BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

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star fox
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby star fox » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:52 pm

NYCFAN1 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:How come UVA doesn't struggle as much as Michigan? Better CSO/less dumb students failing the school?


Are you running some weird schtick to try to convince people that Texas is better than Michigan? You don't go to any of the t14 schools, and you aren't a prospective student trying to decide between t14 schools. Why are you shilling?

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BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:08 pm

star fox wrote:
NYCFAN1 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:How come UVA doesn't struggle as much as Michigan? Better CSO/less dumb students failing the school?


Are you running some weird schtick to try to convince people that Texas is better than Michigan? You don't go to any of the t14 schools, and you aren't a prospective student trying to decide between t14 schools. Why are you shilling?

Image


Thanks John

I was wondering where NYC pulled his ad hom from and just looked to see if maybe we had ever posted in the same thread and he had caught me in the act before. Here's me shilling the crap out of my beloved T15 UT, must be where he got it from:

BigZuck wrote:The typical law student is a know-nothing about anything K-JD or otherwise someone who doesn't have anything better to do with their life and a vague sense that lawyer=accomplished. Those people really shouldn't go to schools that aren't in the T14. At least by going to a T14, they'll most likely have a job fall into their lap. And it will probably be high paying, so at least they can pay down the debt. At a school like the OP is talking about, tons of those people will be boned.

I don't think everyone should go to a T14. But the vast, vast majority of people who go to law school probably shouldn't go unless it's a T14 IMO.

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Lavitz
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Lavitz » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:52 am

Looks like I missed a fun thread.
bruinfan10 wrote:Given that I reviewed Cornell's GPA cutoff information alongside Michigan's, I'm not gonna argue about facts Hannity-style with the trolls in here. /thread.

I've seen you make this claim about the GPA cutoffs a bunch of times. Obviously I don't have Michigan's data, so I can't double-check you, but I have Cornell's now and I wonder: 1) what is Mich's median and 2) have you just been comparing raw GPAs or have you been accounting for the fact that Cornell may have more grade inflation than Michigan?

There's lots of self-selection, I have anecdotes of people at various GPAs doing well and not doing well in non-NYC markets, and we don't all end up in "mediocre" NYC firms. But none of this matters because OP should retake or at least wait for scholarship info and then ask again with geographic preferences. FWIW, I wouldn't have come here or Michigan at sticker.

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:02 pm

Lavitz wrote:Looks like I missed a fun thread.
bruinfan10 wrote:Given that I reviewed Cornell's GPA cutoff information alongside Michigan's, I'm not gonna argue about facts Hannity-style with the trolls in here. /thread.

I've seen you make this claim about the GPA cutoffs a bunch of times. Obviously I don't have Michigan's data, so I can't double-check you, but I have Cornell's now and I wonder: 1) what is Mich's median and 2) have you just been comparing raw GPAs or have you been accounting for the fact that Cornell may have more grade inflation than Michigan?

There's lots of self-selection, I have anecdotes of people at various GPAs doing well and not doing well in non-NYC markets, and we don't all end up in "mediocre" NYC firms. But none of this matters because OP should retake or at least wait for scholarship info and then ask again with geographic preferences. FWIW, I wouldn't have come here or Michigan at sticker.

Cornell's median is around a 3.35 (see https://support.law.cornell.edu/student ... y_2015.pdf).

Michigan's median is around 3.2-3.3 (that variation reflects that UM just made the curve a little bit more generous in the last year or two, see https://www.law.umich.edu/currentstuden ... 202013.pdf).

The skepticism is healthy though broseidon! I just went through the comparison last cycle for a family member, so I had to try and stay pretty objective, although in the end they ditched all of us proles and went with a T6.
Last edited by bruinfan10 on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:13 pm

You do realize that the mean is not the same thing as median?

"Faculty grading policy calls upon each faculty member to grade a course, including problem
courses and seminars, so that the mean grade for JD students in the course approximates 3.35
(the acceptable variation can range between 3.2 and 3.5). This policy is subject only to very
limited exceptions."


a 3.35 at Cornell is below median by a fair amount.
Last edited by runinthefront on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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runthetrap1990
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runthetrap1990 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:16 pm

runinthefront wrote:Cornell's median is around a 3.45.


bruinfan10 wrote:Cornell's median is around a 3.35 (see https://support.law.cornell.edu/student ... y_2015.pdf).



that obfuscation though

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:20 pm

runinthefront wrote:You do realize that the mean is not the same thing as median?

a 3.35 at Cornell is below median by a fair amount.

The poster I responded to asked me what the medians were; that's all the data I could find on that question. Re: your post, I don't have a source that lists the GPA for the 1L sitting right at the 50% class rank for each school prior to OCI.

