Temple vs Villanova

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Aquila
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Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:52 pm

Accepted to both
Full-ride for Villanova
15 out of 21 a year for Temple (Will be asking for a reconsideration shortly)
Will not give out GPA/LSAT so retake is not an answer
COA will be very small as I will be taking out very small, if any loans for COA
Lifelong resident of PA
Also got full-ride to PSU and drexel but not really considering them

Goals- pay off undergrad debt quickly, would like to eventually open up own firm down the line
would be interested working at mid to biglaw initially but not long term
Open to different types of law, have some internship experience in land use and criminal defense
Overall, modest goals in general
Looking to stay in PA- long term


Thoughts and Opinions welcome! :D

BigZuck
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:10 pm

PA337 wrote:Accepted to both
Full-ride for Villanova
15 out of 21 a year for Temple (Will be asking for a reconsideration shortly)
Will not give out GPA/LSAT so retake is not an answer
COA will be very small as I will be taking out very small, if any loans for COA
Lifelong resident of PA
Also got full-ride to PSU and drexel but not really considering them

Goals- pay off undergrad debt quickly, would like to eventually open up own firm down the line
would be interested working at mid to biglaw initially but not long term
Open to different types of law, have some internship experience in land use and criminal defense
Overall, modest goals in general
Looking to stay in PA- long term


Thoughts and Opinions welcome! :D


Schools don't align with your goals

Retake or don't go

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Aquila
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:18 pm

BigZuck wrote:
PA337 wrote:Accepted to both
Full-ride for Villanova
15 out of 21 a year for Temple (Will be asking for a reconsideration shortly)
Will not give out GPA/LSAT so retake is not an answer
COA will be very small as I will be taking out very small, if any loans for COA
Lifelong resident of PA
Also got full-ride to PSU and drexel but not really considering them

Goals- pay off undergrad debt quickly, would like to eventually open up own firm down the line
would be interested working at mid to biglaw initially but not long term
Open to different types of law, have some internship experience in land use and criminal defense
Overall, modest goals in general
Looking to stay in PA- long term


Thoughts and Opinions welcome! :D


Schools don't align with your goals

Retake or don't go


what part of goals, didn't say mid-biglaw was a necessity

BigZuck
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:27 pm

PA337 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
PA337 wrote:Accepted to both
Full-ride for Villanova
15 out of 21 a year for Temple (Will be asking for a reconsideration shortly)
Will not give out GPA/LSAT so retake is not an answer
COA will be very small as I will be taking out very small, if any loans for COA
Lifelong resident of PA
Also got full-ride to PSU and drexel but not really considering them

Goals- pay off undergrad debt quickly, would like to eventually open up own firm down the line
would be interested working at mid to biglaw initially but not long term
Open to different types of law, have some internship experience in land use and criminal defense
Overall, modest goals in general
Looking to stay in PA- long term


Thoughts and Opinions welcome! :D


Schools don't align with your goals

Retake or don't go


what part of goals, didn't say mid-biglaw was a necessity


Big law is a lofty ambition, much too lofty for regional schools like these

What do you mean by mid law? Can you link to some websites of the types of firms you have in mind?

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Aquila
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:36 pm

BigZuck wrote:
PA337 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
PA337 wrote:Accepted to both
Full-ride for Villanova
15 out of 21 a year for Temple (Will be asking for a reconsideration shortly)
Will not give out GPA/LSAT so retake is not an answer
COA will be very small as I will be taking out very small, if any loans for COA
Lifelong resident of PA
Also got full-ride to PSU and drexel but not really considering them

Goals- pay off undergrad debt quickly, would like to eventually open up own firm down the line
would be interested working at mid to biglaw initially but not long term
Open to different types of law, have some internship experience in land use and criminal defense
Overall, modest goals in general
Looking to stay in PA- long term


Thoughts and Opinions welcome! :D


Schools don't align with your goals

Retake or don't go


what part of goals, didn't say mid-biglaw was a necessity


Big law is a lofty ambition, much too lofty for regional schools like these

What do you mean by mid law? Can you link to some websites of the types of firms you have in mind?


Midlaw might be a misnomer to what I mean. Any private practice/firm that is stable enough to sustain new associates I would be interested in. I don't have specific firms in mind.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:40 pm

How much undergrad debt do you have.

"Midlaw" is generally not a thing from these kind of schools. Biglaw is most certainly not gonna happen. If you want a job like that (you pretty surely do) you're going to have to go to a better school, meaning you've got to retake.

But if you wouldn't graduate with more than say 60K total in the hole, and if you're fine with hustling and working your ass for a job that pays 50-60K, max, and can live with a very real and serious possibility that you'll never become an attorney and would have effectively wasted three years, then I suppose your preference between the two is OK.

