NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

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Eladriel
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby Eladriel » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:17 pm

Thanks to OP and to the replies. As someone choosing between both this is very helpful.

I guess I'll just have to visit/walk around to get the "feel."

Can anyone add more to the B- discussion? Maybe explain to us clueless 0Ls why it matters?

toothbrush
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby toothbrush » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:33 pm

Eladriel wrote:Thanks to OP and to the replies. As someone choosing between both this is very helpful.

I guess I'll just have to visit/walk around to get the "feel."

Can anyone add more to the B- discussion? Maybe explain to us clueless 0Ls why it matters?

Simply, all law students are graded on a forced curve. At CLS (and NYU?) with B being the floor, the professor must give a certain % of B's (~40%**) to her class. It's fairly obvious why it's good that the floor is a B vs. a B-.

Basically, it prevents you from fucking up your GPA too bad just bc of the "curve". Also, it happens to bring everyone's GPAs closer together. There is a greater critical mass around a higher GPA comparatively when the curve is set at a B. This helps with employment, so the argument goes, because employers see a great chunk of people all around the same GPA (3.25-3.35 probably) and thus everyone has a "fair shot" at getting the job without the arbitrariness of grades hurting you.

just my 2c.

edit - my 40% figure is for CLS and based on jbagels post below; for nyu see:
Brut wrote:floor at nyu is 4-11%, nowhere near 40%
my classes last semester as a frame of reference:
ks 5%
civ 3%
crim 7%
Last edited by toothbrush on Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:54 pm

toothbrush wrote:
Eladriel wrote:Thanks to OP and to the replies. As someone choosing between both this is very helpful.

I guess I'll just have to visit/walk around to get the "feel."

Can anyone add more to the B- discussion? Maybe explain to us clueless 0Ls why it matters?

Simply, all law students are graded on a forced curve. At CLS (and NYU?) with B being the floor, the professor must give a certain % of B's (~10%) to her class. It's fairly obvious why it's good that the floor is a B vs. a B-.

Basically, it prevents you from fucking up your GPA too bad just bc of the "curve". Also, it happens to bring everyone's GPAs closer together. There is a greater critical mass around a higher GPA comparatively when the curve is set at a B. This helps with employment, so the argument goes, because employers see a great chunk of people all around the same GPA (3.25-3.35 probably) and thus everyone has a "fair shot" at getting the job without the arbitrariness of grades hurting you.

just my 2c.


The "floor" of Bs for 1Ls is more like 40% of the class (and 30% for 2L/3L) than 10% though.

toothbrush
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby toothbrush » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:20 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
The "floor" of Bs for 1Ls is more like 40% of the class (and 30% for 2L/3L) than 10% though.

good call, edited original post. thanks.

03152016
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby 03152016 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:20 pm

toothbrush wrote:
Eladriel wrote:Thanks to OP and to the replies. As someone choosing between both this is very helpful.

I guess I'll just have to visit/walk around to get the "feel."

Can anyone add more to the B- discussion? Maybe explain to us clueless 0Ls why it matters?

Simply, all law students are graded on a forced curve. At CLS (and NYU?) with B being the floor, the professor must give a certain % of B's (~40%) to her class. It's fairly obvious why it's good that the floor is a B vs. a B-.

Basically, it prevents you from fucking up your GPA too bad just bc of the "curve". Also, it happens to bring everyone's GPAs closer together. There is a greater critical mass around a higher GPA comparatively when the curve is set at a B. This helps with employment, so the argument goes, because employers see a great chunk of people all around the same GPA (3.25-3.35 probably) and thus everyone has a "fair shot" at getting the job without the arbitrariness of grades hurting you.

just my 2c.

floor at nyu is 4-11%, nowhere near 40%
my classes last semester as a frame of reference:
ks 5%
civ 3%
crim 7%

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moonman157
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby moonman157 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:26 pm

Yeah, it does take away from a lot of the stress during finals because you have to really mess up to get a grade that will wreck your GPA, whereas if B-s or Cs are in the curve, then you just have to be at the bottom of the curve to have your GPA wrecked. And as others mentioned, it helps during the job search because it means that fewer employers will be off the table if you have a GPA that's clustered right around the middle.

As far as CLS vs. NYU (or Chi, on that other thread) I think the employment prospects out of any of them, for basically any job, are going to be so similar that you should go off of cost, and then if that's negligible then some of the intangibles that are specific to you and no one on an anonymous message board can tell you.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:47 pm

Brut wrote:floor at nyu is 4-11%, nowhere near 40%
my classes last semester as a frame of reference:
ks 5%
civ 3%
crim 7%

It would actually be better if it were at 40%. Whatever the bottom grade is, you want it set up to where you can do the worst in the class and still show the same grade on your transcript as the guy who just missed median.

That said, people do get B- and C at Columbia, profs just aren't required to give those grades. And clearly a single B- won't sink anybody at NYU.

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Skool
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby Skool » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:27 pm

If you're PI focused and below median, is it better to be at NYU or Columbia? In terms of employment outcomes, are the consequences more, less, or equally dire when compared to the biglaw bound people?

