William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

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BigZuck
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:25 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
jever020 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
jever020 wrote:I'm not sure, I've just heard w&l employment is less than stellar.

Business law in virginia is the goal

~$110,000 debt william and Mary
~$50,000 debt washington and lee


What do you mean by business law?



I use that term broadly. Real estate, securities, m&a, startups, business consultation, contracts, corporate, bankruptcy, etc.

Anything in there. Not sure exactly what, as I've yet to have any experience (that's what law school electives, internships are for I reckon)

Those parts of the law that deal with business and not government or crime.


I mean why not just start with the first answer being what I had to get BigZuck to say. If you want to do contracts or real esstate work, go to W&L for free for a small firm and make $60k at graduation maybe. If you want biglaw M&A, retake. Everyone just assumed OP wanted biglaw and then said retake. Not one person mentioned that small law firms did real estate and contract work. That's terrible advice because it's not complete. You may not like my advice, but I present posters with an honest view and honest advice of what is out there and let them make their own decisions. Nothing I said is wrong or could even be viewed as deceitful.
As I said in my post, and which has been confirmed, there are lots of small firm jobs doing contracts and real estate that really aren't hard to get. To expand upon that further for OP, Business consulting doesn't exist in law really so cross that out. Corporate, startups, and bankruptcy exist for plenty of small businesses in small law. But if you want to learn these at a high level with big dollars at stake, biglaw does that. M&A and securities are pretty much biglaw only besides a couple of small boutiques that are unicorn jobs.
You're in law school BigZuck and Brut. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and when you guys opine about what jobs exist in the real legal world, it's disastrous without even anecdotal evidence of support.


"You got me to say?" You're incapable of basic reading comprehension or following one line of thought. All I did was start out asking what the OP wanted to do, and pressed the OP to be specific. I really don't think you're all there and, honestly, it seems like you might be a bit on the mentally ill side. This isn't good dude.

Also, you're right that I'm in law school. But, again, I'm struggling to understand what I said that is wrong. I've worked in small firms, I've done/am doing the job search in law school, I've talked to a lot of attorneys. How, specifically, am I not qualified to give very general advice on what the legal market looks like and what, specifically, have I said here (or elsewhere) that's wrong? I genuinely don't want to give bad advice so if I'm doing something wrong then by all means let's correct it.

03152016
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:37 pm

well i for one am convinced by johann's ad homs
it definitely doesn't look like a desperate attempt to save face after making a stupid argument

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JohannDeMann
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:53 pm

Brut wrote:
jever020 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
jever020 wrote:I'm not sure, I've just heard w&l employment is less than stellar.

Business law in virginia is the goal

~$110,000 debt william and Mary
~$50,000 debt washington and lee


What do you mean by business law?



I use that term broadly. Real estate, securities, m&a, startups, business consultation, contracts, corporate, bankruptcy, etc.

Anything in there. Not sure exactly what, as I've yet to have any experience (that's what law school electives, internships are for I reckon)

Those parts of the law that deal with business and not government or crime.

firms with a serious transactional practice are out of reach for most students at w&m and w&l. you need to rethink your goals


This is what I took issue with because it's blatantly false. Sorry BigZuck. Also, everyone saying OP wants biglaw after he literally said he didn't want biglaw and talking about how W&L won't get him biglaw I took issue with. my friends in small law are way happier than the ones in biglaw (though most aren't as happy as the lawyers I know who quit law). Not sure why this forum wants eveyrone to pursue biglaw.

03152016
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:00 pm

name three shitlaw firms that have serious m&a or securities practices

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Rigo
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:01 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:Also, everyone saying OP wants biglaw after he literally said he didn't want biglaw and talking about how W&L won't get him biglaw I took issue with. my friends in small law are way happier than the ones in biglaw (though most aren't as happy as the lawyers I know who quit law). Not sure why this forum wants eveyrone to pursue biglaw.

OP: I don't want a lemon, but I want a fruit that is yellow and sour.
Us: It sounds like you want a lemon, so let's inform you about the realistic chances of you getting a lemon so you can possibly reevaluate either your goals or your means of getting the lemon.

timbs4339
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:03 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
This is what I took issue with because it's blatantly false. Sorry BigZuck. Also, everyone saying OP wants biglaw after he literally said he didn't want biglaw and talking about how W&L won't get him biglaw I took issue with. my friends in small law are way happier than the ones in biglaw (though most aren't as happy as the lawyers I know who quit law). Not sure why this forum wants eveyrone to pursue biglaw.


Except that isnt what anyone in this thread actually said. OP just wants something that there's not really a lot of unless you first get biglaw experience. In fact I'd wager that W+M and W+L have better biglaw placement than midlaw placement.

EDIT: I'm not sure what you want us to do. OP clearly wants biglaw-lite. Should we say this is a good choice knowing that in three years the choice will likely be (if OP is one of the 55% to actually get a full time job) a choice between being an entry-level public defender and a small firm lawyer doing med mal, because you think that would be better for OP's happiness? Doesn't that seem paternalistic?
Last edited by timbs4339 on Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MistakenGenius
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Post removed.

Postby MistakenGenius » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:07 pm

Post removed.
Last edited by MistakenGenius on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rigo
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:15 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:The first part of that is completely wrong Dirigo. William and Mary is the most notorious gamer of the employment rankings. If you account for the fact that they put almost a fourth of their graduates in temporary school-funded jobs (none of which are ideal outcomes), then the employment scores are virtually identical in their shittiness.

