Vale of Tears is the Most Horrifying Thread on TLS Forum

[AReasonableMan]

I like the formula that AReasonableMan's posts take, without exception.

First sentence is (at least somewhat) responsive to the post/topic at issue

Second sentence is the beginning of an off the wall analogy

Words

Words

Then an attempt to bring it back around to the topic at hand that usually falls flat on its face but is occasionally really insightful

I just wish they were consistently funny

Fair insight. The hope is that the more colorful the analogy the funnier it will be. But the general idea that grades should be based on practical application, and not understanding of the law is crazy.

At lowly ranked schools, we'd want to cut out everything like Fed Courts, Con Law, everything in criminal law except reckless driving and intoxication. We'd also want to assign points for exams that go back and forth b/w English and another language (boosts potential clientele), award points based on attractiveness and ability to manipulate the google formula so their solo practice shows up on Page 1. You also always want to give extra points based on how to be just sleazy enough to break every PR rule in the book with the subtlety to never get caught.

Also, the value of grades is being very overrated. Normally it's the only way to distinguish b/w candidates.

[Pragmatic Gun]

This thread was started by da rascal.

[JCougar]

Also, the value of grades is being very overrated. Normally it's the only way to distinguish b/w candidates.

Not really. They basically shut like 90% of law graduates out of any jobs that are in any way worth going to law school for.

[pancakes3]

Also, the value of grades is being very overrated. Normally it's the only way to distinguish b/w candidates.

Not really. They basically shut like 90% of law graduates out of any jobs that are in any way worth going to law school for.

Genuinely curious, is that figure accurate wrt how many newly minted JD's get biglaw?

[JCougar]

Genuinely curious, is that figure accurate wrt how many newly minted JD's get biglaw?

I think it's pretty close. It might be better once these smaller entering classes graduate.

My class had over 50,000 students. I think the current class about to graduate is closer to 40,000.

Upon information and belief, I think there's around 3,500 to 4,000 Biglaw people hired via OCI for each class.

FedGov positions are actually probably even more desirable due much better hours, no billables, PSLF, and a more secure job. But with tight budgets, these very limited number of positions are almost all going to attorneys with experience or people with impeccable credentials, and don't absorb a meaningful number of law grads.

[star fox]

I think I saw something that said about 12.9 % of 2013 grads were at large firms. And presumably some of the other ones got good jobs too.

[Tiago Splitter]

I think I saw something that said about 12.9 % of 2013 grads were at large firms. And presumably some of the other ones got good jobs too.

6100 out of like 48k from the class of 2013 started with firms of 100+. So yeah that sounds abut right. The worst biglaw class was 2011 where the number was only 4700. 2007-2008 were in the 8000-8500 range.

[JCougar]

I think I saw something that said about 12.9 % of 2013 grads were at large firms. And presumably some of the other ones got good jobs too.

6100 out of like 48k from the class of 2013 started with firms of 100+. So yeah that sounds abut right. The worst biglaw class was 2011 where the number was only 4700. 2007-2008 were in the 8000-8500 range.

Keep in mind that 100+ is smaller than the NLJ 250, which is typically considered "Biglaw" on here. So the number is going to vary according to where you make the cutoff. I think very few of those 100-150 attorney firms pay $160K. Some of them are slip n' fall/bankrupcy mills that pay people like $40K and you're lucky to last more than 8 months.

[Tiago Splitter]

I think I saw something that said about 12.9 % of 2013 grads were at large firms. And presumably some of the other ones got good jobs too.

6100 out of like 48k from the class of 2013 started with firms of 100+. So yeah that sounds abut right. The worst biglaw class was 2011 where the number was only 4700. 2007-2008 were in the 8000-8500 range.

Keep in mind that 100+ is smaller than the NLJ 250, which is typically considered "Biglaw" on here. So the number is going to vary according to where you make the cutoff. I think very few of those 100-150 attorney firms pay $160K. Some of them are slip n' fall/bankrupcy mills that pay people like $40K and you're lucky to last more than 8 months.

True but we're also ignoring Fed clerks and the firms with fewer than 100 attorneys that are legitimately sweet gigs.

Also of the 6100 only about 1000 are in the 101-250 bucket so it doesn't make a huge difference.

[JCougar]

The other thing is that many of the other non-biglaw but yet still desirable jobs don't care about grades as much. There's only a few Fed agencies where grades are as important as Biglaw. Probably about half of them don't even ask for a transcript. And almost no state gov jobs do so.

So while this narrow sliver of jobs is probably one of the only pathways out of permanent poverty for law grads without top grades, it also shouldn't count toward the percent for which grades will exclude them. And the only reason these positions lead you out of poverty is because essentially, the federal government forgives your debt after 10 years. Because without this, a lot of these state and local government positions are essentially shitlaw with better hours: endless administrative hearings and appeals over the most frivolous and tedious bullcrap with little to no promotion potential. You could probably do better for yourself financially by going to nursing school.

