Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

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romothesavior
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:15 pm

There are quite a few jobs in small towns, but not a lot of people want to work in rural Indiana or wherever.

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jumpin munkey
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby jumpin munkey » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:24 pm

ymmv wrote:
Because (1) 1L is much more intense, (2) the two semesters of 1L matter infinitely more for employment prospects than all eight of your undergraduate semesters, (3) top law schools, of which there are only a scant few, are more difficult to get into that top undergrad institutions, of which there are arguably a hundred a more, and (4) your entire grade is the result of a single exam, which is rarely ever the case in American universities and which is something much harder to control the outcome of than multiple discrete assignments over the course of a semester, and (5) law school professors can be raving lunatics.

Or you could just take the word of the thousands of us who were at the very top of our UG classes, even when curved, and found our law school grades just north of random. That said, those who had curved UG classes will probably be a little more prepared for the brutality of the system.


Eh -- if you define "top undergrad institutions" widely enough, this is true, but it's certainly a helluva lot easier to get into Columbia Law School than Columbia University. Tons of people apply to CLS guaranteed to get in whereas hardly anyone has the same assurance for the college.

andythefir
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby andythefir » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:28 pm

romothesavior wrote:There are quite a few jobs in small towns, but not a lot of people want to work in rural Indiana or wherever.


Exactly right, but the general tone of the Vale of Tears is settling for not being an attorney rather than settling for not living in a fun town.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:28 pm

andythefir wrote:This thread took a bit of a strange turn, but I have some comments about the OP.

I did go to ND, although on a scholarship, and it worked out very well for me. I'm an ADA in a small town, and I've done 20 trials in the 4 months since I've been sworn in. I make very decent money ($50) in a very cheap area, and ND pays almost all of my loans through its LRAP (not PAYE, either-I'm actually paying back the full amount so that I can jump to the private side if I want). What's probably most relevant to this thread is that my office has multiple openings literally anyone with a bar card can get. We've hired <3.0 GPAs from Cooley and Thomas Jefferson just since I started. I posted the jobs and my boss' contact info in the Vale of Tears, but my boss didn't get a single resume.

The hype of the Vale of Tears is real if you won't do some jobs. I know, I was no-offered from my summer firm and sent hundreds of applications before I found anything. But if you're willing to work in small towns there are jobs.


Those lazy law students!

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sublime
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby sublime » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:45 pm

..

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ymmv
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby ymmv » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:52 pm

sublime wrote:w/r/t earlier discussion of randomness of grades, imo they aren't truly random, although that is part of it. The main thing people are trying to convey when they say random is that you can't know how you will do until you do it. LS exam writing is a skill you have likely never had to do (and if you have, it wasn't curved, and if it was, it was likely against lesser competition), so you have no way to know how you will do, so even if you are smart, you shouldn't count on anything.

At my school at the top, there are people who worked their way there, people who worked pretty hard but are also really smart, and some people who didn't really work that hard, but are either extremely intelligent or are smart enough and write exams well.

IME, amount of work put in only matters much at the margins - the few ppl who don't understand the law are fucked, and the ones who worked like 60 or more hours a week probably have at least a small advantage, but for like 80% of people, mere knowledge of the law isn't moving the needle.


I mean this is all true but this exact post has already been made ten times in this thread. If the omniscient 0Ls don't get it by now we might as well let them find out for themselves.

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jumpin munkey
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby jumpin munkey » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:54 pm

sublime wrote:w/r/t earlier discussion of randomness of grades, imo they aren't truly random, although that is part of it. The main thing people are trying to convey when they say random is that you can't know how you will do until you do it. LS exam writing is a skill you have likely never had to do (and if you have, it wasn't curved, and if it was, it was likely against lesser competition), so you have no way to know how you will do, so even if you are smart, you shouldn't count on anything.



I agree that nobody here actually thinks they're random (i.e., nobody will have a hard time deciding whether they'd rather hire the 3.9 or the 3.1 from Georgetown). I'd add to the bolded though that the curve makes for a thin margins -- there's virtually no difference between the best B+ exam and the lowest A- exam, but straight A-s is going to be worlds apart from straight B+s in terms of job prospects at most schools.

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sublime
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby sublime » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:56 pm

..

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baal hadad
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby baal hadad » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:59 pm

andythefir wrote:
romothesavior wrote:There are quite a few jobs in small towns, but not a lot of people want to work in rural Indiana or wherever.


Exactly right, but the general tone of the Vale of Tears is settling for not being an attorney rather than settling for not living in a fun town.

