Hamilton/Vanderbilt/Mordecai vs H/S/C with outside grants Forum

[lefthandofdarkness]

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[schmelling]

Post removed.

[Tiago Splitter]

Chicago is obviously out without a full ride but all of the others are defensible. I'd probably go with Harvard or Stanford.

[runinthefront]

This is one of the rare times I would probably pick Harvard over a full ride the rest of the T-6 (minus Yale). You literally don't have one single bad option though--wow.

Enjoy

[Indy16]

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[ballcaps]

these are all very good options, of course.

H/S @80k total is godly though. i would take one of those.

[lefthandofdarkness]

Thanks, guys! What are some pluses Harvard has over Stanford, putting aside a preference for going to school on the east coast? And what makes H/S worth $70-80K more than Columbia or NYU?

[runinthefront]

Thanks, guys! What are some pluses Harvard has over Stanford, putting aside a preference for going to school on the east coast? And what makes H/S worth $70-80K more than Columbia or NYU?

the name Harvard

[ballcaps]

Thanks, guys! What are some pluses Harvard has over Stanford, putting aside a preference for going to school on the east coast?

the name Harvard

And what makes H/S worth $70-80K more than Columbia or NYU?

access to the most competitive clerkships, academia, and generally having an easier go of things.

that last part is significant imo.

[lashley]

If you are committed to PI then a Vanderbilt > Hamilton in my opinion. It seems like there is more institutional support for PI at NYU.

[runinthefront]

...If you ever choose to leave the legal world, the name Harvard (and Stanford, Yale, Columbia) will take you much farther in layman's land than NYU or Chicago will. I think that's worth the extra 80k, but it's all relative.

[runinthefront]

If you are committed to PI then a Vanderbilt > Hamilton in my opinion. It seems like there is more institutional support for PI at NYU.

This is an honest question, but I always wonder:

What PI jobs are easier to get from NYU than from Columbia? Does the CSO at NYU just know of more PI opportunities, or are PI organizations actively seeking NYU grads over Columbia grads? If both schools are equal in cost (effectively zero........wow, once again. Wow OP.) , why not take the 'prestige route?'

[jbagelboy]

Thanks, guys! What are some pluses Harvard has over Stanford, putting aside a preference for going to school on the east coast? And what makes H/S worth $70-80K more than Columbia or NYU?

the name Harvard

this is stupid

Congratulations on wonderful options OP.

Harvard and Stanford are different schools with different strengths and programming. People will tell you, "Harvard is a larger student body, so more courses, faculty, student organizations, clinical work, more international, its on a semester system, it has a larger range of grades, it feeds more predominantly in New York," ect.; "Stanford is smaller, which means less overall resources but more personal, less anonymous, closer faculty access per student leading to more immediate clerkship opportunities, feeds more into California (although this is not to undersell its nationwide reach)", ect. At that price differential it's more about soft factors and you really have to see for yourself.

Both provide some opportunities to a larger slice of the class than Columbia or NYU (a few more people will clerk, a few more people will go to slightly fancier firms or DOJ honors), but it's mostly overlap. That being said, $70-80K is a very comfortable debt level and I think taking Harvard or Stanford for the extra money can be justified. Strictly, those schools aren't *worth* that much money over CLS by any particular objective criteria, but I'd probably go to Stanford here anyway and that's entirely personal. It depends on your goals, geographic preferences and just how debt free you want to be.

[runinthefront]

jbagelboy you don't believe that the Harvard name is worth $70k in debtload?

[jbagelboy]

jbagelboy you don't believe that the Harvard name is worth $70k in debtload?

first, hell no. what is a name? You can have lots of fancy names on your resume. The only people who are going to see them and make any important decision will know exactly what they mean behind some facade of lay impression. why would anyone else who might not understand the substance of the name know or matter?

second, you were responding to "What makes harvard worth more than stanford," which was a $5k debt load. I acknowledge the substantive opportunities that might be available to some of the class at harvard and not another school are worth $70k, or easily more. But I still don't think some vague signaling to an indescribable constituency is worth that when you can point to any specific opportunity I can get from one school and not the other.