If you want to have better odds at getting any job, and some legit odds at getting a well-paying job, you need to retake.

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ronanOgara
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby ronanOgara » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:45 pm

PA337 wrote:Accepted to both
Full-ride for Villanova
15 out of 21 a year for Temple (Will be asking for a reconsideration shortly)
Will not give out GPA/LSAT so retake is not an answer
COA will be very small as I will be taking out very small, if any loans for COA
Lifelong resident of PA
Also got full-ride to PSU and drexel but not really considering them

Goals- pay off undergrad debt quickly, would like to eventually open up own firm down the line
would be interested working at mid to biglaw initially but not long term
Open to different types of law, have some internship experience in land use and criminal defense
Overall, modest goals in general
Looking to stay in PA- long term


Thoughts and Opinions welcome! :D


Where in PA are you from? Are you looking to stay in Philly? How much UG debt do you have?
From the info you provided, I'd go Villanova--Temple isn't worth the extra $$ (employment stats are too similar)
Just because I'm a student..why not PSU and Drexel?

BigZuck
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:47 pm

Before saying you want something you have to make sure it exists and to what degree it is attainable.

These schools are fine for legitimately modest ambitions: small firm/local gov, things like that.

So your numbers are, what? 160/3.8ish? Probably more like 3.9ish? If you want a shot at big law in Philly then retake and go to Penn on a good scholarship.

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ronanOgara
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby ronanOgara » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:50 pm

BigZuck wrote:Before saying you want something you have to make sure it exists and to what degree it is attainable.

These schools are fine for legitimately modest ambitions: small firm/local gov, things like that.

So your numbers are, what? 160/3.8ish? Probably more like 3.9ish? If you want a shot at big law in Philly then retake and go to Penn on a good scholarship.


I think if he wants "a shot," he can get that at Temple/Nova/Drexel/RU-C because that's what they give you--a shot. If you want to ensure you get Philly Big Law, go to Penn.

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Aquila
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:53 pm

BigZuck wrote:Before saying you want something you have to make sure it exists and to what degree it is attainable.

These schools are fine for legitimately modest ambitions: small firm/local gov, things like that.

So your numbers are, what? 160/3.8ish? Probably more like 3.9ish? If you want a shot at big law in Philly then retake and go to Penn on a good scholarship.


LSAT and GPA are both a bit lower than predicted. I don't understand why no one realizes that student debt clock will start if people take a year off to retake. For some, like myself, that would prevent me from being able to feasibly go to law school

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eriedoctrine
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby eriedoctrine » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:53 pm

Retake.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:57 pm

ronanOgara wrote:I think if he wants "a shot," he can get that at Temple/Nova/Drexel/RU-C because that's what they give you--a shot. If you want to ensure you get Philly Big Law, go to Penn.

They each give you "a shot" at being unemployed, too. Like a 50% one. See, e.g., http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/pennstate/2013/; http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/villanova/2013/; http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/drexel/2013/; http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/temple/2013/

Also, he doesn't just want "a shot" at it. It's likely the reason he's going. Basically every 0L here who says they only have a passing interest in biglaw are only saying that because they do not want to retake. I did it, too.

BigZuck
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:58 pm

ronanOgara wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Before saying you want something you have to make sure it exists and to what degree it is attainable.

These schools are fine for legitimately modest ambitions: small firm/local gov, things like that.

So your numbers are, what? 160/3.8ish? Probably more like 3.9ish? If you want a shot at big law in Philly then retake and go to Penn on a good scholarship.


I think if he wants "a shot," he can get that at Temple/Nova/Drexel/RU-C because that's what they give you--a shot. If you want to ensure you get Philly Big Law, go to Penn.


That's an unacceptably small shot IMO, not worth actually attending for that shot

I would only go if my sights were firmly set on something with a decent chance of attainment

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:59 pm

PA337 wrote:LSAT and GPA are both a bit lower than predicted. I don't understand why no one realizes that student debt clock will start if people take a year off to retake. For some, like myself, that would prevent me from being able to feasibly go to law school

This is a huge red flag. How much undergrad debt do you have? Tell us.

Going to an average law school with pretty poor employment prospects so as to avoid your undergraduate debt is a just a fantastically bad idea.

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Aquila
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:00 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:LSAT and GPA are both a bit lower than predicted. I don't understand why no one realizes that student debt clock will start if people take a year off to retake. For some, like myself, that would prevent me from being able to feasibly go to law school

This is a huge red flag. How much undergrad debt do you have? Tell us.

