Older evening student... What should I do?

[dionysius1]

Thanks for all of the advice. As for not being able to save on 70k, that is poverty level here on Long Island. Property taxes on my home, which is a very simple small ranch, are $17,200. The cost of living here is outrageous. I have spoken to a number of mat attorneys and their hourly rate on LI is $400/hr and $500 for court time. Most say they have more work than they can handle. Perhaps its basic economics of Long Island, but I cannot see how, with some hard work, you cannot make $125 within a few years.

As for the $40k debt, with 2 years at a higher salary, the money is a wash. Perhaps I am deluded, but it seemed like a rational decision. Your comments have all given me something to think about and I appreciate it.

(BTW, retirement savings were lost in a divorce 10 years back that cost me nearly $85k in attorney fees and a horrible settlement) I previously made significantly more money, but the economy KILLED me. Thanks Obama

[timbs4339]

I have spoken to a number of mat attorneys and their hourly rate on LI is $400/hr and $500 for court time. Most say they have more work than they can handle. Perhaps its basic economics of Long Island, but I cannot see how, with some hard work, you cannot make $125 within a few years.

Are any of them solos who started their own practices right out of law school? If you can get on with them and learn the ropes, you may be able to go solo in a few years, but it's not going to happen out of law school.

FYI, experienced attorneys usually will not refer inexperienced solos decent clients or cases. It's a reputational thing. Also know that hourly rates are often discounted or essentially a retainer/flat fee system.

[Ron Don Volante]

Thanks for all of the advice. As for not being able to save on 70k, that is poverty level here on Long Island. Property taxes on my home, which is a very simple small ranch, are $17,200. The cost of living here is outrageous. I have spoken to a number of mat attorneys and their hourly rate on LI is $400/hr and $500 for court time. Most say they have more work than they can handle. Perhaps its basic economics of Long Island, but I cannot see how, with some hard work, you cannot make $125 within a few years.

As for the $40k debt, with 2 years at a higher salary, the money is a wash. Perhaps I am deluded, but it seemed like a rational decision. Your comments have all given me something to think about and I appreciate it.

(BTW, retirement savings were lost in a divorce 10 years back that cost me nearly $85k in attorney fees and a horrible settlement) I previously made significantly more money, but the economy KILLED me. Thanks Obama

Again: 50% of all graduates from the school you are considering attending are never hired as attorneys. If the local market was busting at the seams with extra work, don't you think this annual horde of unemployed schmos with > 100K in debt would suck it up?

[dionysius1]

Not sure where you are getting the 50% number from, as it does not correlate to anything I am reading.

Does your opinion change any if I were to attend for 1 year and only stay if I am ranked in the top 10% of my class? Does that correlate to any probability of success?

[timbs4339]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/touro/2013/

As for getting top grades, if you could somehow manage to predict that it will probably increase your chances of getting a small firm job in matrimonial law. But the increase isn't going to be worth it when you've got your age going against you. And it's not going to really help you start a new firm- clients aren't going to care that you were top 11.53% in law school- they are going to want to know how many cases you've done and how successful you have been. What would be much more important is getting close to FT work experience in matrimonial law while in law school but it would be just dumb to quit a decent paying 70K job to work for $12/hr as a law clerk.

You said you know some lawyers. If you trust them (about as much as you can trust any lawyer), ask them honestly whether they'd consider hiring someone like you on in four years as an associate.

[Ron Don Volante]

Not sure where you are getting the 50% number from, as it does not correlate to anything I am reading.

I am getting it from the website I posted at the beginning of this thread. They get it from numbers provided by the school. The school will put out misleading numbers to make it seem like not a terrible investment. For example, they will count people who got short-term part-time jobs that do not require law degrees (ie flipping burgers) as "employed" graduates. 50% is the number of graduates employed in actual attorney jobs.

Does your opinion change any if I were to attend for 1 year and only stay if I am ranked in the top 10% of my class? Does that correlate to any probability of success?

No, it does not change my opinion much, nor does academic success correlate to employment success at a place like Touro. Literally nobody gets jobs that are traditionally related to getting good grades (ie clerkships and big/mid-size firm work). You get a job based on luck and networking. There is obviously not much luck to go around at a place like Touro, though, and it's not like you have a fantastic alumni base to network with. And it will be weird for you to cultivate networking relationships, as you're going to be like twice the age of the associates you'd want to be sucking up to.

