BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

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welcometoscotland
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby welcometoscotland » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:46 pm

Whether OP is pretty/handsome or not will affect nyc biglaw more than mich v. Cornell. Get to gym and take care of skin

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:47 pm

jrthor10 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
HP5450 wrote:Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.

As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.


This has been the refrain from Michigan apologists for years now.

And yet here we are. School is still a festering TTT and should be shut down.


Lol wut? This is absurd. I won't repeat a lot of the correct information that has been posted here on both sides of the equation but I would add a few thoughts:

1. Overall employment #s at Michigan have been lower than its peers partially because we weren't doing the paid fellowship crap that most of the rest of the T14 was practicing. In an effort to keep up with the Jones' the Dean implemented this recently, but it won't be reflected until next year's rankings. (Note: I am not addressing biglaw employment #s, only overall numbers. Obviously this practice doesn't impact biglaw/fed clerkship #s)

2. I think the advice that Cornell is TCR for NY biglaw and Michigan everything else is probably correct. Michigan has pretty nationwide reach and while the biggest proportion of biglaw folks still go to NYC when they graduate, I think Michigan is much more nat'l than Cornell. Also, FWIW most older people in the profession, especially judges, still consider Michigan to be a better school than it is ranked today. That's why are clerkship #s are arguably better than similarly ranked schools.


/Michgan apologist

I bet you also think Dean Z is the coolest aunt of all the cool aunt adcoms

In all seriousness, at what point can we all start to consider that maybe, just maybe, Michigan has fallen behind?

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:48 pm

welcometoscotland wrote:Whether OP is pretty/handsome or not will affect nyc biglaw more than mich v. Cornell. Get to gym and take care of skin


This is probably the best post ITT (no troll)

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:49 pm

jrthor10 wrote:1. Overall employment #s at Michigan have been lower than its peers partially because we weren't doing the paid fellowship crap that most of the rest of the T14 was practicing. In an effort to keep up with the Jones' the Dean implemented this recently, but it won't be reflected until next year's rankings. (Note: I am not addressing biglaw employment #s, only overall numbers. Obviously this practice doesn't impact biglaw/fed clerkship #s)

2. I think the advice that Cornell is TCR for NY biglaw and Michigan everything else is probably correct. Michigan has pretty nationwide reach and while the biggest proportion of biglaw folks still go to NYC when they graduate, I think Michigan is much more nat'l than Cornell. Also, FWIW most older people in the profession, especially judges, still consider Michigan to be a better school than it is ranked today. That's why are clerkship #s are arguably better than similarly ranked schools.


1. Cornell's data is definitely inflated with 16 school funded positions, compared to UM's 3. This does skew the results in a significant way, considering UM has a much larger class size than Cornell. When you subtract the school-funded positions from both schools, in terms of raw, LT/FT JD employment numbers, it still leaves UM's 2013 percentages at 81.2% vs. 81.3% at Cornell--virtually identical. This is odd because, based on 'rankings' alone, UM is generally not considered a peer of Cornell.

2. Your clerkship data is off too. Even if we compare the 2013 clerkship rate, it was 11% at Cornell vs. 8% at UM. I don't really get the national reach argument either, since there's really no way to tell. It's true--most people at Cornell self-select into the NYC big law scene.

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:52 pm

I feel like this is starting to turn into a "shit on UM" thread which is dumb since UM is a fine institution, no doubt. I do think that the only thing keeping it afloat within the T10 of US News Rankings is its peer reputation from being a top 5 law school in the past.

welcometoscotland
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby welcometoscotland » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:56 pm

Cornell and michigan are peers. Do you want to be in ithaca with a bunch of people who wanted to claim they went to an ivy or go to football games and the same ten bars in ann arbor

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby jrthor10 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:03 pm

welcometoscotland wrote:Cornell and michigan are peers. Do you want to be in ithaca with a bunch of people who wanted to claim they went to an ivy or go to football games and the same ten bars in ann arbor



HARBAUGH

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cron1834
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby cron1834 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:27 pm

I'm going to assume BZ is trolling here.

If everyone at Mich exclusively targeted mediocre NYC offices like a lot of Cornell folks do, they'd have improved BL numbers. Duh. Some of the GPAs that got Mich people NYC jobs the last few years are quite shitty; the NYC placement power is good. But, only a minority of the class targets this way.