[runinthefront]

jbagelboy you don't believe that the Harvard name is worth $70k in debtload?

first, hell no. what is a name? You can have lots of fancy names on your resume. The only people who are going to see them and make any important decision will know exactly what they mean behind some facade of lay impression. why would anyone else who might not understand the substance of the name know or matter?

second, you were responding to "What makes harvard worth more than stanford," which was a $5k debt load. And I still don't think some vague signaling to an indescribable constituency is worth that when you can point to any specific opportunity I can get from one school and not the other.

ah. no, I wasn't clear. I was responding to H/S over NYU/Columbia. I think Stanford would be worth $80k but I'm not familiar with the lay prestige outside of the US (and I'm under the impression that it's not nearly as high as H/Y in the part of the east coast where I'm from)

I think that if OP finds himself/herself wanting to exit law in its entirety/work overseas, the Harvard name is worth $80k. I don't understand--doesn't your argument that more substantive opportunities slash the larger slice of the pie lend credence to the argument that the name Harvard holds more weight? Why else would employers pull deeper from the Harvard class?

I mean, this is all my opinion on the matter, but OP literally cannot end up in any bad position. he/she has made it

[jbagelboy]

jbagelboy you don't believe that the Harvard name is worth $70k in debtload?

first, hell no. what is a name? You can have lots of fancy names on your resume. The only people who are going to see them and make any important decision will know exactly what they mean behind some facade of lay impression. why would anyone else who might not understand the substance of the name know or matter?

second, you were responding to "What makes harvard worth more than stanford," which was a $5k debt load. And I still don't think some vague signaling to an indescribable constituency is worth that when you can point to any specific opportunity I can get from one school and not the other.

ah. no, I wasn't clear. I was responding to H/S over NYU/Columbia. I think Stanford would be worth $80k but I'm not familiar with the lay prestige outside of the US (and I'm under the impression that it's not nearly as high as H/Y in the part of the east coast where I'm from)

I think that if OP finds himself/herself wanting to exit law in its entirety/work overseas, the Harvard name is worth $80k. I don't understand--doesn't your argument that more substantive opportunities slash the larger slice of the pie lend credence to the argument that the name Harvard holds more weight? Why else would employers pull deeper from the Harvard class?

I mean, this is all my opinion on the matter, but OP literally cannot end up in any bad position. he/she has made it

this might just be a semantic difference. it depends on how careless we are about what "the name" signals here. To the extent that Harvard helps its students get the jobs they want through its extensive network and long standing relationships with certain employers such as firms, judges, government agencies and non-profits, who are more willing to interview and offer positions to Harvard Law students with certain grades and credentials than students at another school (Stanford and Columbia are very similar here, I mean a very different school), then yes "the name" is worth quite a lot.

If you are just talking about what going to Harvard signals to someone about you in the abstract, having "the name" on your resume or saying it, with no connection to a substantive difference, then no, I find this of very little value. To me, when you say "the name Harvard" in isolation as a justification for borrowing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars from the federal government, to be repaid at high interest over many years -- I say this at risk of repetition to keep us in perspective -- it means the latter. What I'm saying is, don't get hung up on names and signaling, this "lay prestige" you keep referencing. Talk about what degrees have to offer.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

This is one of the rare situations where I think it makes sense to choose the debt
I would pick H

[pattonthicke]

OP you should create a poll. Your poll should look like the following:

I choose NYU/Columbia (I am currently paying 1,000 or more in student loans per month)
I choose Harvard/Yale (I am currently paying 1,000 or more in student loans per month)
I choose NYU/Columbia (I have never had to pay back student loan debt)
I choose Harvard/Yale(I have never had to pay back student loan debt)

People act like 75-80k is not a lot of money. Is it a good value to attend Harvard/Yale for this amount of money? Yes, a hell of a deal. But it is NOT worth paying this when you can go for free to freaking Columbia or NYU.

