UChicago vs. Columbia Forum

[03282016]

[Mal Reynolds]

I can make the UChi over Yale argument (admittedly w/ a couple extra conditions) with a completely straight face. I just don't get the chance to very often

Do it pls

I want to read this.

It definitely won't apply to U Chicago EDers.

[2014]

Assuming the following:

1. No (or maybe extremely flexible) clerkship/academia ambitions
2. No political ambitions (side note - H>>>Y here I'd assume)
3. No/insignificant need based aid
(~80% of my class meets these 3 assumptions)

Why would anyone take Yale over UChi Full Ride + 10k stipend?

E - If your argument involves anything about the grading system or not wanting to be a lawyer it's going to be an uphill battle convincing me Yale is worth 200k extra cost.

[03282016]

[Mal Reynolds]

It definitely won't apply to U Chicago EDers.

cool

If you're gonna pay sticker at U Chicago might as well do it at Yale. But maybe you'll get a ton of scholarship money!!!

[03282016]

[Tiago Splitter]

"As long as you get free tuition AND a 10k stipend you should definitely take Chicago over any other school!"

He'll be here all week folks.

[Mal Reynolds]

I think he's assuming if you get into Yale you're Ruby eligible. Not sure that's true in every case.

[2014]

No no that's only vs YHS, don't need a Ruby contingency for others.

To be fair based on admissions charts well over 50% of Yale's class would pull a Ruby. If you think the Ruby is holistic I strongly disagree.

[Tiago Splitter]

I think he's assuming if you get into Yale you're Ruby eligible. Not sure that's true in every case.

Yeah I agree with Ruby over Yale of course. Honestly I'd take Chicago over Columbia but I think I'm supposed to play the foil here.

[Mal Reynolds]

I think he's assuming if you get into Yale you're Ruby eligible. Not sure that's true in every case.

Yeah I agree with Ruby over Yale of course. Honestly I'd take Chicago over Columbia but I think I'm supposed to play the foil here.

ONE OF US ONE OF US

[2014]

WTF happened to LSN last cycle like no one reported scholarship info.

Here I was trying to find a ~173/3.91 (Yale Medians) bro who got into U.Chi without a Ruby to ballpark the cost differential and appease Tiago and that person literally doesn't exist. Internet really let me down here.

[Tiago Splitter]

WTF happened to LSN last cycle like no one reported scholarship info.

Here I was trying to find a ~173/3.91 (Yale Medians) bro who got into U.Chi without a Ruby to ballpark the cost differential and appease Tiago and that person literally doesn't exist. Internet really let me down here.

See? This is what you get from Chicago folks. Lies and half-truths.

[2014]

I have changed my tune. Yale > Chicago both at sticker since LSN tells me this is the choice people face. HYS/CLSN/ChiVPDNu/MCG. OP plz update to reflect new tiers.

[2014]

Just realized the good fight is being fought in this thread. The international law NYU thing is kind of cramping my style but i'm going to pop in when that OP gets a Ruby and save the day just you wait.

[Canof09]

Here is the thing, I did undergrad at Chicago, and so am powerfully disinclined to go back.

OP, I am a 1L at Chicago, and from what I can tell UChicago undergrad is a living hell. Every single undergrad I have ever come in contact with is super nerdy and doing undergrad here seems like one of the least enjoyable things possible. It is a vastly different experience at the law school. The majority of people at the law school are very social and love to have a good time. Don't assume that you will hate being at UChicago for law school just because you didn't love undergrad here.

Also, I don't know when you graduated but Hyde Park is really coming along and improving pretty rapidly. Within the past year we got two really good restaurants (actually good, not just Hyde Park good) that have opened up shop and it seems like there will be more to follow.

It will all become clearer when you go on the admitted student weekend visits in the spring, but I can tell you that I had the most fun on my Chicago visit and it was not close.

[Mal Reynolds]

(Pre spring quarter 1L)

[jbagelboy]

Seriously though, are you trolling?

There are a lot of Chicago voices in this thread that are tacitly validating your OP. If I seem at all partisan it's to balance the scales. I strongly disagree with your premise that Chicago is or has become a superior law school to Columbia, and all your logic flowing from that flawed starting point should be thrown out. A higher percentage of Chicago students pursue clerkships (as a result of geography, statistical noise, academic aspirations, what have you) and a higher percentage of Columbia students enter firms in corporate departments where clerkships have far less value. That's the only numerically distinguishing feature. Faculty at both are terrific and prolific. The margin in overall value between either school and Harvard is slim at best.