At equal cost, Mich. If Cornell is cheaper and all you want is NYC, then Cornell is a no-brainer.

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:41 pm

cron1834 wrote:I'm going to assume BZ is trolling here.

If everyone at Mich exclusively targeted mediocre NYC offices like a lot of Cornell folks do, they'd have improved BL numbers. Duh. Some of the GPAs that got Mich people NYC jobs the last few years are quite shitty; the NYC placement power is good. But, only a minority of the class targets this way.

At equal cost, Mich. If Cornell is cheaper and all you want is NYC, then Cornell is a no-brainer.


...I mean Cornell beats UM in mid-law/ fed. clerkship placement too. I don't understand--if UM students have better options than "mediocre NYC offices," then where are they going?

Even if we go back to 2012, the percentage of students from UM getting a firm job with 50+ lawyers (accounting for the "non-mediocre" midlaw/biglaw jobs UM students are getting over Cornell grads lol) plus fed. clerkships, minus school-funded gigs, you still get 52.3% UM v. 64.2% at Cornell. That's a huge difference that can't be explained away with conjecture.

The numbers don't lie, no matter what excuses you make for UM's placement. I think it's clearly evident that UM is on a decline. How can anyone dispute that?
If you take out peer reputation (which is a useless metric, considering it hasn't led to an increase in jobs for UM students), do you really think UM stays in the top ten of USN Rankings?

-

and last year's UMich OCI thread sure doesn't help your argument.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=231027&start=950
Last edited by runinthefront on Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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ymmv
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby ymmv » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:43 pm

BUT AT LEAST WE DON'T GO TO GULC AMIRITE?

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:58 pm

cron1834 wrote:I'm going to assume BZ is trolling here.

If everyone at Mich exclusively targeted mediocre NYC offices like a lot of Cornell folks do, they'd have improved BL numbers. Duh. Some of the GPAs that got Mich people NYC jobs the last few years are quite shitty; the NYC placement power is good. But, only a minority of the class targets this way.

At equal cost, Mich. If Cornell is cheaper and all you want is NYC, then Cornell is a no-brainer.


Real talk: I'm dead serious about in all seriousness. The lengths Michigan apologists will go to is insane.

I refuse to believe that Michigan is this magical exception to the rest of the T14 where the students consistently fail the school year after year. I mean, why should we believe Michigan is different than, say, UVA?

Of course I don't actually think its a TTT or that there are never reasons to pick it over Cornell

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cron1834
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby cron1834 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:09 pm

BigZuck wrote:
cron1834 wrote:I'm going to assume BZ is trolling here.

If everyone at Mich exclusively targeted mediocre NYC offices like a lot of Cornell folks do, they'd have improved BL numbers. Duh. Some of the GPAs that got Mich people NYC jobs the last few years are quite shitty; the NYC placement power is good. But, only a minority of the class targets this way.

At equal cost, Mich. If Cornell is cheaper and all you want is NYC, then Cornell is a no-brainer.


Real talk: I'm dead serious about in all seriousness. The lengths Michigan apologists will go to is insane.

I refuse to believe that Michigan is this magical exception to the rest of the T14 where the students consistently fail the school year after year. I mean, why should we believe Michigan is different than, say, UVA?

Of course I don't actually think its a TTT or that there are never reasons to pick it over Cornell


I don't think Mich is different than UVA. Or Berkeley. Those 3 have a lot in common, actually - they each have lots more people targeting PI than Cornell and lots more people targeting non-NYC locations than Cornell (like, a clear majority in the case of Berk and Mich - I'm not as clued in to UVA). It's pretty clear that MVB is a peer-set. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? They all have good placement power and they all have lots of students that don't bid NYC.

Also, this:

ymmv wrote:BUT AT LEAST WE DON'T GO TO GULC AMIRITE?

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ymmv
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby ymmv » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:14 pm

cron1834 wrote:I don't think Mich is different than UVA. Or Berkeley.


Ok now who's trolling.

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:17 pm

cron1834 wrote:I don't think Mich is different than UVA. Or Berkeley. Those 3 have a lot in common, actually - they each have lots more people targeting PI than Cornell and lots more people targeting non-NYC locations than Cornell (like, a clear majority in the case of Berk and Mich - I'm not as clued in to UVA).


