Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

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gotsnork2
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby gotsnork2 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:50 pm

I know this topic has been discussed extensively on here before, and I believe most of the advice is warranted. But another thing to consider is that most post-undergraduate studies (professional and academic) are in the same boat as law school. I come from academics where the hiring rate for PhD's in my field is like 20% because the market is being flooded--this wasn't a problem, say, 20 years ago. When I started researching law and saw that glorious 50% hiring rate I was like, hot damn! That ain't too bad. I think the danger comes in being delusional about your goals. You're not going to be Patty Hewes; this isn't The Paper Chase. Same for PhD's: this isn't Dead Poets Society. The problem is that the hiring market for generic humanities B.A.'s is not good either, so kids are seeking law school or PhD's more than they were before. This has been highly documented (I apologize for not having any stats handy). Also, law school, much like humanities PhD's, doesn't necessarily weed out the weak like med school or veterinary school does early on so those who normally would be left in the dust can still hang in there. Not that med school doesn't produce it's shitty doctors, but more students drop out early on than law school (also highly documented--once again, sorry for no proof). So at the end more kids are graduating and not securing work because they probably shouldn't have made it through in the first place. If you want to pay for your degree, someone will give it to you. This dilutes the market and skews the numbers.

I think this has already been said before on here but just something to think about. (Oh, and I'm editing to add that I meant this in response to that some law schools need to close because I agree for the reasons stated above.)

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Pumpkin-Duke of Pie
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby Pumpkin-Duke of Pie » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:17 pm

gotsnork2 wrote:I know this topic has been discussed extensively on here before, and I believe most of the advice is warranted. But another thing to consider is that most post-undergraduate studies (professional and academic) are in the same boat as law school. I come from academics where the hiring rate for PhD's in my field is like 20% because the market is being flooded--this wasn't a problem, say, 20 years ago. When I started researching law and saw that glorious 50% hiring rate I was like, hot damn! That ain't too bad. I think the danger comes in being delusional about your goals. You're not going to be Patty Hewes; this isn't The Paper Chase. Same for PhD's: this isn't Dead Poets Society. The problem is that the hiring market for generic humanities B.A.'s is not good either, so kids are seeking law school or PhD's more than they were before. This has been highly documented (I apologize for not having any stats handy). Also, law school, much like humanities PhD's, doesn't necessarily weed out the weak like med school or veterinary school does early on so those who normally would be left in the dust can still hang in there. Not that med school doesn't produce it's shitty doctors, but more students drop out early on than law school (also highly documented--once again, sorry for no proof). So at the end more kids are graduating and not securing work because they probably shouldn't have made it through in the first place. If you want to pay for your degree, someone will give it to you. This dilutes the market and skews the numbers.

I think this has already been said before on here but just something to think about. (Oh, and I'm editing to add that I meant this in response to that some law schools need to close because I agree for the reasons stated above.)


I agree with everything except for the bolded. See: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/avma-survey-reveals-bleak-situation-new-veterinary-graduates?rel=canonical

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JCougar
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby JCougar » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:54 pm

gotsnork2 wrote:I know this topic has been discussed extensively on here before, and I believe most of the advice is warranted. But another thing to consider is that most post-undergraduate studies (professional and academic) are in the same boat as law school. I come from academics where the hiring rate for PhD's in my field is like 20% because the market is being flooded--this wasn't a problem, say, 20 years ago. When I started researching law and saw that glorious 50% hiring rate I was like, hot damn! That ain't too bad. I think the danger comes in being delusional about your goals. You're not going to be Patty Hewes; this isn't The Paper Chase. Same for PhD's: this isn't Dead Poets Society. The problem is that the hiring market for generic humanities B.A.'s is not good either, so kids are seeking law school or PhD's more than they were before. This has been highly documented (I apologize for not having any stats handy). Also, law school, much like humanities PhD's, doesn't necessarily weed out the weak like med school or veterinary school does early on so those who normally would be left in the dust can still hang in there. Not that med school doesn't produce it's shitty doctors, but more students drop out early on than law school (also highly documented--once again, sorry for no proof). So at the end more kids are graduating and not securing work because they probably shouldn't have made it through in the first place. If you want to pay for your degree, someone will give it to you. This dilutes the market and skews the numbers.

I think this has already been said before on here but just something to think about. (Oh, and I'm editing to add that I meant this in response to that some law schools need to close because I agree for the reasons stated above.)


I pretty much agree with all of this. I know people with Ivy PhDs that basically have no job prospects at all. I also know a bunch that are basically doing a tour of "fellowships" at one school and then the other.