If it would make your decision easier, most of the people I know at CLS were also admitted to Chicago and turned it down. I'm sure this is also true vise versa. There are also students at both schools who turned down Harvard. The point is the views you've presented are aberrant, not commonplace. The equally flawed but far more common consensus among practitioners and the occasional academic is that Columbia comes closest to Harvard and Yale. See http://www.businessinsider.com/law-scho ... ng-2014-11 and http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersa ... 2#image=49 (both ranking CLS 3rd behind HY) for public examples or https://s3.amazonaws.com/bcgsearch/images/BCG_Law_School_Guide_2014.pdf for industry. These are shamefully flawed surveys but they reflect the public/prestige image you appear to be concerned with.

My one caveat would be that if you want to work in Chicago or stay in the midwest, UChi is probably an objectively superior option than CLS. For other primary markets such as NY and CA, it's a total wash.

PM me if you want any information about how I made this choice or how I've seen dozens of others make it. I don't think you should decide to ditch Chicago because you were a miserable undergraduate, but I also think you have to revisit your flawed outlook on the two law schools and talk to more people (outside Chicago) about the profession and academy.

[UnicornHunter]

Seriously though, are you trolling?

There are a lot of Chicago voices in this thread that are tacitly validating your OP. If I seem at all partisan it's to balance the scales. I strongly disagree with your premise that Chicago is or has become a superior law school to Columbia, and all your logic flowing from that flawed starting point should be thrown out. A higher percentage of Chicago students pursue clerkships (as a result of geography, statistical noise, academic aspirations, what have you) and a higher percentage of Columbia students enter firms in corporate departments where clerkships have far less value. That's the only numerically distinguishing feature. Faculty at both are terrific and prolific. The margin in overall value between either school and Harvard is slim at best.

If it would make your decision easier, most of the people I know at CLS were also admitted to Chicago and turned it down. I'm sure this is also true vise versa. There are also students at both schools who turned down Harvard. The point is the views you've presented are aberrant, not commonplace. The equally flawed but far more common consensus among practitioners and the occasional academic is that Columbia comes closest to Harvard and Yale. See http://www.businessinsider.com/law-scho ... ng-2014-11 and http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersa ... 2#image=49 (both ranking CLS 3rd behind HY) for public examples or https://s3.amazonaws.com/bcgsearch/imag ... e_2014.pdf for industry. These are shamefully flawed surveys but they reflect the public/prestige image you appear to be concerned with.

My one caveat would be that if you want to work in Chicago or stay in the midwest, UChi is probably an objectively superior option than CLS. For other primary markets such as NY and CA, it's a total wash.

PM me if you want any information about how I made this choice or how I've seen dozens of others make it. I don't think you should decide to ditch Chicago because you were a miserable undergraduate, but I also think you have to revisit your flawed outlook on the two law schools and talk to more people (outside Chicago) about the profession and academy.

I mean really it just seems like any difference between the two is so small that it would come down to cost no matter what your preferences are. Given that Hyde Park is a lot cheaper than Manhattan, that would mean that Chicago probably makes sense for more people than Columbia. Obvious exceptions are people who have SOs who would have an easier time getting work in NY than Chicago. Of course, as I made clear earlier up thread, I think that in most cases, someone measuring Chicago vs. Columbia @ sticker probably has better options in the lower T-14.

[jbagelboy]

Seriously though, are you trolling?

There are a lot of Chicago voices in this thread that are tacitly validating your OP. If I seem at all partisan it's to balance the scales. I strongly disagree with your premise that Chicago is or has become a superior law school to Columbia, and all your logic flowing from that flawed starting point should be thrown out. A higher percentage of Chicago students pursue clerkships (as a result of geography, statistical noise, academic aspirations, what have you) and a higher percentage of Columbia students enter firms in corporate departments where clerkships have far less value. That's the only numerically distinguishing feature. Faculty at both are terrific and prolific. The margin in overall value between either school and Harvard is slim at best.

