BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan? Forum
-
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:08 pm
BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Hi everyone! Been a lurker for a while and I just got admitted into Cornell and Michigan. Haven't got scholarship information so assuming I will pay the sticker. I just want to land a biglaw job after graduation. which one should I pick? Thank you so much for your help!
- Ron Don Volante
- Posts: 899
- Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:26 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Paying sticker for either is a very bad idea.
Retake, change your goals, or be a rich person.
Retake, change your goals, or be a rich person.
-
- Posts: 21482
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:36 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Don't pay sticker.
But if you do, Cornell. Michigan has been slipping for some time, and their NYC biglaw placement can't touch Cornell's.
But if you do, Cornell. Michigan has been slipping for some time, and their NYC biglaw placement can't touch Cornell's.
- jbagelboy
- Posts: 10361
- Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.
-
- Posts: 21482
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:36 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Even given the last couple years' employment figures? A worrying number of Michigan grads seem to be winding up unemployed or underemployed in non-JD jobs. And their biglaw placement was a full 10 percentage points lower than Cornell's in 2013.jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.
I mean, if OP is targeting Detroit biglaw or something (if that is a thing), then sure, Mich might make sense, but for someone who wants to graduate with a job Cornell seems the significantly safer bet. Especially at sticker because DO NOT ATTEND AT STICKER OP. You're most likely looking at above $300,000 debt when all is said and done, and Jesus fucking Christ.
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
- jbagelboy
- Posts: 10361
- Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Michigan OCI cutoffs seem lower nationwide, which I would care about more than LST. Its also a cheaper school at sticker cost. Idk it's toughymmv wrote:Even given the last couple years' employment figures? A worrying number of Michigan grads seem to be winding up unemployed or underemployed in non-JD jobs. And their biglaw placement was a full 10 percentage points lower than Cornell's in 2013.jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.
I mean, if OP is targeting Detroit biglaw or something (if that is a thing), then sure, Mich might make sense, but for someone who wants to graduate with a job Cornell seems the significantly safer bet. Especially at sticker because DO NOT ATTEND AT STICKER OP. You're most likely looking at above $300,000 debt when all is said and done, and Jesus fucking Christ.
- Ron Don Volante
- Posts: 899
- Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:26 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
FWIW if I had a gun pointed to my head I would do the same thing jbagel said, but there is no possible way either is worth > $250K in debt.
-
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:04 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Even though Cornell sticker is higher than Michigan sticker, Cornell is almost always more affordable after scholarships than Michigan. If neither offer you money, I would try to leverage the Michigan acceptance into money at Cornell.
Last edited by redsoxfan1989 on Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 16639
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Sticker (or close to it) at either is insane. Imagine if you strike out.
If biglaw is the number one objective, then I would go with Cornell.
Why are you assuming sticker though? What are your stats?
If biglaw is the number one objective, then I would go with Cornell.
Why are you assuming sticker though? What are your stats?
- cron1834
- Posts: 2299
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
OP, these two schools were my final choices and I spent a lot of time researching; feel free to PM me. I would add that sticker is a no-go for either unless you have a rich family that will back you. It's too early to decide in any event until scholarship info is final.
-
- Posts: 1650
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:42 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Even if you are a rich person don't pay sticker
Unless you're worth is $20 million+ then I guess it doesn't matter
Unless you're worth is $20 million+ then I guess it doesn't matter
Last edited by Hutz_and_Goodman on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 11730
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Where is this cutoff data at? I wanna see!jbagelboy wrote:Michigan OCI cutoffs seem lower nationwide, which I would care about more than LST. Its also a cheaper school at sticker cost. Idk it's toughymmv wrote:Even given the last couple years' employment figures? A worrying number of Michigan grads seem to be winding up unemployed or underemployed in non-JD jobs. And their biglaw placement was a full 10 percentage points lower than Cornell's in 2013.jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.
I mean, if OP is targeting Detroit biglaw or something (if that is a thing), then sure, Mich might make sense, but for someone who wants to graduate with a job Cornell seems the significantly safer bet. Especially at sticker because DO NOT ATTEND AT STICKER OP. You're most likely looking at above $300,000 debt when all is said and done, and Jesus fucking Christ.
-
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:08 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Thank you guys, GREAT comments! I will put more thoughts into it! But can I really use Michigan's acceptance(only) to negotiate scholarship with Cornell? Any thoughts?
Register now!
Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.
It's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:00 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
I share the same thought as the posters above. I would go to Cornell if you're set on NYC. I would go to Michigan if you want Detroit or midwest generally. Don't go @ sticker.
- Ron Don Volante
- Posts: 899
- Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:26 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
if you want more advice here:
In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:
-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT
- bruinfan10
- Posts: 658
- Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:25 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
This is the right call for sure; but definitely don't go to either at sticker.jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.
