellate lit is something that really appeals to me. Yes, I know it's hard to get. It's one of the few employment outcomes that I thought there might be a huge difference in obtaining from these schools. That's why I tested the waters.

Sincere responses are welcome, and I thank people who've given them. But seriously, just give your response and move along.

This is like when people ask not to hear 'retake' but are continually told to retake. Except in those cases you can plausibly make the case that you're doing the OP a favor. Here you can't, so chill on me.

ETA: You really cannot criticize someone for leaving TFA after two years. Two years is a long time to work in a windowless basement, for a totalitarian principal, with no job security, for very little pay, in a city you don't like. I agree that if your mentality is to do two years for an admissions bump or something -- that is bad. But honestly, all three of my roommates have been assaulted by students, sometimes severely (like requiring medical attention). I luckily have been spared in that regard, but again, don't judge people for leaving TFA until you actually understand their situation/what goes on in bad TFA regions generally.


what are your reasons for wanting appellate lit

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:13 pm

I realize this is a total distraction, but: aren't the low pay/no job security/city you hate parts of TFA pretty obvious before you even start? (That said, doing a term and leaving is completely different from leaving in the middle of a term anyway.)

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nothingtosee
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:21 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I realize this is a total distraction, but: aren't the low pay/no job security/city you hate parts of TFA pretty obvious before you even start? (That said, doing a term and leaving is completely different from leaving in the middle of a term anyway.)


IMO the worst part of teaching in a failing school is a student disrespect and apathy combined with an antagonistic administration. (Which is a reason why I think elementary teachers are generally more satisfied - less [and different] student disrespect and less apathy.)
YMMV

I think most people leave failing schools because it's a bad work environment (see how many schools have ~25% or more teacher turnover year to year).

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:41 pm

To be fair to OP, appellate lit is tons better than regular lit since you don't have to fuck with discovery/doc review. That said, everyone saying this is a bullshit unicorn goal is 100 percent correct, just go to Dook for free and do biglaw like everyone else.

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20160810
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:44 pm

DetroitRed wrote:
Come on, that's unfair. You have no idea why I chose TFA. I had more *preftigious* jobs I could have taken, that would have paid better, and would have been in better cities.

Look, appellate lit is something that really appeals to me. Yes, I know it's hard to get. It's one of the few employment outcomes that I thought there might be a huge difference in obtaining from these schools. That's why I tested the waters.

Sincere responses are welcome, and I thank people who've given them. But seriously, just give your response and move along.

This is like when people ask not to hear 'retake' but are continually told to retake. Except in those cases you can plausibly make the case that you're doing the OP a favor. Here you can't, so chill on me.

ETA: You really cannot criticize someone for leaving TFA after two years. Two years is a long time to work in a windowless basement, for a totalitarian principal, with no job security, for very little pay, in a city you don't like. I agree that if your mentality is to do two years for an admissions bump or something -- that is bad. But honestly, all three of my roommates have been assaulted by students, sometimes severely (like requiring medical attention). I luckily have been spared in that regard, but again, don't judge people for leaving TFA until you actually understand their situation/what goes on in bad TFA regions generally.

Dude I barely made it through my 2 years in TFA. Nobody should get shit on for leaving after two. That's the commitment you made, and you honored it. End of story. It's the people who leave after one year (or in the middle of institute) who we all deservedly razz.

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20160810
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:47 pm

The worst part of TFA for me wasn't the work, my kids were pretty cool and I was 22 and single so the horrible pay was a non-factor. The worst part was being trapped in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of people who turned out to be, on the whole, really uptight and uncool boners who took themselves way too seriously. If I could have done it in a city instead of a rural region I probably would have had an OK time. But the organizational culture was nothing like I expected it to be before I got involved.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:48 pm

Oh, I agree that there are a lot of very valid reasons why the job would be incredibly difficult, and I don't fault anyone for deciding they don't want to do it. I certainly couldn't do it. I was just a little struck by talking particularly about low pay and a location you don't like, because presumably you know that going in. (The other particular problems, I'm sure you know they're possibilities before you start, but you don't really know what you'll get or how you'll deal with it.)

(This is @nothingtosee.)

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby rpupkin » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:53 pm

SBL wrote:To be fair to OP, appellate lit is tons better than regular lit since you don't have to fuck with discovery/doc review.