The big difference is that PhD students usually get 100% of tuition covered plus a stipend. Sometimes this doesn't last more than 5-6 years, and if you're still churning away at your dissertation, you have to take out living expenses loans, etc. But it's nothing like law school debt. So you can probably go off and at least find a $40-75K job somewhere working at a business or government or something. A $50K salary with no debt would be a dream for like 75% of law grads these days.

YibanRen
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby YibanRen » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:49 pm

JCougar wrote:
gotsnork2 wrote:I know this topic has been discussed extensively on here before, and I believe most of the advice is warranted. But another thing to consider is that most post-undergraduate studies (professional and academic) are in the same boat as law school. I come from academics where the hiring rate for PhD's in my field is like 20% because the market is being flooded--this wasn't a problem, say, 20 years ago. When I started researching law and saw that glorious 50% hiring rate I was like, hot damn! That ain't too bad. I think the danger comes in being delusional about your goals. You're not going to be Patty Hewes; this isn't The Paper Chase. Same for PhD's: this isn't Dead Poets Society. The problem is that the hiring market for generic humanities B.A.'s is not good either, so kids are seeking law school or PhD's more than they were before. This has been highly documented (I apologize for not having any stats handy). Also, law school, much like humanities PhD's, doesn't necessarily weed out the weak like med school or veterinary school does early on so those who normally would be left in the dust can still hang in there. Not that med school doesn't produce it's shitty doctors, but more students drop out early on than law school (also highly documented--once again, sorry for no proof). So at the end more kids are graduating and not securing work because they probably shouldn't have made it through in the first place. If you want to pay for your degree, someone will give it to you. This dilutes the market and skews the numbers.

I think this has already been said before on here but just something to think about. (Oh, and I'm editing to add that I meant this in response to that some law schools need to close because I agree for the reasons stated above.)


I pretty much agree with all of this. I know people with Ivy PhDs that basically have no job prospects at all. I also know a bunch that are basically doing a tour of "fellowships" at one school and then the other.

The big difference is that PhD students usually get 100% of tuition covered plus a stipend. Sometimes this doesn't last more than 5-6 years, and if you're still churning away at your dissertation, you have to take out living expenses loans, etc. But it's nothing like law school debt. So you can probably go off and at least find a $40-75K job somewhere working at a business or government or something. A $50K salary with no debt would be a dream for like 75% of law grads these days.


The #1 real problem with law school selection is the asymmetry of information regarding prospects. People shy away from Caribbean medical schools when some boast 50% residency match rates. I mean, the general public jokes about it. Sitcoms make jokes about it. The rate of these schools putting people into six figure jobs has to be around the same rate as a top-14 school, or at least a top-20 school. Can you imagine if an Episode of Two and a Half men or the Big Bang Theory made fun of someone who was going to Wake Forest or Notre Dame or Yeshiva as sketchy? They should, because those schools are probably worse in terms of opportunity to your better carribean med school. The sickening part is that these are first tier schools. They are supposed to be some of the best. They are comparable to Carribean law school. What about Tier 2, and Tier 3, and Tier 4?

Now, there are some schools that really aren't analogous. Namely, look at like Wyoming or Texas Tech. Those schools generally don't serve biglaw, and are priced accordingly.

However, for like 70% of schools, the disconnect between candidate and prospect is still huge.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby UnicornHunter » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:00 am

YibanRen wrote:
JCougar wrote:
gotsnork2 wrote:I know this topic has been discussed extensively on here before, and I believe most of the advice is warranted. But another thing to consider is that most post-undergraduate studies (professional and academic) are in the same boat as law school. I come from academics where the hiring rate for PhD's in my field is like 20% because the market is being flooded--this wasn't a problem, say, 20 years ago. When I started researching law and saw that glorious 50% hiring rate I was like, hot damn! That ain't too bad. I think the danger comes in being delusional about your goals. You're not going to be Patty Hewes; this isn't The Paper Chase. Same for PhD's: this isn't Dead Poets Society. The problem is that the hiring market for generic humanities B.A.'s is not good either, so kids are seeking law school or PhD's more than they were before. This has been highly documented (I apologize for not having any stats handy). Also, law school, much like humanities PhD's, doesn't necessarily weed out the weak like med school or veterinary school does early on so those who normally would be left in the dust can still hang in there. Not that med school doesn't produce it's shitty doctors, but more students drop out early on than law school (also highly documented--once again, sorry for no proof). So at the end more kids are graduating and not securing work because they probably shouldn't have made it through in the first place. If you want to pay for your degree, someone will give it to you. This dilutes the market and skews the numbers.