Re: your edit above I'll take your word for the Cornell 1L 50% cutoff being 3.45, and I assume that Michigan's 1L 50% cutoff is similarly higher than the school's current 3.3 mean, but I don't have links to school docs on that point.

Also, on a side note, I have a feeling that 1L GPAs are lower than graduation GPAs because you're stuck with curved core doctrinals first year (rather than Law & Basketweaving seminars with a 3.7 as the lowest grade), and I'm curious if you're saying a 3.45 is the top-50% mark at graduation. If you are, I think your condescension might be a little out of place. Either way, I don't think there's a huge difference between the two schools' curves, although it looks like Cornell might have slightly more grade inflation.
Last edited by bruinfan10 on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Desert Fox
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:37 pm

You guys can't just compare medians either. The shape of the distribution counts.

Also lol at michigan being close to NU than UVA. UVA and Mich wish they were NU

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:38 pm

Desert Fox wrote:You guys can't just compare medians either. The shape of the distribution counts.

Also lol at michigan being close to NU than UVA. UVA and Mich wish they were NU

meh. I think all the T-13s below Chicago are kinda hunger-gamesy.

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Desert Fox
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:50 pm

I really don't think they are (but that might be a bit biased from c/o 13 being the best oci since the crash).

85% of my class either made 100k+ plus, worked in gov, clerkships, or PI at the 9 month mark. Even if you want to discount some of the gov and pi as shitty it is still prob over 80% in actual good outcomes.

im sure all the t14 are pretty similar with HYS leaning towartds 90%+

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I really don't think they are (but that might be a bit biased from c/o 13 being the best oci since the crash).

85% of my class either made 100k+ plus, worked in gov, clerkships, or PI at the 9 month mark. Even if you want to discount some of the gov and pi as shitty it is still prob over 80% in actual good outcomes.

im sure all the t14 are pretty similar with HYS leaning towartds 90%+

Who are you and what'd you do with DF? lol that's the most optimistic thing I've ever heard you say. I haven't been tracking post-crash data very much--my class was the last one before the LS application numbers started to drop off--glad to hear things are looking up.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:12 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I really don't think they are (but that might be a bit biased from c/o 13 being the best oci since the crash).

85% of my class either made 100k+ plus, worked in gov, clerkships, or PI at the 9 month mark. Even if you want to discount some of the gov and pi as shitty it is still prob over 80% in actual good outcomes.

im sure all the t14 are pretty similar with HYS leaning towartds 90%+

Who are you and what'd you do with DF? lol that's the most optimistic thing I've ever heard you say. I haven't been tracking post-crash data very much--my class was the last one before the LS application numbers started to drop off--glad to hear things are looking up.


MY problem is that winning the game is still losing. Great you make a decent living but you have tremendous debt and every legal job is worse than getting raped. Enjoy!

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:19 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:Who are you and what'd you do with DF? lol that's the most optimistic thing I've ever heard you say. I haven't been tracking post-crash data very much--my class was the last one before the LS application numbers started to drop off--glad to hear things are looking up.

MY problem is that winning the game is still losing. Great you make a decent living but you have tremendous debt and every legal job is worse than getting raped. Enjoy!

I'm with you there. The answer has to be massive scholarships or rich parents even for the top schools. Out of curiousity, do you think sticker at HYS is a questionable choice given that even the best high-paying legal jobs are so hellish?

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Desert Fox
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:58 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:Who are you and what'd you do with DF? lol that's the most optimistic thing I've ever heard you say. I haven't been tracking post-crash data very much--my class was the last one before the LS application numbers started to drop off--glad to hear things are looking up.

MY problem is that winning the game is still losing. Great you make a decent living but you have tremendous debt and every legal job is worse than getting raped. Enjoy!

I'm with you there. The answer has to be massive scholarships or rich parents even for the top schools. Out of curiousity, do you think sticker at HYS is a questionable choice given that even the best high-paying legal jobs are so hellish?


HYS at sticker is a stupid choice .

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby nordi » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:23 am

You guys are off on your Michigan mean. It's between 3.3 and 3.4 for 1Ls and a lot higher after that.

People go to Cornell to end up at some big firm in New York. People go to Michigan wanting to end up all over the place. That doesn't demonstrate which school makes it easier to get a job in New York (vast majority from both can succeed if that's their goal), but it's got a big impact on the percent of students who end up working for really large law firms.

Cornell offered me more money than Michigan. I picked Michigan. Couldn't be happier. Cornell seemed nice, but Michigan just had a better set up in everything from living arrangements to course offerings to the surroundings. When I visited Cornell, one of admissions folks told me--without knowing that I was considering Michigan--that the hardest part of her job was trying to convince people not to go to Ann Arbor. I saw why when I visited Michigan.




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