Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

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jw316
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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:24 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
jw316 wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:I'm from Michigan and I don't think I'd go anywhere other than U of M. It's not because of some TLS hivemind "NYC BIGLAW OR BUST BRO" mentality. I get that some people want to stay in Michigan and work in a small firm. But Wayne/UDM/Michigan State people just aren't getting jobs. Not just missing out on BigLaw/federal clerkships. They're just not reliably getting any JD required job.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true. If they aren't getting jobs and the majority of the class from UofM leaves the state every year to take the Illinois/New York/Cali bar then who is getting the JD required jobs in metro-Detroit? Cooley grads? No.

To clarify I do have friends that had difficulty finding jobs from all three of those schools, but it was stupid shit like wanting Proskauer Rose with below median grades.


To be fair I haven't lived in Michigan in almost a decade, so you may well be right. But I assumed that Wayne/UDM/MSU grads were getting the majority of jobs in metro-Detroit. I also assumed that there aren't a lot of those jobs to begin with.


Not trying to be/sound like a dick but I am right. You're also right with that assumption in terms of there not being a ton of jobs to begin with, the legal market in Michigan isn't very big at all lol. But what I'm trying to say is that because of that, it's also not very prefftigious. So yes 100% firms do want UofM grads because it's the best school in the state. But again, many if not most of them leave the state for those 3 places I specified (NYC/Chicago/Cali) and then you're left with the rest, those who chose to stay or those who had to stay because their grades weren't high enough to get them jobs in one of those 3 places. Once firms pick through those who are remaining, they hit up the other schools in the state—Wayne/UDM/MSU. And Wayne does considerably better than the other two, at least in terms of reputation and alumni network.

I don't care about rankings, MSU is awesome and is my undergrad alma mater, but it hasn't been established long enough to really have any pull (formerly Detroit College of Law). MSU grads certainly do get jobs, but if someone was set on staying in Michigan and doesn't want big law or some other "special snowflake" job then Wayne State with a full ride is absolutely TCR.

Again what other schools are those hiring in metro-Detroit going to draw from?
Last edited by jw316 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:27 pm

I'm probably most familiar with the TX legal market.

For someone that wants to work in Michigan, I would suggest they go to Michigan on a full ride. When and if that doesn't happen, then reassess.

I'm not sure how many more times I can say "if that's what you want, go for it" or "if you're a particular type of person, it's probably fine." I wouldn't settle for it when you have a 3.8 and so much upside left though.

And I'm not talking about someone spending 200K to go to Harvard when they want to defend DUIs in Grand Rapids. I'm not sure where you got that from.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:29 pm

a school where less than half of graduates are full-time lawyers nine months after graduation "kicks ass"?
how so, please explain
it's easy to bloviate, i want you to give clear, non-anecdotal support for your claim that wayne "kicks ass" in michigan, in light of the fact that less than half of graduates find full-time legal work at nine months

next, i would like you to explain why you've labeled tls as "t14 or bust"
anyone who is literate and on the boards for longer than a day knows that the common advice to those not seeking elite outcomes is to go for the money at a strong regional
i can't think of a single active poster with the attitude that you've described

provide some support for these two dubious and unsupported claims

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:32 pm

BigZuck wrote:I'm probably most familiar with the TX legal market.

For someone that wants to work in Michigan, I would suggest they go to Michigan on a full ride. When and if that doesn't happen, then reassess.

I'm not sure how many more times I can say "if that's what you want, go for it" or "if you're a particular type of person, it's probably fine." I wouldn't settle for it when you have a 3.8 and so much upside left though.

And I'm not talking about someone spending 200K to go to Harvard when they want to defend DUIs in Grand Rapids. I'm not sure where you got that from.


Thank you for being redundant.

Yes OP, to clarify you absolutely should seek a full ride at UofM, because why not? It's the best school in the state and places well nationally if you ever decide you want to leave. But I thought that was pretty much a no-brainer to seek a full-ride from UofM and if not then Wayne State IS your next best bet.

Because you said his GPA can get him into Harvard. Which is awesome and it can with a killer LSAT score. But I'm pointing out that depending on OP's goals, while yes Harvard is the shit and "ooo yeah H-bomb", etc. one would argue that it's an insane waste of $ just to come back to Michigan and do small/midlaw when compared with a full ride and not having to pay off such an insane amount of debt.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:37 pm

Brut wrote:a school where less than half of graduates are full-time lawyers nine months after graduation "kicks ass"?
how so, please explain
it's easy to bloviate, i want you to give clear, non-anecdotal support for your claim that wayne "kicks ass" in michigan, in light of the fact that less than half of graduates find full-time legal work at nine months

next, i would like you to explain why you've labeled tls as "t14 or bust"
anyone who is literate and on the boards for longer than a day knows that the common advice to those not seeking elite outcomes is to go for the money at a strong regional
i can't think of a single active poster with the attitude that you've described

provide some support for these two dubious and unsupported claims


Look it up for yourself. I'm not saying the statistics on LST are wrong because they aren't. And honestly, they make perfect sense/are almost exactly what they should be given the poor/sub-par quality of the student body as a whole. But again, if UofM grads are leaving and Wayne/UDM/MSU grads aren't getting jobs then please show me WHO is and what schools are placing well here and I'll gladly bite my tongue. Who is coming to Michigan? Displaced Loyola Chicago/Kent grads? No.

By kicks ass I was referring to its reputation. Frankly Wayne State needs to be looked at more like BC, in the sense that BC is probably the 2nd best school in Massachusetts, etc. While I realize the employment statistics are vastly different, in terms of reputation that's how Wayne should be viewed in Michigan. Not the midwest, but in the state of Michigan.

