UF Law v. CU Law

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KillingIt10
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UF Law v. CU Law

Postby KillingIt10 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:18 pm

I am in the process of deciding between these two schools. I have been accepted to CU and anticipate being accepted to UF (hopefully).

Based on my scores I won't get into any of the top 20 schools. Save the cynical comments. I am very interested in becoming an attorney and would like to practice criminal law.

I have lived in both Florida and Colorado in the past few years. I am relatively familiar with both states. I believe that both of these schools are similar in that they are the best law school in their respective regional markets. I am aware that UF competes with FSU - Tallahassee does not interest me.

Cost:

I am a FL resident. CU will cost me approx. $30k more than UF. All CU students get residency after 1L.

I get that both schools place primarily in-state for jobs. I am very happy with that. I love the outdoors and like the weather in both states. I would be happy living in either Florida or Colorado.

Questions:

1. Job Placement - Do either of these schools place particularly better for criminal law? Law Firms, DOJ, Clerkships, State Attorney, Public Defender. I get that FL is a much larger state than CO. Is this a substantial advantage or does all the competition from other schools make it equal?

2. Intern/Externships - How do both schools place for summer and year-round positions? Gainesville is more remote than Boulder/Denver. Does this make finding a position difficult - or do UF students just move during the summer.

3. Students - How would the students compare at each school. I am under the impression that UF attracts more students right out of college - many of whom are from UF undergrad. Does this make the social atmosphere difficult for those who came from elsewhere? I am not old (24) - but I will have worked for 3 years prior to starting law school. And despite being a FL resident, I have spent very little time in FL - all of my friends are elsewhere.

4. Location - How does Gainesville compare to Boulder. I get that FL is hot and muggy with beaches. CO is cold and dry with mountains. I ski and hike, surf and fish. No place exists with both. I am talking more about the immediate town. Does either one offer specific advantages in regards to bars, restaurants, activities? Does Gainesville ever feel remote/isolated. I do like that Boulder is less than an hour from the major city in the state. Does 2.5 hours from Tampa/Orlando feel too far?

I definitely appreciate any insight you have. Feel free to put in your personal experience.
Last edited by KillingIt10 on Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:44 am, edited 3 times in total.

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eriedoctrine
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby eriedoctrine » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:21 pm

Retake.
Gun to my head, UF.

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:25 pm

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

download the official pdf reports for each school's actual employment numbers and see for yourself

you should be looking at "full time/long term" legal jobs when calculating the employment outcomes at these schools. They're both pretty terrible for the debt you'll be incurring...

but no snarky comments from me--Good luck!

03152016
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:27 pm

those numbers don't look right to me

do you have the money already or would you need to borrow it

The Dark Shepard
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby The Dark Shepard » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:28 pm

Neither are worth it at that cost. COL will still be a minimum of 45k, and likely close to 60k.

Given your goals, neither school is a bad option, but you should retake and aim for money at both of them. A few LSAT points would do it
Last edited by The Dark Shepard on Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:29 pm

Brut wrote:those numbers don't look right to me

do you have the money already or would you need to borrow it


The number for UF is around the right range, Brut. OP is looking at roughly $116k debt (assuming 0% interest and 0% tuition increases) by graduation. So probably closer to ~150k.

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LeDique
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby LeDique » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:37 pm

I'll just add that it's not that hard to get a PD/DA position from CU. But who knows where you'll end up

03152016
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:39 pm

@run
i don't really buy 67k tho, he just multiplied current tuition by 3, doesn't work like that
though i do think your total coa estimate looks pretty reasonable

as for cu, i think he lands between 190-200k all in
i did some back of the envelope calculations factoring in standard expenses, loan fees, interest, deferment, modest COL and tuition inflation w/ 2 yrs resident tuition and got to 195k

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:42 pm

LeDique wrote:I'll just add that it's not that hard to get a PD/DA position from CU. But who knows where you'll end up


Idk man. Only 118/176 (67%) people out of the class of 2013 ended up with FT/LT legal jobs that weren't school funded. That's a good third of the class scrambling.

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:43 pm

Brut wrote:@run
i don't really buy 67k tho, he just multiplied current tuition by 3, doesn't work like that
though i do think your total coa estimate looks pretty reasonable

as for cu, i think he lands between 190-200k all in
i did some back of the envelope calculations factoring in standard expenses, loan fees, interest, deferment, modest COL and tuition inflation w/ 2 yrs resident tuition and got to 195k


OP 100% multiplied by 3, so my estimates assumed 0% interest and no annual tuition increases, which aren't realistic to begin with.

OP, if you notice, you have ~40 page views on your thread, but no one has voted...I'm assuming because no one is comfortable with possibly swaying you to go to either school. You should definitely sit out a year and/or retake.

