H v. T10 for appellate lit

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What should DetroitRed choose?

HLS (~150-175k debt at graduation)
37
28%
Columbia (~100k debt at graduation - Butler)
4
3%
Duke (0 debt at graduation - Mordecai)
84
64%
UVA (~45k debt at graduation)
7
5%
 
Total votes: 132

greentea123
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby greentea123 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:29 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
greentea123 wrote:I was lucky enough to be awarded the Hamilton, but posts like this make me really nervous about accepting it

That's because, just like the OP of this thread, you're desperately looking for any reason to turn down a T14 full ride in favor of Harvard Law.


That's a good reality check, thank you

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BizBro
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby BizBro » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:58 pm

greentea123 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
greentea123 wrote:I was lucky enough to be awarded the Hamilton, but posts like this make me really nervous about accepting it

That's because, just like the OP of this thread, you're desperately looking for any reason to turn down a T14 full ride in favor of Harvard Law.


That's a good reality check, thank you


I'd still take the full ride t14, especially the hamilton, if I were you, regardless of class rank outcome.

kaiser
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby kaiser » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:09 pm

If it were a Hamilton vs. H at full price, it wouldn't even warrant a TLS poll/thread. THats an incredibly easy choice.

timbs4339
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:54 pm

Lions1913 wrote:Do you need SCOTUS to do appellate lit? Is it such a unicorn goal, or was it OP's plan that made it unicorn?


Absolutely not. You need SCOTUS to work in the appellate group of an extremely prestigious above-market paying DC biglaw firm/litigation boutique. Like I said above, if you really want to do appellate work you apply for a job in the appeals bureau of a DA or PD office, or maybe if you are in a state that hires them the state SG's office.

I get the sense that if most 0Ls that want appellate lit were put to the choice between working as an ADA doing appellate work or working in general biglaw lit and maybe getting to cite check a brief or do some pro bono appeals they'd choose the latter.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Desert Fox
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:56 pm

Even the scotus clerks at my firm do like 60% shit lit.

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052220152
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 052220152 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:08 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Even the scotus clerks at my firm do like 60% shit lit.


do they review prestigious documents too?

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TFALAWL
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby TFALAWL » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:17 pm

rpupkin wrote:
TFALAWL wrote:Touche. I guess my school has brain-washed me about how great our clerking opportunities are

Along the same lines, here's some friendly advice: don't ever again suggest that your school's moot court competition "is a little more prestigious than other similar schools' internal moot courts." Just don't.


Fair enough. Though, I don't participate in it at all -- I just heard that UVA is super known for it. My point is that each T-14 has at least one "unicorney" thing going for it, and to my knowledge that Lille moot court is somewhat famous, and looks good for clerking.

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TFALAWL
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby TFALAWL » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:19 pm

Lions1913 wrote:Do you need SCOTUS to do appellate lit? Is it such a unicorn goal, or was it OP's plan that made it unicorn?


From what my profs have said, 1. SCOTUS = guaranteed D.C. appellate boutique of your choice 2. COA = maybe. Consider the fact that it's incredibly difficult even at HYS to get COA, and you can see just how hard this work is to get

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rpupkin
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby rpupkin » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:26 pm

TFALAWL wrote:Fair enough. Though, I don't participate in it at all -- I just heard that UVA is super known for it. My point is that each T-14 has at least one "unicorney" thing going for it, and to my knowledge that Lille moot court is somewhat famous, and looks good for clerking.

I clerked in DC (and one of my co-clerks was a UVA grad), and I didn't even know that UVA had a moot court competition. I'm sure it's a great competition and all, and I think people who want to do moot court should do it, but I seriously, seriously doubt that UVA's moot court competition is viewed any differently than the moot court competitions at Michigan, Berkeley, NYU, GULC, wherever.

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20160810
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:47 pm

Jim Jones wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Even the scotus clerks at my firm do like 60% shit lit.


do they review prestigious documents too?

Privilege logs are fucking brilliant

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Desert Fox
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Jim Jones wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Even the scotus clerks at my firm do like 60% shit lit.


do they review prestigious documents too?


Both are partners but both had to develope general lit skills to do make it. And half the appellate is pro boner work.

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TFALAWL
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby TFALAWL » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:09 pm

rpupkin wrote:
TFALAWL wrote:Fair enough. Though, I don't participate in it at all -- I just heard that UVA is super known for it. My point is that each T-14 has at least one "unicorney" thing going for it, and to my knowledge that Lille moot court is somewhat famous, and looks good for clerking.

