William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

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jever020
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William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby jever020 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:16 pm

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Last edited by jever020 on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:57 pm

Firms don't seem particularly willing to hire W&L grads right now, you really see it getting worse?

How much debt will you be in? What kind of job are you hoping to get?

jever020
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby jever020 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:18 pm

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BigZuck
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:19 pm

jever020 wrote:I'm not sure, I've just heard w&l employment is less than stellar.

Business law in virginia is the goal

~$110,000 debt william and Mary
~$50,000 debt washington and lee


What do you mean by business law?

jever020
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby jever020 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:59 pm

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Rigo
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:00 am

Is "business law" the new tap tap under the bathroom stall when someone wants biglaw?

timbs4339
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:08 am

Dirigo wrote:Is "business law" the new tap tap under the bathroom stall when someone wants biglaw?


Business law is what 0L's say when they know their slate of schools doesn't give them a good shot at biglaw but they are trying to convince themselves there are a lot of midlaw jobs out there. These jobs do the same work as biglaw but with less hours, in a smaller organization, with a paycheck in the respectable low-six/high-five range. They further assume they'll be able to make up the difference on big firm associates after a few years.

OP: Sorry, but to practice the corporate/securities/M+A/Chapter 7/11 stuff right out of law school you need to get on with a biglaw firm. You are unlikely to do this from WL or WM. Midlaw firms usually hire experienced associates from biglaw firms. Additionally, there are certain regulatory positions that might allow you to transition into biglaw after a few years but these are rare and just as competitive.

You need to be prepared for the probability that you could be earning 40-60K at a small firm in Virginia doing legal work for normal people. If that's not the kind of life you want, you may want to consider another way of finding a job where you wear a suit to work.

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Rigo
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:10 am

Neither school is likely to get you biglaw.
William & Mary has a BigLaw(100+attorneys)+Fed Clerk placement of 25.3%
Washington & Lee BL+FC is 19.6%

Washington & Lee does have a significantly lower employment score and a significantly higher underemployment score than William & Mary. Negotiate with William and Mary to increase your scholarship. Get that $60k difference down and then choose William and Mary.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/wl/wm/uva/
(I added in UVA for comparison.)

timbs4339 wrote:You need to be prepared for the probability that you could be earning 40-60K at a small firm in Virginia doing legal work for normal people. If that's not the kind of life you want, you may want to consider another way of finding a job where you wear a suit to work.

Seconding this.

03152016
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:12 am

jever020 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
jever020 wrote:I'm not sure, I've just heard w&l employment is less than stellar.

Business law in virginia is the goal

~$110,000 debt william and Mary
~$50,000 debt washington and lee


What do you mean by business law?



I use that term broadly. Real estate, securities, m&a, startups, business consultation, contracts, corporate, bankruptcy, etc.

Anything in there. Not sure exactly what, as I've yet to have any experience (that's what law school electives, internships are for I reckon)

Those parts of the law that deal with business and not government or crime.

firms with a serious transactional practice are out of reach for most students at w&m and w&l. you need to rethink your goals

jever020
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby jever020 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:36 am

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downbeat14
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby downbeat14 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:39 am

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Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

03152016
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:43 am

i don't understand. two hours ago you said that business law is the goal and listed off a number of corporate practice areas you're interested in. now you're saying you're "not very interested in working biglaw." which is it?

doesn't sound like you know what you want. maybe you're rushing into this prematurely. don't make any final decisions until you've figured out your goals.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:53 am

apparently in tls hivemind small law firms dont do business law

03152016
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:56 am

oh sorry i thought that people making $60k don't get staffed on m&a deals but obv i'm wrong

BigZuck
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:08 am

JohannDeMann wrote:apparently in tls hivemind small law firms dont do business law


He said securities and m&a, I don't think its unreasonable for people to think that means big law. Do you think it's unreasonable for them to think that?

Like, I enjoy your degen "just do fraud bro" schtick but it gets kinda dicey when you get the on topics all schticky. There are real lives at stake here bro.

OP- if you want to do just your run of the mill small law lawyering type stuff then either are fine as long as your debt is relatively low. I don't know that one is better than the other if you have modest career goals so I'd pick whichever is cheaper or, failing that, whichever you like more.

I wouldn't go to either if you want to make a lot of money or do a lot of deals. Those schools don't do a good job of putting people in that position.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:27 am

BigZuck wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:apparently in tls hivemind small law firms dont do business law


He said securities and m&a, I don't think its unreasonable for people to think that means big law. Do you think it's unreasonable for them to think that?

Like, I enjoy your degen "just do fraud bro" schtick but it gets kinda dicey when you get the on topics all schticky. There are real lives at stake here bro.

OP- if you want to do just your run of the mill small law lawyering type stuff then either are fine as long as your debt is relatively low. I don't know that one is better than the other if you have modest career goals so I'd pick whichever is cheaper or, failing that, whichever you like more.

I wouldn't go to either if you want to make a lot of money or do a lot of deals. Those schools don't do a good job of putting people in that position.


now this is an honest answer. is it really that hard to answer this the first time instead of syaing oh OP wants to do biglaw and these arent good for biglaw. most law students dont want to biglaw. its really not a hard concept.

Real estate, securities, m&a, startups, business consultation, contracts, corporate, bankruptcy, etc.

Small law firms do lots of this. They also do smaller startups like lLCs and pships and bankruptcy and corporate work for smaller clients. Most everything that is done in this world is done in small law because there are very limited companies in the US who can afford big law rates.

