BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

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ymmv
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby ymmv » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:38 pm

welcometoscotland wrote:If you are going to law school to go to schulte you need to reevaluate

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snagglepuss
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby snagglepuss » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:47 pm

welcometoscotland wrote:If you are going to law school to go to schulte you need to reevaluate

(unaware that Schulte RUNS the FUNDS game)

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cron1834
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby cron1834 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:53 pm

runinthefront wrote:I know--many people from UM are not targeting NYC, but they're still not ending up with comparable regional jobs. You made it sound like they're shunning mediocre biglaw gigs for cushy midlaw gigs

Where are you getting this from? I did no such thing.
runinthefront wrote:you then tried to say that the fed clerkship placement power was stronger.

Again, I did no such thing. I haven't typed a word about clerkships ITT. You're obviously confusing me with someone else, and being a douche about it to boot.
runinthefront wrote:then you tried to claim that they just self-selected into more PI gigs

This is straightforwardly true even by the numbers you posted. Wtf is your deal?

runinthefront wrote:UM is on the decline man im sorry you chose wrong

You are a serious prick.

Actually, I take that back. I wouldn't want you to get angry and try to out me, like you did to the dude in the Dr.Snow thread. So consider my comments withdrawn.

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:56 pm

cron1834 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:I know--many people from UM are not targeting NYC, but they're still not ending up with comparable regional jobs. You made it sound like they're shunning mediocre biglaw gigs for cushy midlaw gigs

Where are you getting this from? I did no such thing.

You are a serious prick.

Actually, I take that back. I wouldn't want you to get angry and try to out me, like you did to the dude in the Dr.Snow thread. So consider my comments withdrawn.


cron1834 wrote:I'm going to assume BZ is trolling here.

If everyone at Mich exclusively targeted mediocre NYC offices like a lot of Cornell folks do, they'd have improved BL numbers. Duh. Some of the GPAs that got Mich people NYC jobs the last few years are quite shitty; the NYC placement power is good. But, only a minority of the class targets this way.



If your final post on this matter consists of name-calling and trying to disparage me, that's fine, as long as you concede that UM's lack of pursuing BL in Manhattan isn't the sole reason for their lackluster placement numbers.

if telling the truth equates to 'throwing a fit' and being a 'prick', then so be it.
Last edited by runinthefront on Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cron1834
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby cron1834 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:10 am

Bro you obviously confused me with other ppl in this thread multiple times, and generally posted like a dick. Not for the first time on TLS, either. If you want to pat yourself on the back for that and call yourself a truthteller, then go ahead. I'm done with you.

Nomo
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Nomo » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:27 am

runinthefront wrote:it would be 1 thing if UM kids were shunning jobs at Duane Morris or Schulte (i dont actually know what a mediocre job is so im picking random lower ranked V100...and i dont know any Cornell grads ending up there) for a nice midlaw job in Illinois but according to what UM is reporting to the ABA

that's not happening.

What's happening is UM kids having a hard time in NYC and outside of NYC


The problem is that its harder to get "a nice midlaw job in Illinois" than it is to get Latham. There just aren't enough nice midlaw jobs. Midlaw firms rarely take more than 5 or 6 SA's and they almost never have 100% offer rates. The other problem is that even if Michigan is national, its still not as good as Berkeley or Stanford in California. Its not as good as Chicago or Northwestern in Chicago.

In that sense, Michigan kids aren't shunning anything for a midlaw firm. You don't really get that option. OCI comes once, and you place your bids where you place them. Michigan kids are screwing up their bids. And in my experience, Career Services isn't stopping them, because they're living in 2005. But even if they weren't screwing up their bids, Michigan has no "home market" and that's a major disadvantage. If you want to run a national law school in a flyover state you've got to get class size way down. Even with the class size cuts Michigan still has a hundred more students than Duke. That's a problem.

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banjo
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby banjo » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:30 am

Nomo wrote:In that sense, Michigan kids aren't shunning anything for a midlaw firm. You don't really get that option. OCI comes once, and you place your bids where you place them. Michigan kids are screwing up their bids. And in my experience, Career Services isn't stopping them, because they're living in 2005. But even if they weren't screwing up their bids, Michigan has no "home market" and that's a major disadvantage. If you want to run a national law school in a flyover state you've got to get class size way down. Even with the class size cuts Michigan still has a hundred more students than Duke. That's a problem.


This sounds like the most plausible explanation.