This is not a good idea.

[Johann]

Here is a far more realistic career path for a successful family law lawyer five years out of law school (Note: the large majority of Touro graduates who pursue this path won't be successful):

Hello everyone, it's time for my year 5 update. I have provided updates every year since I started my practice in 2009. Here is a link to last year's update:

http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... adId=63708

To recap, I am in a 2 attorney firm (i.e. I have a business partner). We are in a mid-sized city in the Pacific Northwest. We do about 90% family law, with a few personal injury cases, and a few other civil litigation cases.

My earnings (what I paid myself after paying the firm's overhead) have been as follows:

Year 1: 19,000 for about 60 hrs of work/week
Year 2: 30,000 for about 55 hrs of work/week
Year 3: 40,000 for about 50 hrs of work/week
Year 4: 53,000 for about 45 hrs of work/week

I just got some documents back from our accountant for year 5 (2014). It was our best year so far. I earned $75,000 last year.

I worked about 40 - 45 hours per week average. I also took about 4 weeks of vacation last year.

The belief that the OP has a realistic shot at making $300K (!) two or three years after law school by soloing on Long Island is the kind of thing that keeps a school like Touro in business.

This may be a realistic possible outcome for OP, but this is not a realistic SUCCESSFUL outcome. This attorney should have packed it in in year 1 or 2. This is basically your worst case scenario. Note also recession in 2009 and 2010. So this is your worst case scenario OP. There is a very real chance this could happen, and you should plan accordingly.
But on the flip side, the successful option is very much $300k in year 3 or 4. I know partners at a 2 person divorce shop in their 3rd year now bringing in at least this much each. And they charge half of the rates OP talks about on LI. They charge $200-250.
Just because you guys wouldn't take the risk, doesn't mean you should give OP bad facts. I wouldn't take the risk either of leaving a 70k job at that point in life. But OP is more risk tolerant than us. So our advice should be tempered accordingly. There is a real chance of failure like in the above scenario (I don't know the odds but I'd say roughly half - out of the very small sample size of solos I knew who opened up shop after law school 3/5 are still going in Year 3). But if OP does succeed, every legitimate law practice is bringing in comfortable money (at least the $125k OP wants).

[Johann]

If you can't save from making 70k a year then you are doing something bizarre.

Prolly says something about his business skills too

He lives on LI and we don't know his family situation. 70K is solidly middle-class there.

Your 300K estimate is wildly off. There is absolutely no way the median salary for solos 3 years out is 300K- the median salary for all lawyers is 112K and 51% of lawyers are solos. I just don't even know where you come up with these numbers. Stop lying to OP.

I never said the median salary for solos 3 years out is 300k. I told you where I came up with my numbers earlier in the thread. Multiple $200-$250 by 1500 hours of work in a year (low estimate that includes discounted hours etc). Thats where I got 300k. I also know this to be the case from solos I and other close friends have worked for. I havent seen a successful solo that was in at least their 3rd year of practice not making $200k a year. Most of the solos Ive worked or close friends have worked for bundle around the $300k figure.

Now to get back to your shitty math. Median salaries at $112k is easiyl explained (vast majority (95%) of govt attorneys make less than that median, all new private sector attorneys not in big law make less than median (100%), you also have unsuccessful solos that are in the midst of failing making less than 112k. It's not a mean, it's a median. The ones who are successful are very successful, and the ones who fail, fail. Plus plenty of solos in rural America will make less than what OP does if successful because hes in a higher COL place. The first 2 years will be a grind and it could lead to failure, but if OP survives, I see no reason why he wouldnt far exceed hsi goal of $125k.

[Johann]

Thanks for all of the advice. As for not being able to save on 70k, that is poverty level here on Long Island. Property taxes on my home, which is a very simple small ranch, are $17,200. The cost of living here is outrageous. I have spoken to a number of mat attorneys and their hourly rate on LI is $400/hr and $500 for court time. Most say they have more work than they can handle. Perhaps its basic economics of Long Island, but I cannot see how, with some hard work, you cannot make $125 within a few years.