I think this has already been said before on here but just something to think about. (Oh, and I'm editing to add that I meant this in response to that some law schools need to close because I agree for the reasons stated above.)


I pretty much agree with all of this. I know people with Ivy PhDs that basically have no job prospects at all. I also know a bunch that are basically doing a tour of "fellowships" at one school and then the other.

The big difference is that PhD students usually get 100% of tuition covered plus a stipend. Sometimes this doesn't last more than 5-6 years, and if you're still churning away at your dissertation, you have to take out living expenses loans, etc. But it's nothing like law school debt. So you can probably go off and at least find a $40-75K job somewhere working at a business or government or something. A $50K salary with no debt would be a dream for like 75% of law grads these days.


The #1 real problem with law school selection is the asymmetry of information regarding prospects. People shy away from Caribbean medical schools when some boast 50% residency match rates. I mean, the general public jokes about it. Sitcoms make jokes about it. The rate of these schools putting people into six figure jobs has to be around the same rate as a top-14 school, or at least a top-20 school. Can you imagine if an Episode of Two and a Half men or the Big Bang Theory made fun of someone who was going to Wake Forest or Notre Dame or Yeshiva as sketchy? They should, because those schools are probably worse in terms of opportunity to your better carribean med school. The sickening part is that these are first tier schools. They are supposed to be some of the best. They are comparable to Carribean law school. What about Tier 2, and Tier 3, and Tier 4?

Now, there are some schools that really aren't analogous. Namely, look at like Wyoming or Texas Tech. Those schools generally don't serve biglaw, and are priced accordingly.

However, for like 70% of schools, the disconnect between candidate and prospect is still huge.


And the Carribean medical schools have the added advantage of being located in paradise.

BigZuck
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:13 am

Didn't look up Wyoming but Texas Tech tuition is 22K a year, it's definitely not priced accordingly

mvp99
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby mvp99 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:20 am

hey someone here probably has posted this link already but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share it again..

https://www.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Searc ... bility=all

Some JD required and JD advantage jobs in there...

YibanRen
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby YibanRen » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:39 am

BigZuck wrote:Didn't look up Wyoming but Texas Tech tuition is 22K a year, it's definitely not priced accordingly


Resident is 13,000. Not so cheap... Many I thought some of the regional schools were cheaper.

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Businesslady
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby Businesslady » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:12 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Once they get the first job they're great, but it is very very very hard for them to get that first job because they just don't make sense to employers outside their degree field. People do eventually get jobs, yes, but it's nowhere near as simple as "just look for non-law jobs."
That's probably more of an indictment of the economy as a whole. Plus, I feel like you're artificially expanding things a bit when you extrapolate "just get a non-law job." Obviously there are a lot of industries where the JD does become a red flag - at the risk of going all ratfukr here, probably because the company sees a bright-eyed college grad as having fewer alternative exit options than a JD grad, even if that's actually untrue. I'm just saying that's not a universal problem.

Re: the economy, sure, but we live in the economy we live in. And I thought you opened this by saying "stop chasing law and find something else to do." How is that not "just get a non-law job"?

At the risk of going all ratfukr here, probably because it reflects a view of a market for critical thinking ability wherein bright-line rules are counterproductive at the top, identifies behavioral factors at the level of commercial/institutional actors that result in systemwide inefficiencies, and is broadly descriptive of these issues without being expliclitly prescriptive in vocational terms reducible to hivemind shorthand for people that need the comfort of a categorical imperative.

gotsnork2
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby gotsnork2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:43 am

Pumpkin-Duke of Pie wrote:
gotsnork2 wrote:I know this topic has been discussed extensively on here before, and I believe most of the advice is warranted. But another thing to consider is that most post-undergraduate studies (professional and academic) are in the same boat as law school. I come from academics where the hiring rate for PhD's in my field is like 20% because the market is being flooded--this wasn't a problem, say, 20 years ago. When I started researching law and saw that glorious 50% hiring rate I was like, hot damn! That ain't too bad. I think the danger comes in being delusional about your goals. You're not going to be Patty Hewes; this isn't The Paper Chase. Same for PhD's: this isn't Dead Poets Society. The problem is that the hiring market for generic humanities B.A.'s is not good either, so kids are seeking law school or PhD's more than they were before. This has been highly documented (I apologize for not having any stats handy). Also, law school, much like humanities PhD's, doesn't necessarily weed out the weak like med school or veterinary school does early on so those who normally would be left in the dust can still hang in there. Not that med school doesn't produce it's shitty doctors, but more students drop out early on than law school (also highly documented--once again, sorry for no proof). So at the end more kids are graduating and not securing work because they probably shouldn't have made it through in the first place. If you want to pay for your degree, someone will give it to you. This dilutes the market and skews the numbers.

