How valuable is a t14, really?

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bruinfan10
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby bruinfan10 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:14 pm

fats provolone wrote:yea georgetown at sticker i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy

however: describe your desired job in environmental law and how vermont's #1 ranking will help you get there

180

timbs4339
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:00 pm

pamphleteer wrote:
ETA: In fairness to GULC it does have an excellent LRAP.


Not quite. GULC, like most schools, has linked LRAP to PSLF. What it will do is loan you the amount of money you need to make your PSLF payments and then forgive that loan after six months. At the end of 10 years, the government, not GULC, forgives the rest of the loan.

Contrast this with a good LRAP, where the school loan is based on a 10 year standard repayment schedule, not PSLF. After a certain time period, the balance of the LRAP loan is entirely forgiven. So the amounts taken off the balance are larger.

You can see why the GULC loan offers much less flexibility when you start to hit Y5 out of LS. Let's say you work at some enviro policy PI org for five years making 60K, right around when you become more marketable. Maybe you just want to try something new, or funding gets cut, or you have to move, or whatever. So you go looking for other types of work, maybe a field office of the EPA, maybe a boutique enviro firm- either way, you're off LRAP because you're probably making close to 100K. But the school has already taken a big chunk out of your loans. On a PSLF linked LRAP, you've made much lower payments by Y5 when you go back on the standard schedule.

Also, do a search for "New America foundation Georgetown law" to get a sense of why PSLF is under attack.

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Desert Fox
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:51 pm

Why should a school pay off your loans if you end up in private practice?

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bjsesq
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby bjsesq » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:54 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Why should a school pay off your loans if you end up in private practice?


DF lobbying "research" on full display

timbs4339
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:59 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Why should a school pay off your loans if you end up in private practice?


No LRAP program pays off your loans. It fronts you the money to make payments. How much they are fronting you is the issue.

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Desert Fox
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:18 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Why should a school pay off your loans if you end up in private practice?


No LRAP program pays off your loans. It fronts you the money to make payments. How much they are fronting you is the issue.


lol ok

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fats provolone
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:28 pm

incredibly meaningful distinction you've pointed out, there. are you a law student by any chance?

timbs4339
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:12 pm

fats provolone wrote:incredibly meaningful distinction you've pointed out, there. are you a law student by any chance?


It's extremely meaningful. It's not giving a windfall to public interest students to offer them an LRAP program that is more generous than the one that is tied to PSLF. It allows those students to have more flexibility which is a good thing for those students. If your options are "go to school with LRAP/PSLF program" or "retake for school with a better LRAP" that's definitely a consideration.

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bretby
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby bretby » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:33 pm

You can see why the GULC loan offers much less flexibility when you start to hit Y5 out of LS. Let's say you work at some enviro policy PI org for five years making 60K, right around when you become more marketable. Maybe you just want to try something new, or funding gets cut, or you have to move, or whatever. So you go looking for other types of work, maybe a field office of the EPA, maybe a boutique enviro firm- either way, you're off LRAP because you're probably making close to 100K.
.


Not true - GULC has a tapered LRAP that doesn't cut off fully until 120k. It's 100% til 75k, then tapers
Last edited by bretby on Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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forza
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby forza » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:56 pm

bugsy33 wrote:Choosing between GULC and Vermont is like choosing between a Cadillac Escalade and a Huffy BMX bike because the Huffy is more "eco friendly."


I think a more apt analogy is that it's like choosing between a ride on the Titanic or on the S.S. Minnow. You're going down either way.

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RobertGolddust
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby RobertGolddust » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:18 pm

[quote] If you want to make "a ton of money" the only option is biglaw, and the only acceptable choice for those odds is a T13. [quote]

This has to be false.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:22 pm

RobertGolddust wrote:
timbs4339 wrote: If you want to make "a ton of money" the only option is biglaw, and the only acceptable choice for those odds is a T13.


This has to be false.

RobertGolddust wrote:Can't sleep tonight, so I wanted to share my improvement on this recent LSAT. I went up from a 155 in Feb to a 162 in December. Should be good enough to get into my regional school of choice, but who knows I might have another retake left in me. Honestly though, I just want to be done with this test and move on to law school.

Don't let cognitive dissonance ruin your life.