As for the $40k debt, with 2 years at a higher salary, the money is a wash. Perhaps I am deluded, but it seemed like a rational decision. Your comments have all given me something to think about and I appreciate it.

(BTW, retirement savings were lost in a divorce 10 years back that cost me nearly $85k in attorney fees and a horrible settlement) I previously made significantly more money, but the economy KILLED me. Thanks Obama

Again: 50% of all graduates from the school you are considering attending are never hired as attorneys. If the local market was busting at the seams with extra work, don't you think this annual horde of unemployed schmos with > 100K in debt would suck it up?

Yeah but OP is going to open his own shop, so this stat is meaningless. he isn't hoping to be hired as an attorney.

[Nomo]

The idea that a new solo family law attorney is going to be able to collect on 1500 hours is absurd. The only way you're collecting on 1500 hours is if you're doing a lot contract work for other firms or the government (ex: contract public defender work). But private law firms aren't going to farm out motions to a new solo, and even a moderately experienced solo isn't going to get much more than $100/hr. from them. Same goes with contract public defender work.

Finding clients with the ability to pay is hard. Getting them to pay is even harder. New solos spend tons of time on things they can't bill for. They also spend tons of time on stuff they can technically bill for, but won't (learning the basics on points of law and procedure you haven't done before). And the bills they do send out are often only partially paid. You can try to ensure payment by requiring a retainer up front, but most people can't put up 5k at the beginning, and those who can are probably going to more experienced attorneys. If you take a small retainer, say 1k, you will probably blow through it and then the client might stop paying you. And don't expect a judge to let you off a case you're litigating just because your client stopped paying.

That said, if you can get a reputation as a great lawyer among people who are able and willing to spend big money on a divorce, then you're golden. That's probably what's happened to the lawyers you've talked to. But getting there is very hard.

[Ron Don Volante]

Thanks for all of the advice. As for not being able to save on 70k, that is poverty level here on Long Island. Property taxes on my home, which is a very simple small ranch, are $17,200. The cost of living here is outrageous. I have spoken to a number of mat attorneys and their hourly rate on LI is $400/hr and $500 for court time. Most say they have more work than they can handle. Perhaps its basic economics of Long Island, but I cannot see how, with some hard work, you cannot make $125 within a few years.

As for the $40k debt, with 2 years at a higher salary, the money is a wash. Perhaps I am deluded, but it seemed like a rational decision. Your comments have all given me something to think about and I appreciate it.

(BTW, retirement savings were lost in a divorce 10 years back that cost me nearly $85k in attorney fees and a horrible settlement) I previously made significantly more money, but the economy KILLED me. Thanks Obama

Again: 50% of all graduates from the school you are considering attending are never hired as attorneys. If the local market was busting at the seams with extra work, don't you think this annual horde of unemployed schmos with > 100K in debt would suck it up?

Yeah but OP is going to open his own shop, so this stat is meaningless. he isn't hoping to be hired as an attorney.

wooosh (as usual)

[Johann]

well your statement goes more to how risk averse people are. law students (as evidenced by most of the people in this thread) are very risk averse. its a risky proposition, so its understandable that the grads would take a for sure salary in a non legal job rather than risk the unknown of opening up ones own shop. that doesnt speak to the market at all.

chicago puts out lots of unemployed law grads every year (that find other jobs outside of law), but im aware of opportunities where there arent enough lawyers are ripe for opportunity. so yes, your 50% unemplyed stat is meaningless.

(faulty reasoning from ron don as usual - law students not finding work as an entry level attorney says nothing about market opportunities to open a business).

[Johann]

The idea that a new solo family law attorney is going to be able to collect on 1500 hours is absurd.

I said a 3rd year. This isnt really that absurd. In a solo shop you bill by the quarter hour as the smallest increment - leads to high billables right off the bat. You also double bill for court time. If you walk to court to handle 4 cases that day - you bill each client that time. You only obvi dont bill for time spent representing another case, but usually whatever you did for that case is billable. You make forms that are nearly complete that take 20 mins of tinkering to bill for a standard 2 hours. Certain motions you always bill 1 hour for even if they take 10 mins. Its not the same as biglaw. This is the standard in small firms. It's pretty easy to rack up an 8-10 hour billable day in your morning court calls and work after lunch. By 3 pm you have billed 8-10 hour. I don't know what you collect on this and I'm sure it varies by firm, but even 75% collection is still getting you at 300k with the right rates and right billables. So my statement that a 3rd year solo can collect on 1500 hours is really standard - I know several doing.