Nevertheless, I can still amend my statement to say that non-top grades cut about 85% of all JD grads off from any positions out there that are in any way worth going to law school for.

And just outside that 10-15% cutoff isn't a gently-rolling gradient into debt-owned and unemployed for life. It's a sheer precipice dropping off into a bottomless abyss. And of course, within that 10-15%, grads are mostly employed at firms with some of the highest attrition rates of any employer in the entire country.

It's important for prospective students to know how utterly ghetto, unjust, dishonest, and scammy this entire process is.

[AReasonableMan]

The idea that grades are nearly omnipotent in either direction is not only inaccurate but offensive. It may be a necessary condition at lower ranked schools, sure, but you're overrating their importance as anything more than being over/under a floor.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The other thing is that many of the other non-biglaw but yet still desirable jobs don't care about grades as much. There's only a few Fed agencies where grades are as important as Biglaw. Probably about half of them don't even ask for a transcript. And almost no state gov jobs do so.

So while this narrow sliver of jobs is probably one of the only pathways out of permanent poverty for law grads without top grades, it also shouldn't count toward the percent for which grades will exclude them. And the only reason these positions lead you out of poverty is because essentially, the federal government forgives your debt after 10 years. Because without this, a lot of these state and local government positions are essentially shitlaw with better hours: endless administrative hearings and appeals over the most frivolous and tedious bullcrap with little to no promotion potential. You could probably do better for yourself financially by going to nursing school.

Nevertheless, I can still amend my statement to say that non-top grades cut about 85% of all JD grads off from any positions out there that are in any way worth going to law school for.

And just outside that 10-15% cutoff isn't a gently-rolling gradient into debt-owned and unemployed for life. It's a sheer precipice dropping off into a bottomless abyss. And of course, within that 10-15%, grads are mostly employed at firms with some of the highest attrition rates of any employer in the entire country.

It's important for prospective students to know how utterly ghetto, unjust, dishonest, and scammy this entire process is.

I feel like this totally overlooks criminal law jobs, though. Most DAs/PDs don't really care about people's grades, and for many people these jobs are well worth going to law school for. I don't know how many of these jobs there are, so I'm not saying they completely change the landscape or anything, but I feel like they're worth mentioning.

[twenty 8]

I recently encountered a number of professionals making a very good living as salespeople. Nice cars, homes. As one of them told me, they went to college to work in another profession and they never gave sales a second thought but now they’d never leave. They come and go as they please (one of my favorite perks of being a lawyer).

A good part of their day is just servicing clientele. Isn’t sales a viable option for those in the vale? I would think anyone who is personable and outgoing could certainly land on their feet making good money as a salesperson. At some point the equation of 40,000 JDs chasing 25,000 openings might necessitate a new direction. I wonder if there is a stat estimating the percentage of those with JDs who went into sales. I would think having a JD provides a huge advantage.

[Johann]

i recently read an article about how our generation isnt filling sales jobs at the same rate as previous generations because we view it as risky. but its def a field where theres room to take people.

[JCougar]

I feel like this totally overlooks criminal law jobs, though. Most DAs/PDs don't really care about people's grades, and for many people these jobs are well worth going to law school for. I don't know how many of these jobs there are, so I'm not saying they completely change the landscape or anything, but I feel like they're worth mentioning.

Well, those are government jobs, so I excluded them. There's a few government jobs that care more about interest and also qualify you for PSLF. They're more public interest-oriented. IMO, these jobs are a real coup if you can get them. But they're also pretty competitive because of the PSLF.

[JCougar]

I used to have a sales job, and I was really fucking good at it. If you can get into corporate sales, you can make more than most lawyers.

I like risky, high pressure work. That's why I thought litigation would be a good fit. I actually would prefer plaintiff-side because of this. But openings at good plaintiff firms are a rarer unicorn than just about anything else until you have a decent amount of experience.

[Pumpkin-Duke of Pie]

The other thing is that many of the other non-biglaw but yet still desirable jobs don't care about grades as much. There's only a few Fed agencies where grades are as important as Biglaw. Probably about half of them don't even ask for a transcript. And almost no state gov jobs do so.

So while this narrow sliver of jobs is probably one of the only pathways out of permanent poverty for law grads without top grades, it also shouldn't count toward the percent for which grades will exclude them. And the only reason these positions lead you out of poverty is because essentially, the federal government forgives your debt after 10 years. Because without this, a lot of these state and local government positions are essentially shitlaw with better hours: endless administrative hearings and appeals over the most frivolous and tedious bullcrap with little to no promotion potential. You could probably do better for yourself financially by going to nursing school.