I think this has already been said before on here but just something to think about. (Oh, and I'm editing to add that I meant this in response to that some law schools need to close because I agree for the reasons stated above.)


I agree with everything except for the bolded. See: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/avma-survey-reveals-bleak-situation-new-veterinary-graduates?rel=canonical


That's unfortunate--I was under the impression that veterinary school was a solid investment. It's depressing how much professional programs and higher ed are suffering from these hiring rates and the required loans.

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JCougar
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby JCougar » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:42 am

gotsnork2 wrote:That's unfortunate--I was under the impression that veterinary school was a solid investment. It's depressing how much professional programs and higher ed are suffering from these hiring rates and the required loans.


The Vet School Scam is kind of old. Placement rates have been kind of shitty for at least a decade.

Instead of being a "dream job" for argumentative, competitive over-achieving douchebags (law school), it's a "dream job" for semi-smart ex-hippies and trustafarians that "just want to work with animals all their life."

gotsnork2
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby gotsnork2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:06 pm

JCougar wrote:
gotsnork2 wrote:That's unfortunate--I was under the impression that veterinary school was a solid investment. It's depressing how much professional programs and higher ed are suffering from these hiring rates and the required loans.


The Vet School Scam is kind of old. Placement rates have been kind of shitty for at least a decade.

Instead of being a "dream job" for argumentative, competitive over-achieving douchebags (law school), it's a "dream job" for semi-smart ex-hippies and trustafarians that "just want to work with animals all their life."


I had a friend who went through vet school, and she said half the beginning class drops out because they go in expecting to save animals and because they're, so called, "animal lovers." Then, very quickly, they realize that being a vet is dealing with sick and dead animals all day--something a lot of "semi-smart ex-hippies" don't want to see. One night we were out drinking and she couldn't drink because she was on autopsy call--gross.

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and for that I'm sorry. To get back on track, no one should go to law school but first everyone should retake the LSAT.

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JCougar
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby JCougar » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:48 pm

Here's a nice, quick chart juxtaposing the general economic recovery with the legal industry faceplant:

http://www.americanlawyer.com/id=120271 ... 0126224708

miamiri
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby miamiri » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:41 pm

ymmv wrote:
Arad wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
onionz wrote:But the idea that it's totally random or you individually only have 10% to be top 10% is wrong. You should know yourself and what you can commit to. This is not to give hope to what I think is well-described "special snowflake" syndrome. As has been repeated-there are a lot of smart kids with similar credentials around you. Typically you can't just turn it on and be someone else if that's not your MO.


How in the blue fuck can you possibly assess your ability to compete before you've even stepped in the ring?


Young padawan, you are right in assuming you can't assess your ability to compete in an academic manner, but you can pretty accurately assess your social skills. I created an algorithm to help people like you determine whether or not you have what it takes socially

If:
-you've been turned down by every girl you've ever tried to pull
-your "crew" looks like they could be the cast of the Big Bang Theory
-you're saltier than the Dead Sea
-you get nervous conversing with new people/your crush
-you're just ugly (repulsive is more approriate)
-your mom picks your clothes still
-you don't have the confidence to approach new people (especially those of higher stature than you)
-you've banged under 10 girls (and tried over 150 times)
-you are a depressing person to be around (If you're as cynical as you are on these forums in real life, this probably applies to you)
-you complain too much (aka annoying b_tch)
-people don't have a tendency to gravitate towards you

AND

-your grades are mediocre:

You are probably getting knocked out in the first round


MODS PLZ.


this

AReasonableMan
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:16 pm

The above algorithm is dead wrong. 20 minute formal interviews are a horrible gauge for analyzing any of these traits. The bar for fit (don't be hated) is so low that the fact >1% are no offered for fit indicates that the process does a terrible job at this. Most of it comes down to script delivery, and comfortableness in an interview setting, not social acumen.

Also, I reiterate that the bar on law school exams is not very high unless you're trying to get an A. I don't really think sub-B grades are the curve so much as people not getting it. Honor codes permitting, I think posting up different exams would be useful. Many of the issues that are tested in a given test are predictable as you're cramming a hornbook. If an element is intent, you're always going to get alcohol/schitzo outbreak or something vague on offer/acceptance. The whole thing is a game. The ability to adapt to a game is somewhat indicative of the ability to adapt to practice.

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romothesavior
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:59 pm

romothesavior wrote:Why is this thread still going

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rpupkin
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:02 pm

romothesavior wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Why is this thread still going

It's a zombie thread in search of brains.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:42 am

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