03152016
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:30 am

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Rigo
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:35 am

Succinct and dead-on.
I'm enjoying your minimalist posts, Brut.

BigZuck
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:55 am

JohannDeMann wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:apparently in tls hivemind small law firms dont do business law


He said securities and m&a, I don't think its unreasonable for people to think that means big law. Do you think it's unreasonable for them to think that?

Like, I enjoy your degen "just do fraud bro" schtick but it gets kinda dicey when you get the on topics all schticky. There are real lives at stake here bro.

OP- if you want to do just your run of the mill small law lawyering type stuff then either are fine as long as your debt is relatively low. I don't know that one is better than the other if you have modest career goals so I'd pick whichever is cheaper or, failing that, whichever you like more.

I wouldn't go to either if you want to make a lot of money or do a lot of deals. Those schools don't do a good job of putting people in that position.


now this is an honest answer. is it really that hard to answer this the first time instead of syaing oh OP wants to do biglaw and these arent good for biglaw. most law students dont want to biglaw. its really not a hard concept.

Real estate, securities, m&a, startups, business consultation, contracts, corporate, bankruptcy, etc.

Small law firms do lots of this. They also do smaller startups like lLCs and pships and bankruptcy and corporate work for smaller clients. Most everything that is done in this world is done in small law because there are very limited companies in the US who can afford big law rates.


I'm struggling to see who gave a dishonest answer. Help me out here.

I think you're raging against a machine that largely doesn't exist. It's clear this poster doesn't know much of anything about the legal world or the job market, says things like M&A, and is considering a trap like W&L (albeit, luckily, on a full ride which negates a good amount of the trappishness). I think it's fair for people to say "Hey man, pump the breaks." Why do you think that isn't fair?

I think you're great when you're giving out HOT SPORTS TAKES or regaling us with tales of your latest bender but on topic posting might not be your strong suit. There's real people with real lives and real consequences for people's actions here. You've gotta take this stuff seriously and stop being such a clown my dude.

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romothesavior
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:14 am

Plenty of small firms do contract and real estate work, but Zuck is dead on when he says small law firms don't do the other types of stuff OP mentioned (M&A, securities, etc.) The exception would be small firms made up of a few big firm refugees who broke off to do their own thing, but that's really not the kind of place you're likely to land a job. Probably (definitely) harder to find than big law.

OP, of the two options listed, the full ride wins by a landslide. But retake and reapply is by far your best option.

timbs4339
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:10 am

Lawyering tip: Usually, you try to divine the meaning of ambiguous terms in a list by reference to other, less ambiguous terms in that list. So when OP says he wants to do contract/real estate law, and then lists a bunch of stuff that big firms do, it's a fair assumption that his definition of contracts or real estate is close to work like major land acquisitions for developers and draft distribution agreements for big, important F500 clients.

If OP had said "I want to do wills and trusts, personal injury, individual bankruptcies, contracts, and immigration," it's a fair inference that he'd be happy doing lease agreements for restaurants or home closings for families.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:42 am

jever020 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
jever020 wrote:I'm not sure, I've just heard w&l employment is less than stellar.

Business law in virginia is the goal

~$110,000 debt william and Mary
~$50,000 debt washington and lee


What do you mean by business law?



I use that term broadly. Real estate, securities, m&a, startups, business consultation, contracts, corporate, bankruptcy, etc.

Anything in there. Not sure exactly what, as I've yet to have any experience (that's what law school electives, internships are for I reckon)

Those parts of the law that deal with business and not government or crime.


I mean why not just start with the first answer being what I had to get BigZuck to say. If you want to do contracts or real esstate work, go to W&L for free for a small firm and make $60k at graduation maybe. If you want biglaw M&A, retake. Everyone just assumed OP wanted biglaw and then said retake. Not one person mentioned that small law firms did real estate and contract work. That's terrible advice because it's not complete. You may not like my advice, but I present posters with an honest view and honest advice of what is out there and let them make their own decisions. Nothing I said is wrong or could even be viewed as deceitful.
As I said in my post, and which has been confirmed, there are lots of small firm jobs doing contracts and real estate that really aren't hard to get. To expand upon that further for OP, Business consulting doesn't exist in law really so cross that out. Corporate, startups, and bankruptcy exist for plenty of small businesses in small law. But if you want to learn these at a high level with big dollars at stake, biglaw does that. M&A and securities are pretty much biglaw only besides a couple of small boutiques that are unicorn jobs.
You're in law school BigZuck and Brut. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and when you guys opine about what jobs exist in the real legal world, it's disastrous without even anecdotal evidence of support.

LurkerShirker
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby LurkerShirker » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 am

If you look closely at William and Mary's LST score for the most recent class of 2013 and highlight the asterix, you will note that "19.8% of the score comes from jobs funded by the school itself." Take away that 19.8% (which jobs pay a minimal amount and end after a year), and W&M has an LST score of 55.8%, which is slightly less than W&L's LST score of 56.6%, which does not come with the asterix.

These are pretty comparable schools, but W&M is a bit overranked at this point because US News and LST count these school funded jobs.

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romothesavior
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:03 pm

Did someone really just appeal to the doctrine of ejusdem generis in the Choosing a Law School forum? :lol:

03152016
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Re: William and Mary (12k off) VS Washington and Lee (FULL RIDE)

Postby 03152016 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:21 pm

@johann

i don't need to be a practicing lawyer to know that you're not going to get m&a or securities work in shitlaw you imbecile




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