...but this is not true either. Last year's PI + gov employment percentage at UM was 12.2% . Cornell's was 10.8%. How does that 2% difference make up for the 10%+ edge in BL/FC employment that Cornell holds over UM?

Michigan is wayyyyyyyyy closer to Northwestern/Cornell than it is to UVA/Penn/Duke/Berk

and idk it may be a safer bet to choose Cornell/Northwestern (where the markets both schools feed into is strong) over Michigan in most scenarios, given equal cost
Last edited by runinthefront on Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Nomo » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:19 pm

BigZuck wrote:
jrthor10 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
HP5450 wrote:Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.

As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.


This has been the refrain from Michigan apologists for years now.

And yet here we are. School is still a festering TTT and should be shut down.


Lol wut? This is absurd. I won't repeat a lot of the correct information that has been posted here on both sides of the equation but I would add a few thoughts:

1. Overall employment #s at Michigan have been lower than its peers partially because we weren't doing the paid fellowship crap that most of the rest of the T14 was practicing. In an effort to keep up with the Jones' the Dean implemented this recently, but it won't be reflected until next year's rankings. (Note: I am not addressing biglaw employment #s, only overall numbers. Obviously this practice doesn't impact biglaw/fed clerkship #s)

2. I think the advice that Cornell is TCR for NY biglaw and Michigan everything else is probably correct. Michigan has pretty nationwide reach and while the biggest proportion of biglaw folks still go to NYC when they graduate, I think Michigan is much more nat'l than Cornell. Also, FWIW most older people in the profession, especially judges, still consider Michigan to be a better school than it is ranked today. That's why are clerkship #s are arguably better than similarly ranked schools.


/Michgan apologist

I bet you also think Dean Z is the coolest aunt of all the cool aunt adcoms

In all seriousness, at what point can we all start to consider that maybe, just maybe, Michigan has fallen behind?


For the record, while I did attend Michigan - I've never actually had a conversation with Dean Z, and I have no idea if she is cool or not. It always seemed to me like a lot of people at Michigan weren't going hard after NY Biglaw. I'm not sure why that would be more true at Michigan, than say Duke, but it seemed like it was true. That said, I think more Michigan students would have gone harder after NY biglaw if they realized how much harder it is to go for California, Chicago, DC or regional midlaw. Career services seemed to be selling students a pipe dream. I remember talking to career services about bidding strategy. I told them I was really only interested in regional midlaw or maybe DC, but I figured I should play it safe and bid some NY firms given my gpa (roughly top 1/3). They told me mass mail regional midlaw and bid heavily on DC, because they were confident I could get DC. That was stupid advice. I think plenty of other people got equally stupid advice.

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:21 pm

Nomo wrote:It always seemed to me like a lot of people at Michigan weren't going hard after NY Biglaw. I'm not sure why that would be more true at Michigan, than say Duke, but it seemed like it was true. That said, I think more Michigan students would have gone harder after NY biglaw if they realized how much harder it is to go for California, Chicago, DC or regional midlaw. Career services seemed to be selling students a pipe dream. I remember talking to career services about bidding strategy. I told them I was really only interested in regional midlaw or maybe DC, but I figured I should play it safe and bid some NY firms given my gpa (roughly top 1/3). They told me mass mail regional midlaw and bid heavily on DC, because they were confident I could get DC. That was stupid advice. I think plenty of other people got equally stupid advice.


I remember reading UM's OCI thread last year as a 0L and feeling bad/sad. Seems like many had a surprisingly rough time at OCI

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:23 pm

So students fail Michigan

CSO fails Michigan

"The market" fails Michigan (but it's totes getting better, this time 4 realz!)

Michigan does not fail Michigan

Is that a fair assessment?

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby cron1834 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:01 pm

runinthefront wrote:
cron1834 wrote:I don't think Mich is different than UVA. Or Berkeley. Those 3 have a lot in common, actually - they each have lots more people targeting PI than Cornell and lots more people targeting non-NYC locations than Cornell (like, a clear majority in the case of Berk and Mich - I'm not as clued in to UVA).


...but this is not true either. Last year's PI + gov employment percentage at UM was 12.2% . Cornell's was 10.8%. How does that 2% difference make up for the 10%+ edge in BL/FC employment that Cornell holds over UM?

