Going to law school in the Midwest with no ties Forum

[BigZuck]

I could maybe see an argument where someone without IL ties would be better off at Illinois rather than UChi or NU if they were Chicago or bust. I guess the logic would be that if they went to CHI/NU they might be looked at as an outsider trying to get back home/NYC, whereas if they went to Illinois obviously they are committed to work in Illunois cuz duh, that's the only market the school places in.

Not sure that's a very good argument but that's all I can think of.

Is Chicago really insular enough for ties to matter to that degree though? (Honest question, I have no idea)

Dunno

I've heard yes and no. Of course outsiders who got jobs will say no, outsiders who were shut out might say yes

All else being equal, I personally would roll with Chicago/NU. Just trying to be an advocate for the devil being yelled at I guess. I really don't know much about the market other than TLS generally saying it's tough.

[MarkfromWI]

Honestly, the answer is it depends.

What school?
How well you do?
What market?

I lived in Michigan. If you were going to try somewhere in Michigan, I would not think you would have a problem.

Chicago = if you went to Illinois, you would be fine. Chicago or Northwestern? You might have a issue

So, I would recommend, going to the regional school in the state you want to work in.

this is just terrible. where are you possibly getting these ideas from?

From the sounds of it, he's getting it from his pre-law advisor-- He's still in undergrad.

I've got a little time to do this. I'm still an undergrad and I'm not a junior, so I'd like to educate myself on this process.

My goals are not biglaw, although, I wouldn't be opposed to it if i had to do it until i got the loans paid. But my main goals, are a good law school with littlest debt possible, or a school that I would get a scholarship from. I'm wanting to have my own firm.

He's been spouting off nonsense all day

[Moneytrees]

I'll ask a more specific question: how do Notre Dame grads fare in Chicago? Obviously UChi and NU take a big chunk of those Biglaw jobs, but does Notre Dame have any traction in that market?

ND has been very generous this cycle. I'm in a bind because although my family is currently living in New England, I didn't grow up there and I'm not necessarily committed to staying there for the long term. I'm not even sure my parents will still be on the East coast by the time I graduate law school, since they are closing in on retirement and might move. I really like Chicago as a city, but obviously I'm still wary of not having ties to the Midwest. Not really sure what to do.

[thebobs1987]

I'll ask a more specific question: how do Notre Dame grads fare in Chicago? Obviously UChi and NU take a big chunk of those Biglaw jobs, but does Notre Dame have any traction in that market?

ND has been very generous this cycle. I'm in a bind because although my family is currently living in New England, I didn't grow up there and I'm not necessarily committed to staying there for the long term. I'm not even sure my parents will still be on the East coast by the time I graduate law school, since they are closing in on retirement and might move. I really like Chicago as a city, but obviously I'm still wary of not having ties to the Midwest. Not really sure what to do.

ND does well, along with UIUC they do the best of the non-t14 schools in Chicago. But still only 25-30% of the class gets big law so you shouldn't be expecting it from ND. As for ties in Chicago, if you go to ND and work your 1L summer in Chicago it would probably be enough for big law firms, but I don't know about smaller firms.

If you are big law or bust then you should only go to a t14. If you are cool with ending up making like 65k or less if you are not in the top 1/4 then ND with a big scholarship is a good deal

[huskies2015]

I'm in a similar situation as the OP, but coming from the west coast. Between ND (graduating debt around 30K) vs. Minn (little to no debt), what would you guys do? I'm not dead set on big law and I don't know how much I will like Minneapolis. Is the consensus that ND gives you more geographic flexibility? And is that worth the extra debt?

Sorry if this seems like i'm stealing the thread, but this seemed like a good place to post this question that I've been thinking about for a long time.

[Moneytrees]

Obviously I'm a 0L, but this seems like a no brainer in favor of ND. Notre Dame places decently in California and will give you a reasonable shot at Biglaw. Minnesota is a great school and has solid overall employment numbers, but it doesn't give you much of a chance at a Biglaw job. I would eat the extra debt in this case.

[BigZuck]

Why not go to a CA law school? I'm skeptical that CA big law firms are lining up to hire ND grads.

