BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

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scofield0183
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BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby scofield0183 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:15 am

Hi everyone! Been a lurker for a while and I just got admitted into Cornell and Michigan. Haven't got scholarship information so assuming I will pay the sticker. I just want to land a biglaw job after graduation. which one should I pick? Thank you so much for your help!

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:19 am

Paying sticker for either is a very bad idea.

Retake, change your goals, or be a rich person.

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ymmv
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby ymmv » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:20 am

Don't pay sticker.
But if you do, Cornell. Michigan has been slipping for some time, and their NYC biglaw placement can't touch Cornell's.

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jbagelboy
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:43 am

in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.

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ymmv
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby ymmv » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:53 am

jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.


Even given the last couple years' employment figures? A worrying number of Michigan grads seem to be winding up unemployed or underemployed in non-JD jobs. And their biglaw placement was a full 10 percentage points lower than Cornell's in 2013.

I mean, if OP is targeting Detroit biglaw or something (if that is a thing), then sure, Mich might make sense, but for someone who wants to graduate with a job Cornell seems the significantly safer bet. Especially at sticker because DO NOT ATTEND AT STICKER OP. You're most likely looking at above $300,000 debt when all is said and done, and Jesus fucking Christ.

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jbagelboy
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:20 am

ymmv wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.


Even given the last couple years' employment figures? A worrying number of Michigan grads seem to be winding up unemployed or underemployed in non-JD jobs. And their biglaw placement was a full 10 percentage points lower than Cornell's in 2013.

I mean, if OP is targeting Detroit biglaw or something (if that is a thing), then sure, Mich might make sense, but for someone who wants to graduate with a job Cornell seems the significantly safer bet. Especially at sticker because DO NOT ATTEND AT STICKER OP. You're most likely looking at above $300,000 debt when all is said and done, and Jesus fucking Christ.

Michigan OCI cutoffs seem lower nationwide, which I would care about more than LST. Its also a cheaper school at sticker cost. Idk it's tough

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:41 am

FWIW if I had a gun pointed to my head I would do the same thing jbagel said, but there is no possible way either is worth > $250K in debt.

redsoxfan1989
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby redsoxfan1989 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:02 pm

Even though Cornell sticker is higher than Michigan sticker, Cornell is almost always more affordable after scholarships than Michigan. If neither offer you money, I would try to leverage the Michigan acceptance into money at Cornell.
Last edited by redsoxfan1989 on Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rigo
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Rigo » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:32 pm

Sticker (or close to it) at either is insane. Imagine if you strike out.
If biglaw is the number one objective, then I would go with Cornell.
Why are you assuming sticker though? What are your stats?

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cron1834
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby cron1834 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:43 pm

OP, these two schools were my final choices and I spent a lot of time researching; feel free to PM me. I would add that sticker is a no-go for either unless you have a rich family that will back you. It's too early to decide in any event until scholarship info is final.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:52 pm

Even if you are a rich person don't pay sticker
Unless you're worth is $20 million+ then I guess it doesn't matter
Last edited by Hutz_and_Goodman on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:03 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ymmv wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.


Even given the last couple years' employment figures? A worrying number of Michigan grads seem to be winding up unemployed or underemployed in non-JD jobs. And their biglaw placement was a full 10 percentage points lower than Cornell's in 2013.

I mean, if OP is targeting Detroit biglaw or something (if that is a thing), then sure, Mich might make sense, but for someone who wants to graduate with a job Cornell seems the significantly safer bet. Especially at sticker because DO NOT ATTEND AT STICKER OP. You're most likely looking at above $300,000 debt when all is said and done, and Jesus fucking Christ.

Michigan OCI cutoffs seem lower nationwide, which I would care about more than LST. Its also a cheaper school at sticker cost. Idk it's tough


Where is this cutoff data at? I wanna see!

scofield0183
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby scofield0183 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:25 pm

Thank you guys, GREAT comments! I will put more thoughts into it! But can I really use Michigan's acceptance(only) to negotiate scholarship with Cornell? Any thoughts?

mvp99
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby mvp99 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:44 pm

I share the same thought as the posters above. I would go to Cornell if you're set on NYC. I would go to Michigan if you want Detroit or midwest generally. Don't go @ sticker.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:03 am

if you want more advice here:

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:14 pm

jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.

This is the right call for sure; but definitely don't go to either at sticker.

BigZuck wrote:Where is this cutoff data at? I wanna see!

To my knowledge lots of schools provide confidential sheets listing cutoff data for firms. Maybe you could get someone to go anon and post the info, but that'd be a dick move; they're confidential for a reason. A friend of mine showed me Cornell's (and obviously I still have access to Michigan's) when my brother was deciding on a law school (he went with a T6 ultimately), and the difference between Cornell's and Michigan's cutoffs is pretty stark. That said, Cornell places better in NYC, and that's the biggest market, so see jbagelboy's post above. Michigan beats Cornell everywhere else.
Last edited by bruinfan10 on Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nomo
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby Nomo » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:31 pm

Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.

Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.

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ymmv
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby ymmv » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:34 pm

Nomo wrote:Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.

Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.


This is all possible, but it's an awful lot of conjecture to be basing admissions decisions off of. On the flip side, who's to say Cornell students couldn't place just as well as UMich students on the national market if they weren't self-selecting into NY?