When I didn't have a job I would have applied for those ADA positions straight away

Although I do get that some people cant just pick up and move to random ass places if they have kids or wives or whatever

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Louis1127
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby Louis1127 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:04 am

andythefir wrote: But if you're willing to work in small towns there are jobs.

It's probably important to note that many small towns are nativist and dont like outsiders because, well I dont know its pretty stupid why. But I think it's not really accurate to suggest that, well just go to bumfuck county and get in with a small firm or DA's office if your biglaw gig doesn't work out! Besides their DAs office has probably been subjected to ridiculous budget cuts from a super red county commission/whatever they are called in other areas.

andythefir
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby andythefir » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:29 am

Louis1127 wrote:
andythefir wrote: But if you're willing to work in small towns there are jobs.

It's probably important to note that many small towns are nativist and dont like outsiders because, well I dont know its pretty stupid why. But I think it's not really accurate to suggest that, well just go to bumfuck county and get in with a small firm or DA's office if your biglaw gig doesn't work out! Besides their DAs office has probably been subjected to ridiculous budget cuts from a super red county commission/whatever they are called in other areas.


In NM, where I'm from and where I work, this is true of the bigger cities (500k+). In fact, I got hometowned out of my hometown because I didn't go to the local school. But the towns of 50k are completely different. In my office of 9, only 3 of us are from the state at all, and none of us are from towns even close to the office. In middle of nowhere NM my office has people from Illinois, Vermont, Ohio, Oklahoma, Montana, and New York. None of us had even been to the town before we interviewed. As for budget cuts, this office had savage cuts in 2009-2012 but has been steadily hiring since.

A big desirable city's DA office is not a viable backup plan. But small towns in the middle of nowhere can and will hire.

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Louis1127
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby Louis1127 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:43 am

andythefir wrote:
Louis1127 wrote:
andythefir wrote: But if you're willing to work in small towns there are jobs.

It's probably important to note that many small towns are nativist and dont like outsiders because, well I dont know its pretty stupid why. But I think it's not really accurate to suggest that, well just go to bumfuck county and get in with a small firm or DA's office if your biglaw gig doesn't work out! Besides their DAs office has probably been subjected to ridiculous budget cuts from a super red county commission/whatever they are called in other areas.


In NM, where I'm from and where I work, this is true of the bigger cities (500k+). In fact, I got hometowned out of my hometown because I didn't go to the local school. But the towns of 50k are completely different. In my office of 9, only 3 of us are from the state at all, and none of us are from towns even close to the office. In middle of nowhere NM my office has people from Illinois, Vermont, Ohio, Oklahoma, Montana, and New York. None of us had even been to the town before we interviewed. As for budget cuts, this office had savage cuts in 2009-2012 but has been steadily hiring since.

A big desirable city's DA office is not a viable backup plan. But small towns in the middle of nowhere can and will hire.

I appreciate this perspective. It is very different from small/medium towns where I am from and have worked.

And lol at being "outhometowned" :lol:

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2014
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby 2014 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:48 pm

When I opened this thread I did not expect 6 pages discussing whether or not grading is a meritocracy (PSA it's not), I'm a little disappointed :(

xiao_long
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby xiao_long » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:20 pm

The moral of the story; unless you are utterly desperate, reconsider your desire to attend law school.

Law school is a severely risky proposition if you're at a good school, and a catastrophically risky proposition if you're at a most other places.

50 years ago, law used to be a good path for students from low to moderate income families to ascend to the upper-middle class. Tuition then was at least reasonable, and there weren't as many diploma mills around. Today, it is a vastly different ball game. For instance, at my local law school, tuition increased over 40 percent over the span of 5 years! Job prospects remain the same as it always had - dismal. How do you make sense of those numbers?

So, unless you have absolutely zero employment prospects with your BA and want to take a gamble with your life, then by all means go to law school! But be forewarned.

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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:33 pm

xiao_long wrote:The moral of the story; unless you are utterly desperate, reconsider your desire to attend law school.

Law school is a severely risky proposition if you're at a good school, and a catastrophically risky proposition if you're at a most other places.

50 years ago, law used to be a good path for students from low to moderate income families to ascend to the upper-middle class. Tuition then was at least reasonable, and there weren't as many diploma mills around. Today, it is a vastly different ball game. For instance, at my local law school, tuition increased over 40 percent over the span of 5 years! Job prospects remain the same as it always had - dismal. How do you make sense of those numbers?

So, unless you have absolutely zero employment prospects with your BA and want to take a gamble with your life, then by all means go to law school! But be forewarned.