[huskies2015]

Why not go to a CA law school? I'm skeptical that CA big law firms are lining up to hire ND grads.

I didn't get much money at UCLA or USC, and I'm very debt averse. Rejected at Berkeley and Stanford (no surprise there).

[Moneytrees]

Why not go to a CA law school? I'm skeptical that CA big law firms are lining up to hire ND grads.

The numbers suggest that you probably have to kill it at ND to have a chance, but about 7% of grads ended up in California last year.

[BigZuck]

Why not go to a CA law school? I'm skeptical that CA big law firms are lining up to hire ND grads.

The numbers suggest that you probably have to kill it at ND to have a chance, but about 7% of grads ended up in California last year.

Unless I'm reading the data wrong they have like 86% of total grads "employed" with 6.5% employed in CA. That doesn't mean any of those 6.5% are "employed" as "lawyers." They could be "baristas" for all we know.

Even if all 12 kids were BIG LAWYERS I don't know that that's enough to say that ND really has much placement power in CA.

[MKC]

TBF, it could also be that not a lot of West Coast people go to Notre Dame.

[huskies2015]

TBF, it could also be that not a lot of West Coast people go to Notre Dame.

This is what I'm thinking. Since I have significant ties to both LA and Seattle, wouldn't this mean that I would have a great shot at any west coast firms that come to OCIs (assuming decent grades) compared to other ND students? Even if only a handful of firms interviewed, wouldn't they take someone with ties over someone without ties, all else being equal?

[Moneytrees]

I definitely don't want to argue that ND is a great choice for California job placement, but ND definitely has a stronger presence in California than its peers.

[Hikikomorist]

Why not go to a CA law school? I'm skeptical that CA big law firms are lining up to hire ND grads.

I didn't get much money at UCLA or USC, and I'm very debt averse. Rejected at Berkeley and Stanford (no surprise there).

Have you tried negotiating, especially with USC? Wouldn't USC and ND be peer schools?

[huskies2015]

Why not go to a CA law school? I'm skeptical that CA big law firms are lining up to hire ND grads.

I didn't get much money at UCLA or USC, and I'm very debt averse. Rejected at Berkeley and Stanford (no surprise there).

Have you tried negotiating, especially with USC? Wouldn't USC and ND be peer schools?

Not yet, but I'd be surprised if they matched. Plus, COL in LA is much higher. And ND gave me a very generous offer. I'm still waiting on Univ. of Washington's offer, which could make this an easy decision, but I don't have high hopes that it will be similar to other offers I've recieved.

[Wingtip88]

Have you checked this out?

http://law.nd.edu/careers/career-map/

[skers]

Going to school in the midwest is sufficient for somewhere like Chicago. The bigger issue is that Chicago is a relatively tough market and even w/ great grades, you can still strike out here. Playing games like "what if I'm x%" is just fucking retarded.

[Moneytrees]

I get your point, but from what I hear Boston's Biglaw is pretty tough to crack too. Even if you have ties in NE, Boston's legal market is small compared to Chicago and the same discussion about grades applies to schools like BC and BU.

[IsThisForReal]

I just want to double check what I think I got from the last few pages.

You guys are saying that a top student at WUSTL, with no other ties to the area, would have a hard time getting employed at St Louis BigLaw?

[cron1834]

I just want to double check what I think I got from the last few pages.

You guys are saying that a top student at WUSTL, with no other ties to the area, would have a hard time getting employed at St Louis BigLaw?

Lots of WUSTL people say this. Plus it's not packed with dummies, so just banking on being a top student is dumb.

OP, your goals and your options just don't align with each other. This is a frustrating thread for that reason. You need to reevaluate your goals or improve your options with a retake. Regional Biglaw is hard to get even with ties, let alone without them, from a mediocre school no less.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Do you want to go back to NYC?

I think if you're going to school in the Midwest at a regional school, that kinda is your tie. If you want to stay, that's even better. But I agree with the general consensus that if you go to a regional school (most schools outside the T14) then you should want to stay in that location.