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:39 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:in a vacuum this is actually a really tough choice. There's no obvious answer, it might come down to intangibles. Career wise, if I wanted to stay in New York I'd probably go to Cornell, and Michigan otherwise.

This is the right call for sure; but definitely don't go to either at sticker.

BigZuck wrote:Where is this cutoff data at? I wanna see!

To my knowledge almost decent schools provide confidential sheets listing cutoff data for firms. Maybe you could get someone to go anon and post the info, but that'd be a dick move; they're confidential for a reason. A friend of mine showed me Cornell's (and obviously I still have access to Michigan's) when my brother was deciding on a law school (he went with a T6 ultimately), and the difference between Cornell's and Michigan's cutoffs is pretty stark. That said, Cornell places better in NYC, and that's the biggest market, so see jbagelboy's post above. Michigan beats Cornell everywhere else.


I wish my school were almost decent :(

I've seen one school's, didn't know if there was some aggregated form somewhere to compare schools

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bruinfan10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby bruinfan10 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:50 pm

BigZuck wrote:I wish my school were almost decent :(

I've seen one school's, didn't know if there was some aggregated form somewhere to compare schools

Haha sorry for the typo, I meant "almost all decent schools" that I know of, i.e. ones that can place into biglaw at least occasionally; below that I don't think schools really need to keep the same data. Totally possible some of the t14s don't do this but I know of 6-7 just through friends that do.

NYCFAN1
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby NYCFAN1 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:17 pm

ymmv wrote:
Nomo wrote:Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.

Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.


This is all possible, but it's an awful lot of conjecture to be basing admissions decisions off of. On the flip side, who's to say Cornell students couldn't place just as well as UMich students on the national market if they weren't self-selecting into NY?


because their OCI isn't as robust and their GPA cutoffs are higher than Michigan's

Michigan has more alumni around the country than Cornell, which undoubtedly helps

HP5450
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby HP5450 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:35 pm

Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.

As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.

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runinthefront
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:11 pm

Nomo wrote:Its possible that the only reason Cornell places more people into NY biglaw is that everyone at Cornell is shooting for NY biglaw. If Michigan students were going for NY biglaw at the same rate as Cornell students, they might do better. The only way to know would be to get the GPA information listed above and compare it to each schools curve.

Michigan's biglaw placement is obviously lower. But you do have a lot of people getting into harder markets than New York. And I suspect that the type of person who chooses Michigan might also be the kind of person who burns energy going after regional midlaw firms that only take a couple associates.


I used the 2013 ABA employment reports and found that 58.8% UM students were at firms 50+ attorneys or greater (to account for midlaw) or a federal clerkship, compared to 69.4% Cornell.

I don't know. I'm not sure that the two percentages can be explained away simply by saying that many UM students gun for regional midlaw. I'm also confused about the lower GPA cut-off news; I do know that Cornell's grades are highly inflated (median is like a 3.48 or something ridiculous), but I don't know how anyone would be able to access GPA cut-offs at V20s for both schools and then compare them in terms of ranking (e.g., "it seems like X firm takes top 25% from Cornell but goes as low as top 35% for UM).

Many CSO data sheets are also 3-5 year averages.

BigZuck
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:30 pm

HP5450 wrote:Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.

As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.


This has been the refrain from Michigan apologists for years now.

And yet here we are. School is still a festering TTT and should be shut down.

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jrthor10
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Re: BIglaw, Cornell or Michigan?

Postby jrthor10 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:36 pm

BigZuck wrote:
HP5450 wrote:Two years ago, a ton of Michigan students were missing out on BigLaw. It's gotten a ton better. A portion of it was the economy, but a lot of it was the school fixing its archaic grade curve for the class of 2016 and cutting it's class size by nearly 25 percent. The employment numbers reflecting the improvement in at OCI won't be available until 2017, but as of 2014 it was clear that the portion of 2Ls landing at elite firms was way up at Michigan.

As for the "cutoff" data. There's a requirement when you access it that you not share it. There were lots of students in the neighborhood of the new median GPA receiving offers from V20 firms at OCI last summer, and some around medians got offers from V10 firms. That was not the case in 2013.


This has been the refrain from Michigan apologists for years now.

And yet here we are. School is still a festering TTT and should be shut down.


Lol wut? This is absurd. I won't repeat a lot of the correct information that has been posted here on both sides of the equation but I would add a few thoughts:

1. Overall employment #s at Michigan have been lower than its peers partially because we weren't doing the paid fellowship crap that most of the rest of the T14 was practicing. In an effort to keep up with the Jones' the Dean implemented this recently, but it won't be reflected until next year's rankings. (Note: I am not addressing biglaw employment #s, only overall numbers. Obviously this practice doesn't impact biglaw/fed clerkship #s)

2. I think the advice that Cornell is TCR for NY biglaw and Michigan everything else is probably correct. Michigan has pretty nationwide reach and while the biggest proportion of biglaw folks still go to NYC when they graduate, I think Michigan is much more nat'l than Cornell. Also, FWIW most older people in the profession, especially judges, still consider Michigan to be a better school than it is ranked today. That's why are clerkship #s are arguably better than similarly ranked schools.




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