The only way you're collecting on 1500 hours is if you're doing a lot contract work for other firms or the government (ex: contract public defender work). But private law firms aren't going to farm out motions to a new solo, and even a moderately experienced solo isn't going to get much more than $100/hr. from them. Same goes with contract public defender work.

Finding clients with the ability to pay is hard. Getting them to pay is even harder.

Yes, this is part of the rough ride early on. But you learn how to collect and you learn who can pay. The scarcer your time the more you demand in a retainer up front. If you're opening up you might take a case where someone refuses to pay a retainer. In year 3, its a 50% retainer up front or get the fuck out.

New solos spend tons of time on things they can't bill for.

Yes, biz dev. True. ANd drafting documents and making forms. All of this will come back later in rewards. Like I said that motion you draft once that you craft for 5 hours to make perfect and then can tweak in 10 mins for 1 billable in the future is just an up front investment.

They also spend tons of time on stuff they can technically bill for, but won't (learning the basics on points of law and procedure you haven't done before). And the bills they do send out are often only partially paid.

These have been addressed above.

You can try to ensure payment by requiring a retainer up front, but most people can't put up 5k at the beginning, and those who can are probably going to more experienced attorneys. If you take a small retainer, say 1k, you will probably blow through it and then the client might stop paying you.
And don't expect a judge to let you off a case you're litigating just because your client stopped paying.

The busier you get, the more demands you can make on retainers. Ive seen it first hand from solos growing their practice. They wont accept a client anymore that doesnt put down 50% of estimated bill or minimum 5k retainer if something huge. So this is just false. Early on you have lots of risk, but in Year 3, you don't and if you do, you aren't a smart business person.

That said, if you can get a reputation as a great lawyer among people who are able and willing to spend big money on a divorce, then you're golden. That's probably what's happened to the lawyers you've talked to. But getting there is very hard.


your post also omits the points that once youve got things you can have paralegals making $20 or $25 an hour fill in your motions for you and you turn around and bill that at the $100 paralegal rate. There is plenty of options to rack up billables without actually working.

[timbs4339]

Dude

If you can't save from making 70k a year then you are doing something bizarre.

Prolly says something about his business skills too

He lives on LI and we don't know his family situation. 70K is solidly middle-class there.

Your 300K estimate is wildly off. There is absolutely no way the median salary for solos 3 years out is 300K- the median salary for all lawyers is 112K and 51% of lawyers are solos. I just don't even know where you come up with these numbers. Stop lying to OP.

I never said the median salary for solos 3 years out is 300k. I told you where I came up with my numbers earlier in the thread. Multiple $200-$250 by 1500 hours of work in a year (low estimate that includes discounted hours etc). Thats where I got 300k. I also know this to be the case from solos I and other close friends have worked for. I havent seen a successful solo that was in at least their 3rd year of practice not making $200k a year. Most of the solos Ive worked or close friends have worked for bundle around the $300k figure.

Now to get back to your shitty math. Median salaries at $112k is easiyl explained (vast majority (95%) of govt attorneys make less than that median, all new private sector attorneys not in big law make less than median (100%), you also have unsuccessful solos that are in the midst of failing making less than 112k. It's not a mean, it's a median. The ones who are successful are very successful, and the ones who fail, fail. Plus plenty of solos in rural America will make less than what OP does if successful because hes in a higher COL place. The first 2 years will be a grind and it could lead to failure, but if OP survives, I see no reason why he wouldnt far exceed hsi goal of $125k.

No, it's not quite that "easily explained." Let's go through your shitty logic, then we'll talk about your shitty math.

You said that solos either burn out or make it. You then said that you know a bunch of solos and small shops that "cluster around 300K per partner." Thus, implying that if you make it, you make 300K. Then you go on about how easy it is to make it billing hours that come in from the hour fairy at rates nobody can pay except for people who can afford to pay an experienced lawyer. Thus, if there are a lot of solos and small firms, then a lot of those firms have, by your estimation "made it" into that 300K camp.