It really depends on the individual. I do about a 80/20 mix of regular lit and appellate lit, and I think I'd go crazy if my whole life was appellate lit. Remember in undergrad (or law school) when you had several long papers due at the end of the semester? Appellate lit kinda feels like that all the time. Plus, you mostly work for days at a time in your office without really talking to anyone. That suits some people just fine, but for me it gets boring as fuck.

True, a lot of trial-level lit work is annoying, but I appreciate the variety and the interaction with other attorneys. But, again, it just depends on your preferences. One of my COA co-clerks was really smart and really awkward. He wanted nothing more than to be locked in a room writing appellate briefs 10 hours a day. He got a job doing that in an appellate practice group in DC, and he seems content. To each his own.

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Desert Fox
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:53 pm

DetroitRed wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Practicing attorney here.

Ignoring the appellate lit conversation, which is stupid, I could definitely understand someone wanting to go to H over a full ride at Duke. There are long-term career benefits to going to H that might outweigh the 175k cost, and a lot of people just want to say they went to H (which has to count for something, I suppose). When I see H on a lateral candidate's resume, I definitely give them props either consciously or subconsciously for going to an awesome school. That said, I think Coif or magna at a T10 might trump no honors at H (and I think my firm has a GPA cutoff for H around or slightly above the median mark or something, so this might not even be the kind of candidate whose resume I would ever see).


Yes, so this was basically the answer I wanted.

I didn't realize what a carnal sin it was to declare an interest in a particular, and apparently **quite** competitive, field of law.


Very rational thinking here.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby BizBro » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:55 pm

Dog wrote:There's nothing fallacious about adding relevant info in predicting class rank. An estimate that uses relevant info such as GPA and LSAT will be more accurate than one that just assumes median for everyone. While the difference in students at Duke and H might not seem significant, median students and top 20% students at a school may not seem significantly different either. Small advantages help.

Also, being top 10% at Duke does not make you a "real safe bet" at top 10% at Harvard, especially if you're towards the bottom of that 10%.

If you factor something like 10% increased employment odds into your decision, it's not absurd to consider small class rank advantages. What if easier class rank cancels out 5% of that advantage? That's 50%. That's huge.



This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. LSAT and gpa do not correlate to class rank at a t10 school. Know tons of full riders at CCN at median or BELOW.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby bearsfan23 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:58 pm

Has OP explained WHY he wants to appellate lit? As others have pointed out, its not a realistic goal given that the odds are stacked against you even if you go to HYS and do a COA clerkship. Its pretty impossible for anyone to give substantive advice if OP can't say anything more than "I like it and you'll never understand".

OP, there are plenty of law students and especially practicing attorneys on here who could give you useful advice if you explained your actual career goals a little more.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby TFALAWL » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:58 pm

Generally speaking, I think Duke over UVA is easy (though I would still take H, b/c I'm less debt-averse).
Notwithstanding, to play devil's advocate, here are some arguments for UVA over Duke (I'm not convinced by any of them though)

1. UVA has better clerkship stats
2. UVA's internal moot court competition (Lille) is probably a little more prestigious than other similar schools' internal moot courts
3. Closer proximity to DC --> not sure if this makes any difference
4. UVA used to have a program w/ state appellate judges, whereby they gave LLM's. As a result, it's fairly easy to get summer 1L internships w/ these judges.

BL: If I were dead-set on appellate, I would maybe place a 10-15k premium over Duke for these attributes. However, 45k more would be ridiculous

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:00 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Oh, I agree that there are a lot of very valid reasons why the job would be incredibly difficult, and I don't fault anyone for deciding they don't want to do it. I certainly couldn't do it. I was just a little struck by talking particularly about low pay and a location you don't like, because presumably you know that going in. (The other particular problems, I'm sure you know they're possibilities before you start, but you don't really know what you'll get or how you'll deal with it.)

(This is @nothingtosee.)

Location is a yes-and-no kind of thing. At least how it worked when I did TFA (close to a decade ago now) was that you pick like 5-6 cities and they place you. So you can angle for the ones you like but the chances of you getting sent to a B (or C, or D)-choice aren't bad. And if you know you really want to do TFA, you're likely to put up with the sub-par location in order to have the experience.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:01 pm

TFALAWL wrote:1. UVA has better clerkship stats

You sure?

http://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2014/ ... -placement

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby TFALAWL » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:02 pm

In addition, like most posters said it's almost impossible to score a gig as full-time appellate litigator. With that said, I've heard doing some state appellate pro bono on the side is not that difficult for junior associates.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby TFALAWL » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:03 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
TFALAWL wrote:1. UVA has better clerkship stats

You sure?

http://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2014/ ... -placement


Touche. I guess my school has brain-washed me about how great our clerking opportunities are

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20160810
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:03 pm

rpupkin wrote:
SBL wrote:To be fair to OP, appellate lit is tons better than regular lit since you don't have to fuck with discovery/doc review.