I would be happy to stay in the Midwest, and would hope that law firms would consider my desire to stay+ 3 years of school to be sufficient to have established legitimate ties. But the issue that a lot of people have raised is that a lack of ties can put law firms off, which could be the death knell for somebody like me.

This only works if you go to truly regional schools. If you go to WUSTL, many of your classmates are going to want to workout outside of the the St. Louis/Mizzou area, AND employers know this. If you go to North Dakota State, no one will question your desire to have a career in North Dakota.

[hoos89]

I just want to double check what I think I got from the last few pages.

You guys are saying that a top student at WUSTL, with no other ties to the area, would have a hard time getting employed at St Louis BigLaw?

The #1 student in my class was flat out told during 1L OCI by some firms that he didn't have a shot. I'm sure it's been done, and perhaps if you make a concerted effort to generate ties (marry a St. Louisan, buy a house, whatever) it will mitigate that, but firms are very concerned about non-native students going to other markets. That concern is particularly real for top students because they will almost certainly have other options. I'm sure top students in the last few years without solid ties have gotten offers at Brian Cave or something, but if you're not from here, don't just expect St. Louis firms to roll over for you just because you're in the top 5%.

This only works if you go to truly regional schools. If you go to WUSTL, many of your classmates are going to want to workout outside of the the St. Louis/Mizzou area, AND employers know this. If you go to North Dakota State, no one will question your desire to have a career in North Dakota.

I'm not so sure about that. You wouldn't be as big of a flight risk, but you have to realize, for instance, that pretty much everyone going to SLU is from St. Louis. They have ties to the area and you will be at a disadvantage relative to your classmates.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Going to a non T14 school with the desire to work in Biglaw is retarded. Sorry that isn't PC.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I'm not so sure about that. You wouldn't be as big of a flight risk, but you have to realize, for instance, that pretty much everyone going to SLU is from St. Louis. They have ties to the area and you will be at a disadvantage relative to your classmates.

Person a. is from St. Louis, went to SLU. Employer thinks person a. would be a decent lawyer and might help the firm make money.
Person b. is from Guam, but went to SLU. Employer thinks person b. would be a decent lawyer and might offer the firm a fractionally better return on investment than person a.

Some people on this site appear to believe that person a. would still win. I respectfully disagree. Either you convinced an employer that your story makes sense or you didn't. If they believe you are staying local, absent some strange homer-ism, you are on equal footing with the guy who went to highschool down the street. I know some small-town folks often do possess this level of homer-ism, but I refuse to believe that attorneys in large metro areas base their hiring decisions on anything other than money, whether or not these attorneys are in metropolitan areas of the midwest or south.

Now, if these same attorneys prefer to hire locals because they believe that their local clients will appreciate working with local attorneys, that's different. That's essentially the same thing I'm saying; people do what is best for their pocket-books. Also, I don't know much about biglaw hiring, so please do not interpret my answer to encompass that area.

[BigZuck]

I'm not so sure about that. You wouldn't be as big of a flight risk, but you have to realize, for instance, that pretty much everyone going to SLU is from St. Louis. They have ties to the area and you will be at a disadvantage relative to your classmates.

Person a. is from St. Louis, went to SLU. Employer thinks person a. would be a decent lawyer and might help the firm make money.
Person b. is from Guam, but went to SLU. Employer thinks person b. would be a decent lawyer and might offer the firm a fractionally better return on investment than person a.

Some people on this site appear to believe that person a. would still win. I respectfully disagree. Either you convinced an employer that your story makes sense or you didn't. If they believe you are staying local, absent some strange homer-ism, you are on equal footing with the guy who went to highschool down the street. I know some small-town folks often do possess this level of homer-ism, but I refuse to believe that attorneys in large metro areas base their hiring decisions on anything other than money, whether or not these attorneys are in metropolitan areas of the midwest or south.

Now, if these same attorneys prefer to hire locals because they believe that their local clients will appreciate working with local attorneys, that's different. That's essentially the same thing I'm saying; people do what is best for their pocket-books. Also, I don't know much about biglaw hiring, so please do not interpret my answer to encompass that area.

While I understand the whole "Just do make a better pitch in your cover letter/screener bro" I don't think it's always that easy