This is the wrong idea again. 50 years ago law was a way for the rich or upper middle class to make an easy living and be wealthy. That day has come and gone now. It's now one of the hardest most miserable professions there is, though financial rewards are still there. Or it's a fine job but pays dogshit. The jobs dwindling (which is due to less demand because of automation and outsourcing and not a recession) along with outrageous law school tuitions, make law more risky now than it has been in the past. So, if you aren't risk averse and want money, there are better options (opening your own business). If you are risk averse and want money, then law has taken a significant hit from where it was even 10 years ago.

What law is now - it is a way for poor/middle class people to climb ranks at a slight risk, without a ton of downside if you have minimal options. You can make good money in miserable jobs or livable money in cool jobs - something that should be appealing for lower and lower middle class people. IF you are rich and have options, and go to law school, you are fucking up in today's world.

xiao_long
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby xiao_long » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:39 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
xiao_long wrote:The moral of the story; unless you are utterly desperate, reconsider your desire to attend law school.

Law school is a severely risky proposition if you're at a good school, and a catastrophically risky proposition if you're at a most other places.

50 years ago, law used to be a good path for students from low to moderate income families to ascend to the upper-middle class. Tuition then was at least reasonable, and there weren't as many diploma mills around. Today, it is a vastly different ball game. For instance, at my local law school, tuition increased over 40 percent over the span of 5 years! Job prospects remain the same as it always had - dismal. How do you make sense of those numbers?

So, unless you have absolutely zero employment prospects with your BA and want to take a gamble with your life, then by all means go to law school! But be forewarned.


This is the wrong idea again. 50 years ago law was a way for the rich or upper middle class to make an easy living and be wealthy. That day has come and gone now. It's now one of the hardest most miserable professions there is, though financial rewards are still there. Or it's a fine job but pays dogshit. The jobs dwindling (which is due to less demand because of automation and outsourcing and not a recession) along with outrageous law school tuitions, make law more risky now than it has been in the past. So, if you aren't risk averse and want money, there are better options (opening your own business). If you are risk averse and want money, then law has taken a significant hit from where it was even 10 years ago.

What law is now - it is a way for poor/middle class people to climb ranks at a slight risk, without a ton of downside if you have minimal options. You can make good money in miserable jobs or livable money in cool jobs - something that should be appealing for lower and lower middle class people. IF you are rich and have options, and go to law school, you are fucking up in today's world.


Credited. This might be the reason why the sons of Mitt Romney and daughters of David Rubenstein all went to business school, even though their fathers all had JDs. The rich and successful have long figured out law school is a terrible value proposition.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:52 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Median pwnd is such a stupid term. You are just as likely to hit top 10% as you are bottom 10%. Median is not fucking up, it's keeping up with the pack. You should be proud to get median


This. Also, DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!

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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:33 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
LeDique wrote:Idunno if Paulo is really qualified to answer. If I remember right, he assigned his 1L property class a 2 page free writing exercise as their final exam. The person who got the highest grade in the class wrote a haiku about a fat person adversely possessing an airplane seat.



This would probably work just as well as an issue-spotting exam for all practical purposes.


This post was underrated.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:00 pm

Desert Fox wrote:the material is easy. No concept in law school is difficult to understand. So good luck standing out when competing against other people with similar skills. It would be like if Math School was just who could do the most multiplication and addition problems in 3 hours.


Stealing this. Best description of a law school exam I've heard.

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m27
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby m27 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:34 pm

.
Last edited by m27 on Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fats provolone
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby fats provolone » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:35 pm

wut

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CaptainJapan
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby CaptainJapan » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:58 pm

I'm getting the slightest suspicion TLS may skew pessimistic...does anyone with ambition really expect to enjoy their mid/late 20s?

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fats provolone
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby fats provolone » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:59 pm

CaptainJapan wrote:I'm getting the slightest suspicion TLS may skew pessimistic...does anyone with ambition really expect to enjoy their mid/late 20s?

wut

TheNextAmendment
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby TheNextAmendment » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:03 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:the material is easy. No concept in law school is difficult to understand. So good luck standing out when competing against other people with similar skills. It would be like if Math School was just who could do the most multiplication and addition problems in 3 hours.


Stealing this. Best description of a law school exam I've heard.

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baal hadad
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Re: Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS

Postby baal hadad » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:43 am

CaptainJapan wrote:I'm getting the slightest suspicion TLS may skew pessimistic...does anyone with ambition really expect to enjoy their mid/late 20s?

Lol




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