The Dark Shepard
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby The Dark Shepard » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:45 pm

runinthefront wrote:
LeDique wrote:I'll just add that it's not that hard to get a PD/DA position from CU. But who knows where you'll end up


Idk man. Only 118/176 (67%) people out of the class of 2013 ended up with FT/LT legal jobs that weren't school funded. That's a good third of the class scrambling.


I wish there was data on the pre-law school and 1L goals of those who were left scrambling. For instance, are those the ones who struck out at OCI and couldn't get back up? Do the ones who go in planning on being PD/DA do better at finding those jobs than someone who is just looking for a legal job period their 3L year?

03152016
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:49 pm

@run
i said op multiplied by 3
yours had to assume standard cost at repayment figures
that's the only way you're possibly getting to your 150k number given uf in-state

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LeDique
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby LeDique » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:49 pm

runinthefront wrote:
LeDique wrote:I'll just add that it's not that hard to get a PD/DA position from CU. But who knows where you'll end up


Idk man. Only 118/176 (67%) people out of the class of 2013 ended up with FT/LT legal jobs that weren't school funded. That's a good third of the class scrambling.


Uhhh okay? I'm not sure how that's responsive to that fact I was talking about a specific set of jobs. That number is also bad in this specific context because PD/DAs are precisely some of the jobs that are funded and generally result in long-term employment. I don't mean to imply its easy to get those jobs from CU, but most of the PD/DA gunners I've known from the past two classes is either employed, largely in a PD/DA position. If that's your goal and you can attend CU for cheap and will accept working anywhere in CO, then it's really a fine choice.

KillingIt10
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby KillingIt10 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:58 pm

Thanks @run. I appreciate constructive advice for sure.

Regarding debt/finances. I am very much aware of how much school will cost and am very capable of calculating my own financial situation. No help is needed for that.

Advice on the actual schools and differences between the two are what I'm looking for.

03152016
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:03 pm

your op signals that you're not very capable of "calculating your own financial situation"
and the fact you're willing to plunge into sticker debt at these schools is an even stronger indication

i generally agree with run's number for uf, i'd ballpark it around there
tho actually i think it'll be a touch lower (135k-140k range?)

i think my cu number of 190-200k at repayment for cu is pretty spot on

i'm assuming your plan is to pslf it away, right
you mentioned pd in your op, is that the goal

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:07 pm

LeDique wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
LeDique wrote:I'll just add that it's not that hard to get a PD/DA position from CU. But who knows where you'll end up


Idk man. Only 118/176 (67%) people out of the class of 2013 ended up with FT/LT legal jobs that weren't school funded. That's a good third of the class scrambling.


Uhhh okay? I'm not sure how that's responsive to that fact I was talking about a specific set of jobs. That number is also bad in this specific context because PD/DAs are precisely some of the jobs that are funded and generally result in long-term employment. I don't mean to imply its easy to get those jobs from CU, but most of the PD/DA gunners I've known from the past two classes is either employed, largely in a PD/DA position. If that's your goal and you can attend CU for cheap and will accept working anywhere in CO, then it's really a fine choice.


1/3 of the class would rather be unemployed full-time instead of taking a PD/DA job? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

You don't mean to imply its easy to get those jobs, yet your original post states "I'll just add that it's not that hard to get a PD/DA position from CU."

What?

LeDique, the only point I'm trying to make is that 33% of the graduates from UC are not in a full-time legal job that will keep them employed for at least a year. That's a fact.

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:10 pm

OP is first and foremost interested in becoming an attorney. OP, I wouldn't wager $190k on a 2/3rds shot of becoming an attorney, even if I had $190k in the bank.

As for which schools are best for goals? I'd say UF since we are going off of arbitrary factors like bar scene and restaurants

do you like greek fraternity/sorority culture?

OP, all of the answers to questions 1, 2, and 3 can be found by searching for each school's ABA employment report and 509 report. So we're really just talking about Question 4 here

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:21 pm

run, Dique's point about CU is that people who end up in PD/DA jobs may not show up in the LST numbers because some of those people start in school-funded gigs that turn into long-term jobs. I do think CU is a school where LST doesn't capture the ultimate outcomes of the class because people get jobs after the 9-months-mark that the ABA uses to measure results. I mean, yes, certainly it's a better outcome to be employed before the 9-months-mark than after, so the LST numbers are what they are. But the numbers aren't inconsistent with people gunning for PD/DA out of CU ultimately getting those jobs.

(Plus, it's not that 1/3 would rather be unemployed than be a PD/DA. It's more that people who haven't made PD/DA their goal from the start of law school aren't going to have a great shot at getting those jobs, so if you're someone who wanted something else and struck out, you're probably not going to be very competitive for PD/DA jobs either. Saying you can get a PD/DA job out of CU isn't the same as saying you can't strike out out of CU.)