I also think Cornell is doing a few things right. For example, they hold their OCI at the Doubletree Hotel in NYC, where both CLS and NYU hold their interview weeks (often back to back). This is super convenient for employers, many of whom are based in NYC or will already be in town for CLS/NYU. It also nudges a few undecided Cornell students towards NYC and solidifies the school's ties to the NYC market. Stuff like this matters at the margins.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:13 am

How come UVA doesn't struggle as much as Michigan? Better CSO/less dumb students failing the school?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:28 am

runinthefront wrote:Dude I took school funded jobs out of almost all of my statistics

Well you didn't when you said that the government/PI placement numbers were effectively equal. Cornell placed 20 people into government/PI and 16 people were in school funded jobs. Odds the 16 came out of those 20? About 99%. Michigan put 49 students into those jobs, with just three school funded.

One thing Cornell does have going for it is that like 8% of students from the top of the class transfer up.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby NYCFAN1 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:30 am

BigZuck wrote:How come UVA doesn't struggle as much as Michigan? Better CSO/less dumb students failing the school?


Are you running some weird schtick to try to convince people that Texas is better than Michigan? You don't go to any of the t14 schools, and you aren't a prospective student trying to decide between t14 schools. Why are you shilling?

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:36 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
runinthefront wrote:Dude I took school funded jobs out of almost all of my statistics

Well you didn't when you said that the government/PI placement numbers were effectively equal. Cornell placed 20 people into government/PI and 16 people were in school funded jobs. Odds the 16 came out of those 20? About 99%. Michigan put 49 students into those jobs, with just three school funded.

One thing Cornell does have going for it is that like 8% of students from the top of the class transfer up.


Tiago, I guess what I mean is that if you (rightfully) assume that 99% of the school-funded jobs are PI and subtract that out of Cornell's PI score, you would then have to give back the 16 BL/FC jobs I substracted, making the the gulf in biglaw/midlaw employment between UM and Cornell even more stark. So you simply can't use UM kids self-selecting into PI roles as an explanation for difference in overall BL/FC employment.

Also, I think you're 100% about the transferring. With such a small class, around half of the kids in the top 15% of the class are transferring. That, in conjunction with holding OCI in early August and in NYC most definitely plays a role.

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:44 am

What the hell happened to this thread?

First, <edited to reflect that Cornell appears to have passed Michigan in fedclerk placement in 2013 for the first time in my memory>

Second, why are you all foaming at the mouth about overall employment numbers? NEWS FLASH: Cornell has better overall employment numbers (to my knowledge), because it places great in NYC, which is the biggest/easiest legal market! But as jbagelboy and I pointed out, its placement power is weak outside of NYC, so if you don't want to work in NYC, you're better served going to Michigan. Given that I reviewed Cornell's GPA cutoff information alongside Michigan's, I'm not gonna argue about facts Hannity-style with the trolls in here. /thread.
Last edited by bruinfan10 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:45 am

I've got it as 57% BL/FC for Cornell and 68% for Cornell. PI/Gov self-selection closes most of that gap if we assume that it really is self selection. Maybe I missed something.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:48 am

bruinfan10 wrote:What the hell happened to this thread?

First of all, I've never heard Cornell has even close to Michigan's clerkship placement. Here are the numbers: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/04/which-la ... lacements/. I've done some clerkship hiring myself, which I doubt the megatrolls in here will ever be able to say, and I can anecdotally confirm the hard data as well.

If you're gonna go into full douche mode don't post a single year showing Michigan had better clerkship placement and then say "CASE CLOSED!!!1!"

Cornell had better fed clerkship placement for 2013. That's what people are referring to.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:53 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:What the hell happened to this thread?

First of all, I've never heard Cornell has even close to Michigan's clerkship placement. Here are the numbers: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/04/which-la ... lacements/. I've done some clerkship hiring myself, which I doubt the megatrolls in here will ever be able to say, and I can anecdotally confirm the hard data as well.

If you're gonna go into full douche mode don't post a single year showing Michigan had better clerkship placement and then say "CASE CLOSED!!!1!"

Cornell had better fed clerkship placement for 2013. That's what people are referring to.

I ran a search before I linked those numbers, and I got this http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/which-la ... lerkships/ -- that later article doesn't even list Cornell so I didn't think the 2014 post was useful here. Where are you getting your 2013 data? I couldn't find it on US News or Above the Law.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:58 am

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... /aba/2013/

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/aba/

In the future I'd go with "every year from 2009-2012 shows Michigan with a clear lead in Fed Clerk placement. 2013 is probably just an outlier."

The reason it came up at all is that a Michigan defender used clerkship placement to explain poorer biglaw placement, but when everyone's just using the 2013 numbers that's a hollow argument.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:04 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cornell/aba/2013/

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/aba/

In the future I'd go with "every year from 2009-2012 shows Michigan with a clear lead in Fed Clerk placement. 2013 is probably just an outlier."