Well, the BLS reports that the median salary for all lawyers is 114K, the 75th% is 170K, and the 90th is some amount greater than 190K. Let's be generous and say that you really meant 170K, which is a pretty good salary for OP to hope for after 10 years in practice, not three. 48% of all attorneys work in firms of 1-5 lawyers. Of those, how many do you think are more than three years out? You are really telling me that if you add up most of the biglawyers (about 11% of all lawyers, minus discovery attnys), law professors, federal government GS-15 attorneys, judges, in-house counsel, and midlawyers, there's room in your 170K+ bracket to fit even a quarter of the 48% solo and small firm attorneys? I want whatever you are smoking.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes231011.htm

[Johann]

i dont have time to wade through the stats but just glancing at them, you aren't citing mean statistics. The median hides what the people at the top make. Also, you are citing all law professionals including ones in govt and out and ones in Iowa. Lets cut through the crap and go straight to NY private sector lawyers. Annual mean wage -$150k+. So, yes I think that leaves plenty of room for the partner of the firm to make 300k and his associate to make $50k - avg mean 175k. Throw in the fact there are way more people in the low income boat (based on the median being lower than the mean) and its easy to see we have some very high earners on our hands.

[baal hadad]

Quitting a $70k yr job to go to a shithole like touro is a bad idea

[03152016]

i dont have time to wade through the stats but just glancing at them, you aren't citing mean statistics. The median hides what the people at the top make. Also, you are citing all law professionals including ones in govt and out and ones in Iowa. Lets cut through the crap and go straight to NY private sector lawyers. Annual mean wage -$150k+. So, yes I think that leaves plenty of room for the partner of the firm to make 300k and his associate to make $50k - avg mean 175k. Throw in the fact there are way more people in the low income boat (based on the median being lower than the mean) and its easy to see we have some very high earners on our hands.

yes this completely makes sense
divorce lawyers hanging a shingle on long island in their third year of practice earn two times more than the mean private sector salary state-wide
your credibility reaches new heights

[timbs4339]

i dont have time to wade through the stats but just glancing at them, you aren't citing mean statistics. The median hides what the people at the top make. Also, you are citing all law professionals including ones in govt and out and ones in Iowa. Lets cut through the crap and go straight to NY private sector lawyers. Annual mean wage -$150k+. So, yes I think that leaves plenty of room for the partner of the firm to make 300k and his associate to make $50k - avg mean 175k. Throw in the fact there are way more people in the low income boat (based on the median being lower than the mean) and its easy to see we have some very high earners on our hands.

Again, a bunch of biglaw partners and very successful boomer lawyers with 15 years experience made a lot of money in the law game. Not really in dispute. Still not seeing how that proves your theory that if OP survives 3 years in solo/small firm practice he'll make 300K (in fact you even exempted PI lawyers from this, implying that they make a lot more). I showed you how that is simply impossible given the numbers of solos/small firms out there and the number of lawyers we know are making 170K or more. That's not whether I used mean or median- 10% of lawyers make more than $187K per year. About 48% of total lawyers are small firm or solos. I'm not sure how you reconcile those numbers.

Also, there is no reason to exclude gov't lawyers. State judges in NY make 160K, feds 200K. Law professors make over 200K. Fed gov pays pretty well too.

[Johann]

Because most solos have a an associate or two they pay dogshit. How is this not making sense to you. One partner firm $300k with an associate at $50k is a mean of $175k. This is basically the set up of all small law offices. One to two associates at a one partner place and two to three associates at a 2 partner place. One partner with $300k and two $50k associates is a mean of $133k, under the average. Let me guess you are a 1L? I can probably count close to 100 small firms if I go through my linkedin with a partner and an associate or two. One high salary one low salary in them all. Average that out and you get exactly the type of pay structure youre looking at here - higher means than median because of tail outliers in the 300k range, median somewhere in the middle with what other lawyers make mean somewhere around 130-145k

[timbs4339]

Because most solos have a an associate or two they pay dogshit. How is this not making sense to you. One partner firm $300k with an associate at $50k is a mean of $175k. This is basically the set up of all small law offices. One to two associates at a one partner place and two to three associates at a 2 partner place. One partner with $300k and two $50k associates is a mean of $133k, under the average. Let me guess you are a 1L? I can probably count close to 100 small firms if I go through my linkedin with a partner and an associate or two. One high salary one low salary in them all. Average that out and you get exactly the type of pay structure youre looking at here - higher means than median because of tail outliers in the 300k range, median somewhere in the middle with what other lawyers make mean somewhere around 130-145k

The ABA numbers are all lawyers. Not all firm owners, not partners. All lawyers. So 50% of private practice lawyers are solos- as in they work alone. 15% are in 2-5 lawyer firms. Again, your numbers don't add up, and now you're starting to ramble. If you have better numbers I'd love to see them.