I clerked in DC (and one of my co-clerks was a UVA grad), and I didn't even know that UVA had a moot court competition. I'm sure it's a great competition and all, and I think people who want to do moot court should do it, but I seriously, seriously doubt that UVA's moot court competition is viewed any differently than the moot court competitions at Michigan, Berkeley, NYU, GULC, wherever.


Good point, I'll re-phrase. As far as UVA goes, ( I can't speak for any other schools), if OP goes to UVA and participates in Lille, he/she will have opportunities to network with federal judges. If he makes it to the final, it will be arbitrated by a circuit judge --> arguably a networking gold-mine. If he/she wins, he/she will get cash. I second your point that Moot Court is good to do if you want to do appellate (however remote that chance may be), and perhaps others could weigh in on the moot court opportunities at their school, as I think it is a substantial soft for fringe candidates who strive for appellate lit. Cheers!

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:42 pm

I'm pretty sure it's extremely common to have the local federal judges judge schools' moot court competitions.

Cogburn87
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Cogburn87 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:51 pm

TFALAWL wrote:Good point, I'll re-phrase. As far as UVA goes, ( I can't speak for any other schools), if OP goes to UVA and participates in Lille, he/she will have opportunities to network with federal judges. If he makes it to the final, it will be arbitrated by a circuit judge --> arguably a networking gold-mine. If he/she wins, he/she will get cash. I second your point that Moot Court is good to do if you want to do appellate (however remote that chance may be), and perhaps others could weigh in on the moot court opportunities at their school, as I think it is a substantial soft for fringe candidates who strive for appellate lit. Cheers!

You are vastly overestimating the value of moot court participation.

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Pneumonia
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Pneumonia » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:17 am

Cogburn87 wrote:
TFALAWL wrote:Good point, I'll re-phrase. As far as UVA goes, ( I can't speak for any other schools), if OP goes to UVA and participates in Lille, he/she will have opportunities to network with federal judges. If he makes it to the final, it will be arbitrated by a circuit judge --> arguably a networking gold-mine. If he/she wins, he/she will get cash. I second your point that Moot Court is good to do if you want to do appellate (however remote that chance may be), and perhaps others could weigh in on the moot court opportunities at their school, as I think it is a substantial soft for fringe candidates who strive for appellate lit. Cheers!

You are vastly overestimating the value of moot court participation.


For real. Even ignoring the series of "if-->then's," this moot court sounds thoroughly average. UVA certainly has an amazing moot court experience, but so do other T14's.

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jbagelboy
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:59 am

greentea123 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
greentea123 wrote:I was lucky enough to be awarded the Hamilton, but posts like this make me really nervous about accepting it

That's because, just like the OP of this thread, you're desperately looking for any reason to turn down a T14 full ride in favor of Harvard Law.


That's a good reality check, thank you


Take the hamilton and never look back. Contrary to the post you referenced, Hamilton recipients do very well at cls, and moreover, even if you were at median you'd still get the same great firm job you'd have at another slightly higher ranked school at median.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:34 pm

Take the Hamilton

At every school recipients of a named full scholarship are likely to perform above median

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BizBro
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby BizBro » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:22 pm

I think the point is that I would still rather take the Hamilton and be below median at CLS than pay $ to be median at H.

FlamingDragon
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby FlamingDragon » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:51 pm

Saying that you want to do appellate litigation before entering law school, and making decisions based on that assumption, is IDIOTIC. You have no idea what AL entails, and I don't care if you worked in a law firm for the past 90 years. That said, making a decision based on (as people here have poitned out correctly) the 5-10% clerkship chance advantage Harvard gives you would be foolish.

Take Duke, an excellent school, with no debt without a question. HLS will indeed be a higher caliber student, even if just by a bit, allowing you to do better in your class at Duke. Also, you can put on your resume taht you have a named full scholarship and that basically will indicate you were strong enough to get into HYSCCN anyways to employers.

I go to a top 5 school and I cannot emphasize enough how important: (1) not having debt it, (2) doing well in your class, and (3) playing the field in terms of practice area and figuring out what oyu want from experience, not just from some amorphous notion of prestige (which I'm 99% sure is why you want to to app. lit). There is literally a great chance you might join the corporate clinic at Duke and love it, after hating writing your research memo (lit. focused) your first semester.