03152016
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby 03152016 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:28 pm

not sure what is so hard to believe
most recent grads fresh out of law school don't make "a ton of money"
those that do are primarily in biglaw
the vast majority of schools place less than half their graduates in large firms

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RobertGolddust
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby RobertGolddust » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:58 pm

most recent grads fresh out of law school don't make "a ton of money"
those that do are primarily in biglaw


I agree that Big Law is pretty much the only way to make a lot of money right of school. But I was thinking more long term when I mentioned the above quote has to be false. I personally know tons of Lawyers who have never been anywhere near big law, yet make tons of money.
Last edited by RobertGolddust on Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:02 pm

RobertGolddust wrote:
most recent grads fresh out of law school don't make "a ton of money"
those that do are primarily in biglaw


I agree that Big Law is pretty much the only way to make a lot of money right of school. But I was thinking more long term when I said that above quote has to be false. I personally know tons of Lawyers who have never been anywhere near big law, yet make tons of money.


Are those lawyers you speak of by any chance boomers who graduated before 2007?

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RobertGolddust
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby RobertGolddust » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:12 pm

Are those lawyers you speak of by any chance boomers who graduated before 2007?



Yes, but what does that have to do with it? The legal profession hasn't really changed.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:13 pm

RobertGolddust wrote:
Are those lawyers you speak of by any chance boomers who graduated before 2007?



Yes, but what does that have to do with it? The legal profession hasn't really changed.


Oh this is rich.

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star fox
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby star fox » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:25 pm

RobertGolddust wrote:
most recent grads fresh out of law school don't make "a ton of money"
those that do are primarily in biglaw


I agree that Big Law is pretty much the only way to make a lot of money right of school. But I was thinking more long term when I mentioned the above quote has to be false. I personally know tons of Lawyers who have never been anywhere near big law, yet make tons of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

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Desert Fox
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:26 pm

There is definitely some survivorship bias, but if you can hack shitlaw you'll do pretty well for yourself.

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RobertGolddust
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby RobertGolddust » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:18 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias


I can appreciate this. But anecdotally, I've never met a lawyer from a T14, yet I've met more lawyers than I can count who are seriously rolling in the Benjamins. I've met one law school failure my whole life while riding coach on a plane. She went to some TTT and now owns toy store.

This might commit the anecdotal fallacy, but its hard to deny that good lawyers make tons of money compared to average Joes. To say that the only way to make big money lawyering is through big law is flat out absurd.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:20 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:Oh this is rich.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:22 am

RobertGolddust wrote:I can appreciate this. But anecdotally, I've never met a lawyer from a T14, yet I've met more lawyers than I can count who are seriously rolling in the Benjamins. I've met one law school failure my whole life while riding coach on a plane. She went to some TTT and now owns toy store.

This might commit the anecdotal fallacy, but its hard to deny that good lawyers make tons of money compared to average Joes. To say that the only way to make big money lawyering is through big law is flat out absurd.


Most people don't say that. The lawyers that really make a lot of money aren't actually in biglaw - they're lawyers like this: http://www.forbes.com/profile/joe-jamail-jr/

It also depends how you define big money.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:22 am

RobertGolddust wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias


I can appreciate this. But anecdotally, I've never met a lawyer from a T14, yet I've met more lawyers than I can count who are seriously rolling in the Benjamins. I've met one law school failure my whole life while riding coach on a plane. She went to some TTT and now owns toy store.

This might commit the anecdotal fallacy, but its hard to deny that good lawyers make tons of money compared to average Joes. To say that the only way to make big money lawyering is through big law is flat out absurd.

You take that 162 LSAT and you go kill em Robert Golddust! Don't you dare do things now which could help you alleviate some of the risk, like retaking the LSAT! Get rich son!

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JohannDeMann
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:32 am

A t14 is just a path of least resistance. The jobs come to you, though biglaw sucks to do. It's more formulaic. But the people that navigate through law as a career - like you've observed can make a lot of money. But it takes a combination of skills that not a lot of people have - you have to be a risk taker, have to be patient and endure lots of shitty times, have to be a schmoozer and able to sell. I worked for a non descript personal injury attorney who wasnt very smart and went to a shitty law school. He worked half as much as any of my biglaw partner bosses now and made just as much if not more. but his path to get there was much less certain.

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RobertGolddust
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Re: How valuable is a t14, really?

Postby RobertGolddust » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:37 am

You take that 162 LSAT and you go kill em Robert Golddust! Don't you dare do things now which could help you alleviate some of the risk, like retaking the LSAT! Get rich son!



lol I'm probably going to retake. Its just disgusting to listen to people complain about the legal profession when its better than 95% of the careers out there.




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