[Johann]

Yeah but look below that in law firms. 76% of law firms are 2-5 people. So yes, solos then are the law failures. ANd law firms are the success stories. Because if you succeed you would have enough work to get antoher person. If you don't you would stay solo. So this still is in line with what I was saying at the beginning - if you don't succeed you will make dogshit. If you do succeed - 300k.

It seems like the only thing were debating at this point is whether he will make 300K or 125K if he succeeds. His goal is 125k anyways, so either way, its just a pissing match at this point.

[Ron Don Volante]

well your statement goes more to how risk averse people are. law students (as evidenced by most of the people in this thread) are very risk averse. its a risky proposition, so its understandable that the grads would take a for sure salary in a non legal job rather than risk the unknown of opening up ones own shop. that doesnt speak to the market at all.

chicago puts out lots of unemployed law grads every year (that find other jobs outside of law), but im aware of opportunities where there arent enough lawyers are ripe for opportunity. so yes, your 50% unemplyed stat is meaningless.

(faulty reasoning from ron don as usual - law students not finding work as an entry level attorney says nothing about market opportunities to open a business).

You are such a moron.

[timbs4339]

Yeah but look below that in law firms. 76% of law firms are 2-5 people. So yes, solos then are the law failures. ANd law firms are the success stories. Because if you succeed you would have enough work to get antoher person. If you don't you would stay solo. So this still is in line with what I was saying at the beginning - if you don't succeed you will make dogshit. If you do succeed - 300k.

It seems like the only thing were debating at this point is whether he will make 300K or 125K if he succeeds. His goal is 125k anyways, so either way, its just a pissing match at this point.

I'm not even sure where you are getting "76% of law firms are 2-5 people." Of all law firms (if you exclude solos) 2-5 lawyer firms are less than 33%. In fact, there are more lawyers in biglaw than in 2-5 person firms.

"Success" for OP would be making 50K profit in three years. Professor Campos's numbers look optimistic to me.

Either way, it would just be a terrible decision to give up a steady 70K job to go into law hoping to make it as a solo. OP might as well just open up a restaurant or something, at least he'll be able to discharge that debt and he'll have a lot more fun.

[xiao_long]

Yeah but look below that in law firms. 76% of law firms are 2-5 people. So yes, solos then are the law failures. ANd law firms are the success stories. Because if you succeed you would have enough work to get antoher person. If you don't you would stay solo. So this still is in line with what I was saying at the beginning - if you don't succeed you will make dogshit. If you do succeed - 300k.

It seems like the only thing were debating at this point is whether he will make 300K or 125K if he succeeds. His goal is 125k anyways, so either way, its just a pissing match at this point.

I'm not even sure where you are getting "76% of law firms are 2-5 people." Of all law firms (if you exclude solos) 2-5 lawyer firms are less than 33%. In fact, there are more lawyers in biglaw than in 2-5 person firms.

"Success" for OP would be making 50K profit in three years. Professor Campos's numbers look optimistic to me.

Either way, it would just be a terrible decision to give up a steady 70K job to go into law hoping to make it as a solo. OP might as well just open up a restaurant or something, at least he'll be able to discharge that debt and he'll have a lot more fun.

This is 100x better than going to law school from a cost-benefit perspective. Sure, most restaurants eventually fail by the 3rd year, but you can get into the game with minimal costs (around 80k) and start generating cash flow on your first day!

If the business doesn't work out, you can always liquidate your assets or try to find a buyer to take over your business. If the worst comes to the worst, you at least have the option to file for bankruptcy.

Shake Shack just debuted today at $47.21 on the NYSE. Maybe you can be the next Danny Meyer?

[forza]

No one should go to Touro.