The reason it came up at all is that a Michigan defender used clerkship placement to explain poorer biglaw placement, but when everyone's just using the 2013 numbers that's a hollow argument.

Holy cow, good for Cornell; that's an insane switch-up if that info is accurate. And yeah I agree with you, the idea that UM's fed clerkship placement is what makes Cornell's overall hiring numbers better than Michigan's is ludicrous. I don't even give creedence to the self-selection thing; Michigan isn't NYU or Yale on that front.

But the fact remains that Michigan places better OUTSIDE NYC than does Cornell; that doesn't mean Cornell doesn't have better biglaw placement--it does, since NYC is the biggest market with the lowest GPA cutoffs--so for OP's purposes, the answer is (a) retake so you're not attending either school at sticker, and (b) go to Cornell if you want NYC, Michigan if you want anywhere else. Like I said, jbagelboy dropped that correct answer on page 1, and this mouthbreathing trolling has gotten out of control since then.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:25 pm

NYCFAN1 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:How come UVA doesn't struggle as much as Michigan? Better CSO/less dumb students failing the school?


Are you running some weird schtick to try to convince people that Texas is better than Michigan? You don't go to any of the t14 schools, and you aren't a prospective student trying to decide between t14 schools. Why are you shilling?


I don't actually know what an ad hom is but I suspect this might be one of those

What did I say ITT about UT? And what, specifically, from my entire posting history suggests I would be a UT shill?

I was a prospective student trying to decide between T14 schools so I do have a little familiarity with this whole process

Eta: What an egregiously disgusting attempt to take the focus off of butthurt Michigan fanboys. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Last edited by BigZuck on Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rigo
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Rigo » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:29 pm

What's with the multiple people ITT making stuff up just to be confrontational?

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:30 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:Like I said, jbagelboy dropped that correct answer on page 1, and this mouthbreathing trolling has gotten out of control since then.


couldn't agree more.

TLS at its best (read: worst).

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:44 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:Like I said, jbagelboy dropped that correct answer on page 1, and this mouthbreathing trolling has gotten out of control since then.


couldn't agree more.

TLS at its best (read: worst).


I should probably apologize to the thread for taking a shot at the low hanging fruit that are Michigan apologists. I saw one post and I couldn't help myself. I blame the Superbowl for all my posts ITT

Sorry guys

Hopefully the CSO/dumb students won't fail the school again this year when the employment stats come out.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:45 pm

BigZuck wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:Like I said, jbagelboy dropped that correct answer on page 1, and this mouthbreathing trolling has gotten out of control since then.


couldn't agree more.

TLS at its best (read: worst).


I should probably apologize to the thread for taking a shot at the low hanging fruit that are Michigan apologists. I saw one post and I couldn't help myself. I blame the Superbowl for all my posts ITT

Sorry guys

Hopefully the CSO/dumb students won't fail the school again this year when the employment stats come out.


you weren't really the problem bro.

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:56 pm

jbagelboy wrote:you weren't really the problem bro.


I dunno man:

BigZuck wrote:This has been the refrain from Michigan apologists for years now.

And yet here we are. School is still a festering TTT and should be shut down.


At least on this site, they are just so willing to engage in mental gymnastics to explain things away and portray the school as this magical exception to the T14. It's nuts.

They* also lack any sense of self-awareness or self-deprecation, it's just hard for me to hold back sometimes. Still, I shouldn't have done that, they can't help themselves.

*cron seems like a cool dude though

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Rigo
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Rigo » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:59 pm

Zuck, just stop pushing UT on us. Your weird shtick needs to end.

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:12 pm

Dirigo wrote:Zuck, just stop pushing UT on us. Your weird shtick needs to end.


You're right, you're right

(quietly slinks out of thread)

I will say this: In my opinion, unless you don't care about the risk of striking out, people looking for big law shouldn't go to a T14 without having their eye on NYC (doesn't have to be their top choice, but definitely need to be open to it). For me, that means Cornell is the choice 9/10, unless Michigan is significantly cheaper (which I guess could happen, but is pretty unlikely). Michigan only makes sense to me if you're looking primarily at the midwest with NYC as a distant backup (although I'd lean Chicago/NU if Chicago is the goal). If you want, say, CA big law then A) You had better be open to NYC and B) Go to Berkeley. Don't even bother with Michigan/Cornell unless one of those is a no brainer because of cost.

Michigan is obviously a good school but just looking at the job placement and cost, to me it's becoming like GULC in that it's rarely an individual's best choice.

Eta: /rehashing points other people posted on page one




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