To my knowledge lots of schools provide confidential sheets listing cutoff data for firms. Maybe you could get someone to go anon and post the info, but that'd be a dick move; they're confidential for a reason. A friend of mine showed me Cornell's (and obviously I still have access to Michigan's) when my brother was deciding on a law school (he went with a T6 ultimately), and the difference between Cornell's and Michigan's cutoffs is pretty stark. That said, Cornell places better in NYC, and that's the biggest market, so see jbagelboy's post above. Michigan beats Cornell everywhere else.BigZuck wrote:Where is this cutoff data at? I wanna see!
Last edited by bruinfan10 on Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 700
- Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:06 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.
Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.
Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.
Get unlimited access to all forums and topics
Register now!
I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 21482
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:36 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
This is all possible, but it's an awful lot of conjecture to be basing admissions decisions off of. On the flip side, who's to say Cornell students couldn't place just as well as UMich students on the national market if they weren't self-selecting into NY?Nomo wrote:Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.
Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.
-
- Posts: 11730
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
I wish my school were almost decentbruinfan10 wrote:This is the right call for sure; but definitely don't go to either at sticker.jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.
To my knowledge almost decent schools provide confidential sheets listing cutoff data for firms. Maybe you could get someone to go anon and post the info, but that'd be a dick move; they're confidential for a reason. A friend of mine showed me Cornell's (and obviously I still have access to Michigan's) when my brother was deciding on a law school (he went with a T6 ultimately), and the difference between Cornell's and Michigan's cutoffs is pretty stark. That said, Cornell places better in NYC, and that's the biggest market, so see jbagelboy's post above. Michigan beats Cornell everywhere else.BigZuck wrote:Where is this cutoff data at? I wanna see!
I've seen one school's, didn't know if there was some aggregated form somewhere to compare schools
- bruinfan10
- Posts: 658
- Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:25 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Haha sorry for the typo, I meant "almost all decent schools" that I know of, i.e. ones that can place into biglaw at least occasionally; below that I don't think schools really need to keep the same data. Totally possible some of the t14s don't do this but I know of 6-7 just through friends that do.BigZuck wrote:I wish my school were almost decent
I've seen one school's, didn't know if there was some aggregated form somewhere to compare schools
-
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:00 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
because their OCI isn't as robust and their GPA cutoffs are higher than Michigan'symmv wrote:This is all possible, but it's an awful lot of conjecture to be basing admissions decisions off of. On the flip side, who's to say Cornell students couldn't place just as well as UMich students on the national market if they weren't self-selecting into NY?Nomo wrote:Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.
Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.
Michigan has more alumni around the country than Cornell, which undoubtedly helps
Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.
Register now, it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:37 pm
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.
As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.
As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.
-
- Posts: 2151
- Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:18 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
I used the 2013 ABA employment reports and found that 58.8% UM students were at firms 50+ attorneys or greater (to account for midlaw) or a federal clerkship, compared to 69.4% Cornell.Nomo wrote:Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.
Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.
I don't know. I'm not sure that the two percentages can be explained away simply by saying that many UM students gun for regional midlaw. I'm also confused about the lower GPA cut-off news; I do know that Cornell's grades are highly inflated (median is like a 3.48 or something ridiculous), but I don't know how anyone would be able to access GPA cut-offs at V20s for both schools and then compare them in terms of ranking (e.g., "it seems like X firm takes top 25% from Cornell but goes as low as top 35% for UM).
Many CSO data sheets are also 3-5 year averages.
Last edited by runinthefront on Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 11730
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
This has been the refrain from Michigan apologists for years now.HP5450 wrote:Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.
As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.
And yet here we are. School is still a festering TTT and should be shut down.
- jrthor10
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:33 am
Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?
Lol wut? This is absurd. I won't repeat a lot of the correct information that has been posted here on both sides of the equation but I would add a few thoughts:BigZuck wrote:This has been the refrain from Michigan apologists for years now.HP5450 wrote:Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.
As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.
And yet here we are. School is still a festering TTT and should be shut down.
1. Overall employment #s at Michigan have been lower than its peers partially because we weren't doing the paid fellowship crap that most of the rest of the T14 was practicing. In an effort to keep up with the Jones' the Dean implemented this recently, but it won't be reflected until next year's rankings. (Note: I am not addressing biglaw employment #s, only overall numbers. Obviously this practice doesn't impact biglaw/fed clerkship #s)
2. I think the advice that Cornell is TCR for NY biglaw and Michigan everything else is probably correct. Michigan has pretty nationwide reach and while the biggest proportion of biglaw folks still go to NYC when they graduate, I think Michigan is much more nat'l than Cornell. Also, FWIW most older people in the profession, especially judges, still consider Michigan to be a better school than it is ranked today. That's why are clerkship #s are arguably better than similarly ranked schools.
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login