Going to an average law school with pretty poor employment prospects so as to avoid your undergraduate debt is a just a fantastically bad idea.


about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:06 pm

PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.

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ronanOgara
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby ronanOgara » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:12 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.



Where are you getting this 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney? I know what LST says, but aren't those stats based on 9 months after graduating? Are you aware of a study that shows once you fail to obtain an attorney job within 9 months of graduating, you will never be an attorney?

Not trying to attack you--but I've seen that never language tossed around before and I'm curious as to where that's coming from.

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Aquila
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:18 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.


If I took a year off, it would make it difficult to not default on payments for students loans when I would have to continue to pay them off once I started law school. Assuming I got a good enough LSAT to go T14, I can't go to law school as I am defaulting on school loans

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:22 pm

ronanOgara wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.



Where are you getting this 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney? I know what LST says, but aren't those stats based on 9 months after graduating? Are you aware of a study that shows once you fail to obtain an attorney job within 9 months of graduating, you will never be an attorney?

Not trying to attack you--but I've seen that never language tossed around before and I'm curious as to where that's coming from.

They are from nine months out. There isn't exactly a market for people with zero experience who were completely shut out of the profession for almost a full year, and by the time nine months has passed, the next crop has almost graduated and most employers would rather have a fresh grad over someone who has done nothing for a year/proved themselves essentially incapable of landing a job.

The number is changing to ten months this year FWIW. I really doubt a significant percentage of these graduates go on to find JD-required work (outside of doc review), but, no, there is not really any data either way.

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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby mvp99 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:27 pm

Don't retake. A friend of mine went to one of these schools. He joined a bar and is now working. The bar is two blocks away from his home and he earns 15-20 an hour in tips!

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:28 pm

PA337 wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.

If I took a year off, it would make it difficult to not default on payments for students loans when I would have to continue to pay them off once I started law school. Assuming I got a good enough LSAT to go T14, I can't go to law school as I am defaulting on school loans

First, if you took a year off (and were living for free, assuming you can as you calculated zero for your LS COA), you could massively attack that debt, even if you were just waiting tables or something. Second, though I am relatively unaware of how repayment works if you go back to school (as I did the year off to kill the debt thing), can you not get a deferment? I thought grad school was basically automatic for getting one.

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Aquila
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.

If I took a year off, it would make it difficult to not default on payments for students loans when I would have to continue to pay them off once I started law school. Assuming I got a good enough LSAT to go T14, I can't go to law school as I am defaulting on school loans

First, if you took a year off (and were living for free, assuming you can as you calculated zero for your LS COA), you could massively attack that debt, even if you were just waiting tables or something. Second, though I am relatively unaware of how repayment works if you go back to school (as I did the year off to kill the debt thing), can you not get a deferment? I thought grad school was basically automatic for getting one.


I am unsure of deferment if you take time off.... probably something you and I should look into

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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby drs36 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:33 pm

PA337 wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.


If I took a year off, it would make it difficult to not default on payments for students loans when I would have to continue to pay them off once I started law school. Assuming I got a good enough LSAT to go T14, I can't go to law school as I am defaulting on school loans


As the poster above mentioned, your lenders will defer your undergrad loans while you are in law school, even the private ones. If it's not automatic, you simply call your lender and inform them you're starting grad school. You'll receive a deferment and cannot default.

I don't think Temple for free/really cheap is as bad as some are making it out to be...but a retake and Penn acceptance is a markedly better move.

drs36
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby drs36 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:35 pm

Deferment during grad school applies even if you take time off.

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Aquila
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Re: Temple vs Villanova

Postby Aquila » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:35 pm

drs36 wrote:
PA337 wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:
PA337 wrote:about 45k in debt, so nothing extreme, and debt won't increase to above a total of about 60k by the end of three years

All right. I don't get your wait it out=death logic but OK. Yeah, if you can go to one of these schools literally for free, and you are OK with a 50% chance of never getting a job as an attorney, and legitimately have modest goals and ambitions for your career, then I would sign off I guess.


If I took a year off, it would make it difficult to not default on payments for students loans when I would have to continue to pay them off once I started law school. Assuming I got a good enough LSAT to go T14, I can't go to law school as I am defaulting on school loans


As the poster above mentioned, your lenders will defer your undergrad loans while you are in law school, even the private ones. If it's not automatic, you simply call your lender and inform them you're starting grad school. You'll receive a deferment and cannot default.

I don't think Temple for free/really cheap is as bad as some are making it out to be...but a retake and Penn acceptance is a markedly better move.


Do lenders defer after a year of repayment tho in the case of taking a year off?




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