Michigan is wayyyyyyyyy closer to Northwestern/Cornell than it is to UVA/Penn/Duke/Berk

and idk it may be a safer bet to choose Cornell/Northwestern (where the markets both schools feed into is strong) over Michigan in most scenarios, given equal cost


The vast majority of Cornell's LST PI score is school funded. Also, Mich and Berk had nearly identical employment and BL numbers last year. What are you on about?

Again - the large majority of people at Mich are not targeting Manhattan. Full stop. This both hurts the aggregate BL numbers and is a good thing for those that do want NYC, where the placement power is good.

You and BZ seem to be throwing a fit about things other people have said elsewhere rather than anything I'm actually posting ITT.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:05 pm

Dude I took school funded jobs out of almost all of my statistics


Don't be mad at me because UM is slowly falling out of the t14

Blame Detroit.

I haven't thrown a fit once in this thread. You (and others....some would call you all "Michigan apologists") have been making baseless claims to try and explain away UM's deteriorating placement power. I'm simply trying to keep this conversation honest.

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:19 pm

cron1834 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
cron1834 wrote:I don't think Mich is different than UVA. Or Berkeley. Those 3 have a lot in common, actually - they each have lots more people targeting PI than Cornell and lots more people targeting non-NYC locations than Cornell (like, a clear majority in the case of Berk and Mich - I'm not as clued in to UVA).


...but this is not true either. Last year's PI + gov employment percentage at UM was 12.2% . Cornell's was 10.8%. How does that 2% difference make up for the 10%+ edge in BL/FC employment that Cornell holds over UM?

Michigan is wayyyyyyyyy closer to Northwestern/Cornell than it is to UVA/Penn/Duke/Berk

and idk it may be a safer bet to choose Cornell/Northwestern (where the markets both schools feed into is strong) over Michigan in most scenarios, given equal cost


The vast majority of Cornell's LST PI score is school funded. Also, Mich and Berk had nearly identical employment and BL numbers last year. What are you on about?

Again - the large majority of people at Mich are not targeting Manhattan. Full stop. This both hurts the aggregate BL numbers and is a good thing for those that do want NYC, where the placement power is good.

You and BZ seem to be throwing a fit about things other people have said elsewhere rather than anything I'm actually posting ITT.


I'm not throwing a fit

How come the self selection (or students making dumb choices) stuff only applies to Michigan?

I know it wasn't you but any thoughts on why the CSO fails people at Michigan more than any other T14?

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cron1834
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby cron1834 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:28 pm

runinthefront wrote:Dude I took school funded jobs out of almost all of my statistics


Don't be mad at me because UM is slowly falling out of the t14

Blame Detroit.

I haven't thrown a fit once in this thread. You (and others....some would call you all "Michigan apologists") have been making baseless claims to try and explain away UM's deteriorating placement power. I'm simply trying to keep this conversation honest.

I just cannot even with you.

All I'm saying is that a large majority of people at Mich are not targeting NYC. That's neither good nor bad, but it suppresses the BL numbers, and it isn't true of Cornell. Unsure how that's a controversial or baseless claim ...

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:30 pm

I know--many people from UM are not targeting NYC, but they're still not ending up with comparable regional jobs. You made it sound like they're shunning mediocre biglaw gigs for cushy midlaw gigs

you were wrong.

you then tried to say that the fed clerkship placement power was stronger.

you were wrong.

then you tried to claim that they just self-selected into more PI gigs

you were wrong.

Dude, UM's employment outcomes for its students have been below Cornell for at least 3 years now. That's just a fact. Whether we are talking NYC biglaw or a decent midlaw job in general.

UM is on the decline man im sorry you chose wrong

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:33 pm

it would be 1 thing if UM kids were shunning jobs at Duane Morris or Schulte (i dont actually know what a mediocre job is so im picking random lower ranked V100...and i dont know any Cornell grads ending up there) for a nice midlaw job in Illinois but according to what UM is reporting to the ABA

that's not happening.

What's happening is UM kids having a hard time in NYC and outside of NYC
Last edited by runinthefront on Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

welcometoscotland
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby welcometoscotland » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:36 pm

If you are going to law school to go to schulte you need to reevaluate

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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby welcometoscotland » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:38 pm

Merely speaking of QoL




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