Previously discussed. I was just stating a fact. My apologies for not noting the nuances of what types of employment falls in the employment score.
If OP can get more money from W&M and get the costs about the same, I still think that's the way to go (barring retake) because of the 5+% difference in biglaw ("business law") placement. If nothing else changes, OP should save $60k and go with W&L.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:22 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
This is what I took issue with because it's blatantly false. Sorry BigZuck. Also, everyone saying OP wants biglaw after he literally said he didn't want biglaw and talking about how W&L won't get him biglaw I took issue with. my friends in small law are way happier than the ones in biglaw (though most aren't as happy as the lawyers I know who quit law). Not sure why this forum wants eveyrone to pursue biglaw.


Except that isnt what anyone in this thread actually said. OP just wants something that there's not really a lot of unless you first get biglaw experience. In fact I'd wager that W+M and W+L have better biglaw placement than midlaw placement.

EDIT: I'm not sure what you want us to do. OP clearly wants biglaw-lite. Should we say this is a good choice knowing that in three years the choice will likely be (if OP is one of the 55% to actually get a full time job) a choice between being an entry-level public defender and a small firm lawyer doing med mal, because you think that would be better for OP's happiness? Doesn't that seem paternalistic?


OP said he would be happy in any of the practices. Not just M&A and securities. There are plenty of real estate small law firms. There are plenty of small law firms that do business law for small local businesses. Drafting contracts etc. These jobs aren't biglaw lite. I don't have time going back and forth, but OP my previous posts stand. I graduated 3 years ago and am in tune with the legal jobs market, especially the small firm jobs market as 95% of my friends are in these jobs. If you want to do something that is more transactional based and are good in real estate and contracts, I'd go with the free legal education.

BigZuck
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:49 pm

So I don't know what I'm talking about because of something Brut posted that you didn't like? Got it.

Look Johann, you're either aggressively stupid or maliciously trolling. Neither of those things are good. I'm asking nicely (and it's the last time I'll ask because I don't want to keep derailing this either): Please stop posting in the on topics.

Ok, OP: if you really don't mind the more modest, probably lower paying legal work you mentioned (and of course maybe some day you'll rake in some bucks, but it'll likely take a while to get there if you ever do) then just go to whichever is cheaper. Maybe lean a little more towards whichever one is closer to the part of VA you want to live and work but honestly, I would just roll with the cheaper one myself unless cost is really close.

timbs4339
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:57 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:OP said he would be happy in any of the practices. Not just M&A and securities. There are plenty of real estate small law firms. There are plenty of small law firms that do business law for small local businesses. Drafting contracts etc. These jobs aren't biglaw lite. I don't have time going back and forth, but OP my previous posts stand. I graduated 3 years ago and am in tune with the legal jobs market, especially the small firm jobs market as 95% of my friends are in these jobs. If you want to do something that is more transactional based and are good in real estate and contracts, I'd go with the free legal education.


Let's use a different example.

"Hi! I'd like to do defense litigation! Really interested in securities, M+A, real estate, antitrust, contracts, and white collar! Don't know much about those practice areas yet!"

Isn't it obvious that person doesn't envision themselves litigating landlord-tenant case or disputes over parking lot easements? Or shouldn't we at least try to get more specificity rather than assume that the person would be happy as an associate in a five person shop in a rural Virginia area doing that kind of work?

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storpappa
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby storpappa » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:08 pm

As someone watching this discussion, if you are going to put down $200k and three years of your life, I appreciate the frank and some times butt hurt causing answers I see on these threads.

That is really all I can contribute of value to the discussion, so please do continue, because it is helpful to some of us, myself included

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JohannDeMann
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:27 pm

storpappa wrote:As someone watching this discussion, if you are going to put down $200k and three years of your life, I appreciate the frank and some times butt hurt causing answers I see on these threads.

That is really all I can contribute of value to the discussion, so please do continue, because it is helpful to some of us, myself included


you're welcome

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AT9
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby AT9 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:16 am

Dirigo wrote:Neither school is likely to get you biglaw.
William & Mary has a BigLaw(100+attorneys)+Fed Clerk placement of 25.3%
Washington & Lee BL+FC is 19.6%

Washington & Lee does have a significantly lower employment score and a significantly higher underemployment score than William & Mary. Negotiate with William and Mary to increase your scholarship. Get that $60k difference down and then choose William and Mary.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/wl/wm/uva/
(I added in UVA for comparison.)


If you subtract W&M's school funded "jobs" (these are short-term $20K/yr jobs IIRC) their LST score is like 62% compared to W&L's 56%, so the difference is not all that significant.

OP: If you can't get W&M much closer to W&L, I think W&L is the clear choice. But be prepared to drop out after the first semester if your grades aren't any good.

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Rigo
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby Rigo » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:30 am

AT9 wrote:
Dirigo wrote:Neither school is likely to get you biglaw.
William & Mary has a BigLaw(100+attorneys)+Fed Clerk placement of 25.3%
Washington & Lee BL+FC is 19.6%

Washington & Lee does have a significantly lower employment score and a significantly higher underemployment score than William & Mary. Negotiate with William and Mary to increase your scholarship. Get that $60k difference down and then choose William and Mary.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/wl/wm/uva/
(I added in UVA for comparison.)

If you subtract W&M's school funded "jobs" (these are short-term $20K/yr jobs IIRC) their LST score is like 62% compared to W&L's 56%, so the difference is not all that significant.

Image

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:49 am

romothesavior wrote:Did someone really just appeal to the doctrine of ejusdem generis in the Choosing a Law School forum? :lol:


Think so. :roll:

*Pukes after remembering legislation class*

jever020
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby jever020 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:09 am

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