75-80k is about 1K per month for the next 10 years. Going to Harvard is cool and all but next time you go to the grocery store or get gas or take a vacation to Hawaii or go to the movies, you will not be able to submit your Harvard degree as a form of payment. They only except cash money.

You said you are interested in PI OP. How about this. Go to Columbia/NYU and use the extra 80k you would have spent on Harvard/Yale degree and donate it to your favorite PI org. This would have a better impact in the world than paying for some Harvard Prof to remodel their basement with your tuition dollars.

[abl]

OP you should create a poll. Your poll should look like the following:

I choose NYU/Columbia (I am currently paying 1,000 or more in student loans per month)
I choose Harvard/Yale (I am currently paying 1,000 or more in student loans per month)
I choose NYU/Columbia (I have never had to pay back student loan debt)
I choose Harvard/Yale(I have never had to pay back student loan debt)

People act like 75-80k is not a lot of money. Is it a good value to attend Harvard/Yale for this amount of money? Yes, a hell of a deal. But it is NOT worth paying this when you can go for free to freaking Columbia or NYU.

75-80k is about 1K per month for the next 10 years. Going to Harvard is cool and all but next time you go to the grocery store or get gas or take a vacation to Hawaii or go to the movies, you will not be able to submit your Harvard degree as a form of payment. They only except cash money.

You said you are interested in PI OP. How about this. Go to Columbia/NYU and use the extra 80k you would have spent on Harvard/Yale degree and donate it to your favorite PI org. This would have a better impact in the world than paying for some Harvard Prof to remodel their basement with your tuition dollars.

I had more debt than that and no, over 10 years with a hys degree, I don't think it's a lot of money. If you are pretty set on PI, this is easy: to go HS and don' look back. LRAPs make the effective COA identical.

[Tiago Splitter]

If you are pretty set on PI, this is easy: to go HS and don' look back. LRAPs make the effective COA identical.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "effective" but no, it's not identical. And I'm someone who'd take Harvard or Stanford. But let's not kid ourselves.

[Auxilio]

This should obviously be a very very very small portion of consideration, but you could factor in that a passed up hamilton/vanderbilt means one more person (without the 180,000 outside grant) has it available to them. While Harvard and Stanford are pretty easy to justify with the 180,000.
Having said that, I would still go with Columbia.

Also, I do not know how much of this you have to disclose, but is there any chance at some need based aid from Harvard/Stanford?

[BizBro]

HLS for no tuition is the easy answer here when you finish 1L with mediocre grades at Columbia/NYU. But as others said, it largely depends on what you actually want to do after law school.

[lefthandofdarkness]

HLS for no tuition is the easy answer here when you finish 1L with mediocre grades at Columbia/NYU. But as others said, it largely depends on what you actually want to do after law school.

Are you grouping Stanford in with Harvard here or do you think Harvard is the easy answer even over Stanford?

This should obviously be a very very very small portion of consideration, but you could factor in that a passed up hamilton/vanderbilt means one more person (without the 180,000 outside grant) has it available to them. While Harvard and Stanford are pretty easy to justify with the 180,000.
Having said that, I would still go with Columbia.

Also, I do not know how much of this you have to disclose, but is there any chance at some need based aid from Harvard/Stanford?

Putting aside the obvious ethical issues with claiming financial hardship when I have a large grant and others don't, the Need Access clearly asks about outside grants for 2015-2016. There's wiggle-room because the amount of the grant is not a fixed amount (it's based on how much I need after my chosen school makes its offer) but I don't imagine I'll get any aid from HS once they see it there. I think I can expect some aid from my parents, but right now I'm not sure exactly how much.

[Mack.Hambleton]

...If you ever choose to leave the legal world, the name Harvard (and Stanford, Yale, Columbia) will take you much farther in layman's land than NYU or Chicago will. I think that's worth the extra 80k, but it's all relative.

Lol this is dumb.