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:27 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:run, Dique's point about CU is that people who end up in PD/DA jobs may not show up in the LST numbers because some of those people start in school-funded gigs that turn into long-term jobs. I do think CU is a school where LST doesn't capture the ultimate outcomes of the class because people get jobs after the 9-months-mark that the ABA uses to measure results. I mean, yes, certainly it's a better outcome to be employed before the 9-months-mark than after, so the LST numbers are what they are. But the numbers aren't inconsistent with people gunning for PD/DA out of CU ultimately getting those jobs.

(Plus, it's not that 1/3 would rather be unemployed than be a PD/DA. It's more that people who haven't made PD/DA their goal from the start of law school aren't going to have a great shot at getting those jobs, so if you're someone who wanted something else and struck out, you're probably not going to be very competitive for PD/DA jobs either. Saying you can get a PD/DA job out of CU isn't the same as saying you can't strike out out of CU.)


Nony, I only subtracted 5 people from my original numbers. 123/176 is still 30% of graduates with no ft/lt work--even school funded.
I generally agree with your posts, but I think you're wrong here.

Are you implying that UC grads (and grads of similar schools) have a better chance of getting a job after 9 months than say, idk, a random grad from a random school in NYC?

Or are you implying that we shouldn't factor in the underemployed score at all because some people find jobs after nine months?

-
Regardless, if OP wants PD/DA and doesn't need advice about the debt OP may be incurring, then I'd say OP has an equal or better chance at getting that gig from FL and the bars @ UF are better (I think), so OP should go there.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:35 pm

runinthefront wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:run, Dique's point about CU is that people who end up in PD/DA jobs may not show up in the LST numbers because some of those people start in school-funded gigs that turn into long-term jobs. I do think CU is a school where LST doesn't capture the ultimate outcomes of the class because people get jobs after the 9-months-mark that the ABA uses to measure results. I mean, yes, certainly it's a better outcome to be employed before the 9-months-mark than after, so the LST numbers are what they are. But the numbers aren't inconsistent with people gunning for PD/DA out of CU ultimately getting those jobs.

(Plus, it's not that 1/3 would rather be unemployed than be a PD/DA. It's more that people who haven't made PD/DA their goal from the start of law school aren't going to have a great shot at getting those jobs, so if you're someone who wanted something else and struck out, you're probably not going to be very competitive for PD/DA jobs either. Saying you can get a PD/DA job out of CU isn't the same as saying you can't strike out out of CU.)


Nony, I only subtracted 5 people from my original numbers. 123/176 is still 30% of graduates with no ft/lt work--even school funded. I generally agree with your posts, but I think you're wrong here. Are you implying that UC grads have a better chance of getting a job after 9 months than say, idk, a random grad from a random school in NYC? Or are you implying that we shouldn't factor in the underemployed score at all because some people find jobs after nine months?

I'm not saying either of those things. I'm just agreeing with Dique that you can get a PD/DA job out of CU, and suggesting some reasons why LST doesn't capture that precisely. I suspect that people at other regional schools may similarly be able to get those jobs after the 9 months mark, if they go in gunning for them, so I'm not even saying more people will get them out of CU than out of UF. And I'm not saying don't factor in the underemployed score at all, because obviously it provides a way to compare schools, and like I said, getting a job sooner is better than getting a job later.

(I do tend to think that more people end up employed in legal jobs than LST strictly captures, it just takes longer from lesser-ranked schools, and those jobs are not likely to be biglaw or federal clerkships. Obviously that doesn't make the score irrelevant, since better jobs sooner is clearly better. I just think the score isn't the complete picture.)

Edit: when I say you "can" get a PD/DA job, of course anyone "can" get any job from any school. I just agree that the people who gunned PD/DA generally ended up there in the end.

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runinthefront
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby runinthefront » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Okay, your explanation makes some sense.

My reply to the post about PD/DA jobs was to state that, although it may not be "hard" to get a job at the DA/PD's office from UC (90% of those employed could be DAs, idk), I wouldn't call it relatively easy considering that (and this is debatable) 1/3 of the class isn't getting a full-time/long term JD job whatsoever before 9 months have passed from graduation.

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TheProdigal
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby TheProdigal » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:15 am

eriedoctrine wrote:Retake.
Gun to my head, UF FSU.

FTFY.

BigZuck
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:30 am

Both are state flagships and place like state flagships tend to do. Pretty much everything about them is a wash or are small points of difference that don't really matter.

This matters: Which state do you want to live and work in long term? Go to the school in that state. If it's truly 50/50 I would lean to where you have the strongest ties. Failing that, I would flip a coin.

Don't go unless it's cheap because you have a solid chance of ending up without a job as an attorney and even if you do get a job, you likely won't be paid a lot of money so debt should be a big concern.

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Ramius
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby Ramius » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:33 am

TheProdigal wrote:
eriedoctrine wrote:Retake.
Gun to my head, UF FSU.

FTFY.


Thanks. That helps.

03152016
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Re: UF Law v. CU Law

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:34 am

BigZuck wrote:Don't go unless it's cheap

op edited this info out but he's paying sticker at both, with estimated coas of 140k for uf and 200k for cu




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