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2014
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby 2014 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:59 pm

To be fair, coming from a school where the spectrum of grades is more festive, the fact that the low range exists also enables more liberal use of the high range. Many/most people I know end up with one or two low grades (B- equivalent) and more high grades (A/A+ equivalent) and the end result is arguably grade inflation since the average is dragged up harder than it is weighed down.

I'd probably prefer no B-'s on the margins but just wanted to point out that you can just as easily benefit from the extra curve space as be harmed.

thisone2014
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby thisone2014 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:03 pm

2014 wrote:To be fair, coming from a school where the spectrum of grades is more festive, the fact that the low range exists also enables more liberal use of the high range. Many/most people I know end up with one or two low grades (B- equivalent) and more high grades (A/A+ equivalent) and the end result is arguably grade inflation since the average is dragged up harder than it is weighed down.

I'd probably prefer no B-'s on the margins but just wanted to point out that you can just as easily benefit from the extra curve space as be harmed.



I'm not sure I understand this... Can you explain why B- required ---> more A+?

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banjo
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby banjo » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:31 pm

Another marginal consideration: For 1L, I believe NYU requires 3 courses in the fall and 3 in the spring, whereas CLS requires 3 in the fall and 4 in the spring. I'm not sure which way this cuts. Less material to cover can improve your QOL, but some students prefer more grades in the spring when they're better at exams.

edit: didn't know Leg Reg was basically admin lite. That sounds less fun.

thisone2014
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby thisone2014 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:40 pm

banjo wrote:Another marginal consideration: For 1L, I believe NYU requires 3 courses in the fall and 3 in the spring, whereas CLS requires 3 in the fall and 4 in the spring. I'm not sure which way this cuts. Less material to cover can improve your QOL, but some students prefer more grades in the spring when they're better at exams.



I didn't realize that. Out of curiosity, is the # of credits/class hours required for graduation different over the 3 years?

03152016
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby 03152016 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:57 pm

don't know how lrw is done at cls, but nyu has a kind of intense lrw curriculum
we do the usual – research, oral argument, memo
but we also do client consultation, interviewing, negotiations, business and financial literacy, due diligence, document markup, etc
very time intensive but it's interesting and seems potentially useful

toothbrush
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby toothbrush » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:07 pm

thisone2014 wrote:I didn't realize that. Out of curiosity, is the # of credits/class hours required for graduation different over the 3 years?

83 for both:
http://web.law.columbia.edu/registratio ... equirement
http://www.law.nyu.edu/academicservices ... quirements

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:20 am

Brut wrote:don't know how lrw is done at cls, but nyu has a kind of intense lrw curriculum
we do the usual – research, oral argument, memo
but we also do client consultation, interviewing, negotiations, business and financial literacy, due diligence, document markup, etc
very time intensive but it's interesting and seems potentially useful


yours is better.

ours is cool if you do the international moot courts. otherwise it falls flat.

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2014
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby 2014 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:14 am

thisone2014 wrote:
2014 wrote:To be fair, coming from a school where the spectrum of grades is more festive, the fact that the low range exists also enables more liberal use of the high range. Many/most people I know end up with one or two low grades (B- equivalent) and more high grades (A/A+ equivalent) and the end result is arguably grade inflation since the average is dragged up harder than it is weighed down.

I'd probably prefer no B-'s on the margins but just wanted to point out that you can just as easily benefit from the extra curve space as be harmed.



I'm not sure I understand this... Can you explain why B- required ---> more A+?

Assuming a normal or high skewed curve, by expanding the left side to include B- you also have to expand the right to include more or else you are just being a douche to your students.

k5220
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby k5220 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:56 am

Skool wrote:If you're PI focused and below median, is it better to be at NYU or Columbia? In terms of employment outcomes, are the consequences more, less, or equally dire when compared to the biglaw bound people?


NYU has slightly better hookups for PI, and the consequences for being below median are way less dire for public interest folks than they are for biglaw kids. Lots of PI employers don't really care about grades as much as experience, and many don't even ask for transcripts. Our public interest career office is pretty good about helping students with bad grades position themselves and employers also recognize the public interest cred of NYU.

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DiniMae
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby DiniMae » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:37 am

ub3r wrote:Great feedback everyone, thank you.


+1

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DiniMae
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Re: NYU & Columbia: What's the Difference?

Postby DiniMae » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:44 am

lapolicia wrote:
ub3r wrote:I guess since I've got the attention of some courteous NYU/Columbia people, I'll ask a question more specific to me.

Can you speak of anyone you know who's looking to work in California after NYU/Columbia? That would be me. Biglaw, most likely.


Plenty of my NYU classmates ended up in California either directly out of law school or by lateraling after a few years in NYC biglaw. Out of law school, it's definitely harder to get than NYC--you need around top 1/3 and California ties to have a very confident shot. You can get it at median, but if you're median it's too risky to bid heavily on CA so you should aim for NYC unless you're IP or have real tech work experience. If you have strong ties, you'll be able to lateral to California after a few years in biglaw (more so from corporate than from litigation).


Thanks for the info. So if I have no ties to CA, but a tech background and IP classes (and top 1/3), I have a decent shot at CA BigLaw?




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