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bearsfan23
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby bearsfan23 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:19 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Take the Hamilton

At every school recipients of a named full scholarship are likely to perform above median


Wtf, do you have any support for this? Stop giving terrible advice

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LetsGoMets
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:28 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
greentea123 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
greentea123 wrote:I was lucky enough to be awarded the Hamilton, but posts like this make me really nervous about accepting it

That's because, just like the OP of this thread, you're desperately looking for any reason to turn down a T14 full ride in favor of Harvard Law.


That's a good reality check, thank you


Take the hamilton and never look back. Contrary to the post you referenced, Hamilton recipients do very well at cls, and moreover, even if you were at median you'd still get the same great firm job you'd have at another slightly higher ranked school at median.


Is there any thinking on why this is? It seems like it might be somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that most Hamiltons have extremely high numbers coming in, so are maybe more likely to do somewhat better than their peers for that reason ... although with all of the recent discussion about how random 1L grades are, and how undergrad and LSAT performance is a poor predictor of performance (at least within T14s), I'm not sure how much that hypothesis holds up anyway.

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jbagelboy
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:55 pm

I want to be clear. I am not suggesting a correlation between LSAT score and law school exam performance. This has been disproven as a motivating factor in school selection repeatedly.

A hamilton or rubenstein recipient is not just a set of numbers. Only a couple dozen are handed out each year from a pool of many hundreds of 174+/3.8+ candidates and the selection criteria include additional indicia of high performance and ability beyond how well you padded your college GPA with political science seminars or how many powerscore classes your parents could afford. These won't be enough (although there's no set recipe for that 'something more', it could just be growing up in mississippi for example).

One odd responsibility that comes with the territory of involvement in campus life is that I've seen hundreds of resumes of incoming and current 1L students (who list their merit scholarships rather conspicuously) and they come from great schools, have additional degrees, substantive work experience, consistent leadership, publications, fellowships, ect. And they "do very well" in a more general sense at the school because they can impress and perform academically and otherwise in ways that make substantive differences both to their law school experience and future employment. At a school where you'll get a great job nearly regardless of your grades, career advancement takes different shapes. I'm not talking about raw striverism so much as drawing on prior experiences, expertise, creativity, maturity, or whatever else.

Does all of this combined help "get better grades" too? I would say probably yes, but in an environment where everyone's bright there's no hard and fast rules.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:01 pm

jbagelboy wrote:I want to be clear. I am not suggesting a correlation between LSAT score and law school exam performance. This has been disproven as a motivating factor in school selection repeatedly.

A hamilton or rubenstein recipient is not just a set of numbers. Only a couple dozen are handed out each year from a pool of many hundreds of 174+/3.8+ candidates and the selection criteria include additional indicia of high performance and ability beyond how well you padded your college GPA with political science seminars or how many powerscore classes your parents could afford. These won't be enough (although there's no set recipe for that 'something more', it could just be growing up in mississippi for example).

One odd responsibility that comes with the territory of involvement in campus life is that I've seen hundreds of resumes of incoming and current 1L students (who list their merit scholarships rather conspicuously) and they come from great schools, have additional degrees, substantive work experience, consistent leadership, publications, fellowships, ect. And they "do very well" in a more general sense at the school because they can impress and perform academically and otherwise in ways that make substantive differences both to their law school experience and future employment. At a school where you'll get a great job nearly regardless of your grades, career advancement takes different shapes. I'm not talking about raw striverism so much as drawing on prior experiences, expertise, creativity, maturity, or whatever else.

Does all of this combined help "get better grades" too? I would say probably yes, but in an environment where everyone's bright there's no hard and fast rules.


Thanks, this is really helpful. Was confused by your original statement because I've read exactly what you said about LSAT score and exams so many times across TLS, but your longer explanation about what it means to "do very well" beyond just grades clears that up quite a bit.

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DetroitRed
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby DetroitRed » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:04 am

Would choosing HLS over C/C/Lower T-14 make a significant difference in the post-Biglaw job search? I can imagine the network might help, but how much is that network advantage worth?

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smaug
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Re: H v. T10 for appellate lit

Postby smaug » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:29 am

DetroitRed wrote:Would choosing HLS over C/C/Lower T-14 make a significant difference in the post-Biglaw job search? I can imagine the network might help, but how much is that network advantage worth?

Just go to Harvard. It's the answer you're fishing for.

The direct answer to your question is "whatever it is worth, it is not worth 200k."




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