If it would make your decision easier, most of the people I know at CLS were also admitted to Chicago and turned it down. I'm sure this is also true vise versa. There are also students at both schools who turned down Harvard. The point is the views you've presented are aberrant, not commonplace. The equally flawed but far more common consensus among practitioners and the occasional academic is that Columbia comes closest to Harvard and Yale. See http://www.businessinsider.com/law-scho ... ng-2014-11 and http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersa ... 2#image=49 (both ranking CLS 3rd behind HY) for public examples or https://s3.amazonaws.com/bcgsearch/imag ... e_2014.pdf for industry. These are shamefully flawed surveys but they reflect the public/prestige image you appear to be concerned with.

My one caveat would be that if you want to work in Chicago or stay in the midwest, UChi is probably an objectively superior option than CLS. For other primary markets such as NY and CA, it's a total wash.

PM me if you want any information about how I made this choice or how I've seen dozens of others make it. I don't think you should decide to ditch Chicago because you were a miserable undergraduate, but I also think you have to revisit your flawed outlook on the two law schools and talk to more people (outside Chicago) about the profession and academy.

I mean really it just seems like any difference between the two is so small that it would come down to cost no matter what your preferences are. Given that Hyde Park is a lot cheaper than Manhattan, that would mean that Chicago probably makes sense for more people than Columbia. Obvious exceptions are people who have SOs who would have an easier time getting work in NY than Chicago. Of course, as I made clear earlier up thread, I think that in most cases, someone measuring Chicago vs. Columbia @ sticker probably has better options in the lower T-14.

I agree. I received slightly more $ from CLS than Chicago, which evened out the total COAs. If I had a full ride or very close at Penn or Northwestern I would have taken that. I gather however that OP is more concerned with institutional standing than finances; this could all be moot when he/she gets into H and heads there.

[UnicornHunter]

I agree. I received slightly more $ from CLS than Chicago, which evened out the total COAs. If I had a full ride or very close at Penn or Northwestern I would have taken that. I gather however that OP is more concerned with institutional standing than finances; this could all be moot when he/she gets into H and heads there.

Well yea, I thought we were all ignoring the original post because it was so bad.


*edited for redundancy

[LawBron James]

So someone in the Columbia/NYU thread said something about Columbia not requiring professors to give B-'s, and someone said that this would actually be something worth considering.

From everything I've read about Chicago, they don't tend to be very lenient with grades (correct me if I'm wrong), so is this an actual, real factor that should be considered when choosing between these two schools?

[Canof09]

So someone in the Columbia/NYU thread said something about Columbia not requiring professors to give B-'s, and someone said that this would actually be something worth considering.

From everything I've read about Chicago, they don't tend to be very lenient with grades (correct me if I'm wrong), so is this an actual, real factor that should be considered when choosing between these two schools?

At the end of the day though the employment numbers are so comparable so who really cares about that? I think it is pretty well documented that you are going to have an approximately equal opportunity to succeed at either school after graduation. Also our grading system is insane and from what I can tell nobody really understands what our (UChicago) grades mean anyway.

[jbagelboy]

So someone in the Columbia/NYU thread said something about Columbia not requiring professors to give B-'s, and someone said that this would actually be something worth considering.

From everything I've read about Chicago, they don't tend to be very lenient with grades (correct me if I'm wrong), so is this an actual, real factor that should be considered when choosing between these two schools?

At the end of the day though the employment numbers are so comparable so who really cares about that? I think it is pretty well documented that you are going to have an approximately equal opportunity to succeed at either school after graduation. Also our grading system is insane and from what I can tell nobody really understands what our (UChicago) grades mean anyway.

Right. There are only a handful of firms that are truly grade selective at either school and those firms will take care to know the curves and cutoffs regardless.

[LawBron James]

So someone in the Columbia/NYU thread said something about Columbia not requiring professors to give B-'s, and someone said that this would actually be something worth considering.

From everything I've read about Chicago, they don't tend to be very lenient with grades (correct me if I'm wrong), so is this an actual, real factor that should be considered when choosing between these two schools?

At the end of the day though the employment numbers are so comparable so who really cares about that? I think it is pretty well documented that you are going to have an approximately equal opportunity to succeed at either school after graduation. Also our grading system is insane and from what I can tell nobody really understands what our (UChicago) grades mean anyway.

Makes sense. Thanks. I guess since their OCI success rates are about the same it doesn't make much of a difference.