It really depends on the individual. I do about a 80/20 mix of regular lit and appellate lit, and I think I'd go crazy if my whole life was appellate lit. Remember in undergrad (or law school) when you had several long papers due at the end of the semester? Appellate lit kinda feels like that all the time. Plus, you mostly work for days at a time in your office without really talking to anyone. That suits some people just fine, but for me it gets boring as fuck.

True, a lot of trial-level lit work is annoying, but I appreciate the variety and the interaction with other attorneys. But, again, it just depends on your preferences. One of my COA co-clerks was really smart and really awkward. He wanted nothing more than to be locked in a room writing appellate briefs 10 hours a day. He got a job doing that in an appellate practice group in DC, and he seems content. To each his own.

I also have about an 80/20 mix going on right now (though it's usually more like 100/0 general) and I love the appellate work. No discovery, lots of writing, focused issues, no surprises, no discovery, and, most importantly, a lack of discovery. (Discovery is the worst.) I get the point about it being less social but since it's a small percentage of my workload that's a non-issue for me at this time. I would switch to a 100% appellate practice in a heartbeat if it wasn't a unicorn though.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:04 pm

SBL wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
SBL wrote:To be fair to OP, appellate lit is tons better than regular lit since you don't have to fuck with discovery/doc review.

It really depends on the individual. I do about a 80/20 mix of regular lit and appellate lit, and I think I'd go crazy if my whole life was appellate lit. Remember in undergrad (or law school) when you had several long papers due at the end of the semester? Appellate lit kinda feels like that all the time. Plus, you mostly work for days at a time in your office without really talking to anyone. That suits some people just fine, but for me it gets boring as fuck.

True, a lot of trial-level lit work is annoying, but I appreciate the variety and the interaction with other attorneys. But, again, it just depends on your preferences. One of my COA co-clerks was really smart and really awkward. He wanted nothing more than to be locked in a room writing appellate briefs 10 hours a day. He got a job doing that in an appellate practice group in DC, and he seems content. To each his own.

I also have about an 80/20 mix going on right now (though it's usually more like 100/0 general) and I love the appellate work. No discovery, lots of writing, focused issues, no surprises, no discovery, and, most importantly, a lack of discovery. (Discovery is the worst.) I get the point about it being less social but since it's a small percentage of my workload that's a non-issue for me at this time. I would switch to a 100% appellate practice in a heartbeat if it wasn't a unicorn though.


SBL what year did you graduate harvard law.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby rpupkin » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:04 pm

TFALAWL wrote:Touche. I guess my school has brain-washed me about how great our clerking opportunities are

Along the same lines, here's some friendly advice: don't ever again suggest that your school's moot court competition "is a little more prestigious than other similar schools' internal moot courts." Just don't.

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20160810
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
SBL what year did you graduate harvard law.

lol at me going to smart people schools

greentea123
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby greentea123 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:18 pm

BizBro wrote:
Dog wrote:There's nothing fallacious about adding relevant info in predicting class rank. An estimate that uses relevant info such as GPA and LSAT will be more accurate than one that just assumes median for everyone. While the difference in students at Duke and H might not seem significant, median students and top 20% students at a school may not seem significantly different either. Small advantages help.

Also, being top 10% at Duke does not make you a "real safe bet" at top 10% at Harvard, especially if you're towards the bottom of that 10%.

If you factor something like 10% increased employment odds into your decision, it's not absurd to consider small class rank advantages. What if easier class rank cancels out 5% of that advantage? That's 50%. That's huge.



This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. LSAT and gpa do not correlate to class rank at a t10 school. Know tons of full riders at CCN at median or BELOW.


I was lucky enough to be awarded the Hamilton, but posts like this make me really nervous about accepting it

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:20 pm

greentea123 wrote:I was lucky enough to be awarded the Hamilton, but posts like this make me really nervous about accepting it

That's because, just like the OP of this thread, you're desperately looking for any reason to turn down a T14 full ride in favor of Harvard Law.

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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Lions1913 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:25 pm

.
Last edited by Lions1913 on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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