Nevertheless, I can still amend my statement to say that non-top grades cut about 85% of all JD grads off from any positions out there that are in any way worth going to law school for.

And just outside that 10-15% cutoff isn't a gently-rolling gradient into debt-owned and unemployed for life. It's a sheer precipice dropping off into a bottomless abyss. And of course, within that 10-15%, grads are mostly employed at firms with some of the highest attrition rates of any employer in the entire country.

It's important for prospective students to know how utterly ghetto, unjust, dishonest, and scammy this entire process is.

I feel like this totally overlooks criminal law jobs, though. Most DAs/PDs don't really care about people's grades, and for many people these jobs are well worth going to law school for. I don't know how many of these jobs there are, so I'm not saying they completely change the landscape or anything, but I feel like they're worth mentioning.

Knowing a few people who do DA or PD work, I've got to say that this is pretty region dependent. Doing DA or PD work in a small town not filled with people cooking meth, hustling coke or something, is, from what I've heard, pretty tedious after a couple of years or so. There's only so many DUI or petty theft cases one can take before the repidity starts to become nauseating. Now if it's DA/PD in a decent metro area then I tentatively agree. Most of the people I know, or have talked to, say they enjoy their job for the most part. However, these positions are obviously very competitive, because who would want to work in bufu Kansas over New York/Chicago/LA

[A. Nony Mouse]

All I meant was that gauging value of jobs based on who goes to high-paying firms is perhaps not the complete picture.

[Pumpkin-Duke of Pie]

Ah, gotcha, that's a fair assessment.

[twenty]

I know I've said this before and gotten "lol 1L" as a response, but I'm still not entirely sure why "stop chasing law and find something else to do" isn't TCR for a lot of unemployed JDs. Getting a non-legal job that qualifies for PSLF is not nearly as hard as getting a JD-required PSLF-eligible job.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Ah, gotcha, that's a fair assessment.

And I should add I don't disagree with what you said about small-town DA/PDing, either.

I know I've said this before and gotten "lol 1L" as a response, but I'm still not entirely sure why "stop chasing law and find something else to do" isn't TCR for a lot of unemployed JDs. Getting a non-legal job that qualifies for PSLF is not nearly as hard as getting a JD-required PSLF-eligible job.

I think you overestimate how easy it is to get a non-legal PSLF job when you're a K-JD who hasn't done anything but go to school. One of the reasons people chase law and legal-related/JD-preferred jobs is because those are the only ones where having a JD is relevant. If having a JD is the only thing you have going for you, that's where you're going to look.

I mean, you're right, people should find other things to do, and many people do, but it's not always as simple as it sounds.

[UnicornHunter]

I think I saw something that said about 12.9 % of 2013 grads were at large firms. And presumably some of the other ones got good jobs too.

6100 out of like 48k from the class of 2013 started with firms of 100+. So yeah that sounds abut right. The worst biglaw class was 2011 where the number was only 4700. 2007-2008 were in the 8000-8500 range.

Keep in mind that 100+ is smaller than the NLJ 250, which is typically considered "Biglaw" on here. So the number is going to vary according to where you make the cutoff. I think very few of those 100-150 attorney firms pay $160K. Some of them are slip n' fall/bankrupcy mills that pay people like $40K and you're lucky to last more than 8 months.

True but we're also ignoring Fed clerks and the firms with fewer than 100 attorneys that are legitimately sweet gigs.

Also of the 6100 only about 1000 are in the 101-250 bucket so it doesn't make a huge difference.

On the other hand, the number also includes non-partner track associates.

[Tiago Splitter]

On the other hand, the number also includes non-partner track associates.

And how many of those are there?

[UnicornHunter]

On the other hand, the number also includes non-partner track associates.

And how many of those are there?

This is a good question, but I'm willing to bet it's a significant enough number to balance out the fed clerks or lit boutique associates who don't show up in the "Big Law" numbers.

[prezidentv8]

I know I've said this before and gotten "lol 1L" as a response, but I'm still not entirely sure why "stop chasing law and find something else to do" isn't TCR for a lot of unemployed JDs. Getting a non-legal job that qualifies for PSLF is not nearly as hard as getting a JD-required PSLF-eligible job.

I think you overestimate how easy it is to get a non-legal PSLF job when you're a K-JD who hasn't done anything but go to school. One of the reasons people chase law and legal-related/JD-preferred jobs is because those are the only ones where having a JD is relevant. If having a JD is the only thing you have going for you, that's where you're going to look.

I mean, you're right, people should find other things to do, and many people do, but it's not always as simple as it sounds.

This may be one of those cases where two things can be equally true.