What strong regional would you suggest that would do better in Metro-Detroit than Wayne State?

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:40 pm

I called it a Harvard GPA because it's not really a Yale or Stanford GPA. But Harvard GPAs can get full rides at schools like Michigan and Northwestern, probably big scholarships at places like Chicago.

I feel like you're either being willfully dense or just plain dense, you're arguing against arguments that people haven't made and it seems really unproductive at this point so I'm tapping out.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:47 pm

BigZuck wrote:I called it a Harvard GPA because it's not really a Yale or Stanford GPA. But Harvard GPAs can get full rides at schools like Michigan and Northwestern, probably big scholarships at places like Chicago.

I feel like you're either being willfully dense or just plain dense, you're arguing against arguments that people haven't made and it seems really unproductive at this point so I'm tapping out.


Read the thread and read my posts and I don't see how you would say I'm being dense. Again, I get the TLS mentality. It's called "top-law-schools.com" for a reason. I'm not trying to be inflammatory or start anything but I'm just sick of it being repeated ad nauseum to follow the rankings and what not when people who don't have big law aspirations need to go to wherever they can that gives them the best chance of realizing their career goal coupled with the least amount of debt.

I'm not arguing against points people haven't made, you suggested OP pursue other "better" options and I'm saying based on OP's career goals and desire to remain in Michigan, there may not be a better one given that he's already obtained a full ride scholly from Wayne.

I'm actually trying to provide helpful advice to someone who has said more than once they KNOW they want to remain here.

Take my posts out of the equation and just please point to a school or schools other than UofMichigan that do better in the Metro-Detroit area and I'll gladly shut up.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:57 pm

if you're going to make ridiculous claims that have the potential to fool 0Ls into attending a school with a terrible employment track record, you need to provide some support
your rebuttal to my first point was completely non-responsive, and you didn't even try to address my second point

until you've provided actual responses, i will assume that you've conceded both points

my next problem with your argument is that you assume that looking at associate/partner profiles at law firms post crash is an accurate indicator of placement today
everyone knows that the legal market was far stronger pre-2009, when the vast majority of those attorneys were hired

in the current era, where less than half of wayne grads are employed in full-time legal jobs at nine months, what does their former placement power matter? what does their former reputation matter?

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:59 pm

Brut wrote:if you're going to make ridiculous claims that have the potential to fool 0Ls into attending a school with a terrible employment track record, you need to provide some support
your rebuttal to my first point was completely non-responsive, and you didn't even try to address my second point

until you've provided actual responses, i will assume that you've conceded both points

my next problem with your argument is that you assume that looking at associate/partner profiles at law firms post crash is an accurate indicator of placement today
everyone knows that the legal market was far stronger pre-2009, when the vast majority of those attorneys were hired

in the current era, where less than half of wayne grads are employed in full-time legal jobs at nine months, what does their former placement power matter? what does their former reputation matter?


And you still haven't answered mine. If you're going to refute my claims or try to discredit my argument, answer my question:

What strong regional would you suggest to OP that would do better in Metro-Detroit than Wayne State?

I have nothing to gain here. I'm not going to Wayne nor would I ever I'm T6 or bust because of what I'd like to do with my career. But for example, if OP is like one of my friends who wants to work as a public defender in Detroit then what is a better option than Wayne at full ride?
Last edited by jw316 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:01 pm

that's not how this works

you can't make ridiculous claims on this forum
and then dodge every time someone tries to get you to support them

you also can't make me defend a position i didn't take

no offense, but you're coming off really, really stupid right now

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:04 pm

jw316 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I called it a Harvard GPA because it's not really a Yale or Stanford GPA. But Harvard GPAs can get full rides at schools like Michigan and Northwestern, probably big scholarships at places like Chicago.

I feel like you're either being willfully dense or just plain dense, you're arguing against arguments that people haven't made and it seems really unproductive at this point so I'm tapping out.


Read the thread and read my messages and I don't see how you would say I'm being dense. Again, I get the TLS mentality. It's called "top-law-schools.com" for a reason. I'm not trying to be inflammatory or start anything but I'm just sick of it being repeated ad nauseum to follow the rankings and what not when people who don't have big law aspirations need to go to wherever they can that gives them the best chance of realizing their career goal coupled with the least amount of debt.

I'm not arguing against points people haven't made, you suggested OP pursue other "better" options and I'm saying based on OP's career goals and desire to remain in Michigan, there may not be a better one given that he's already obtained a full ride scholly from Wayne.

I'm actually trying to provide helpful advice to someone who has said more than once they KNOW they want to remain here.

Take my posts out of the equation and just please point to a school or schools other than UofMichigan that do better in the Metro-Detroit area and I'll gladly shut up.


Chicago would be a better school if you wanted Detroit big law. Northwestern. Harvard. Etc.

But then you're gonna say "what about small law" when I already said yeah, fine, if that's what you want. I don't think that's what Joe Blow Schmo Law School Applicant has in mind when they apply to law school so that's why I suggest getting into the best school possible for someone's situation but maybe that applies to the OP. Maybe they have a guaranteed job. Maybe they want to roll the dice for a low paying small law/local gov job. I don't know.

You're trying to argue with me because I said the OP should give the LSAT another shot to try to get better options. Like a full ride to Michigan.

I seriously can't do this any more. I'm done.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:14 pm

Brut wrote:that's not how this works

you can't make ridiculous claims on this forum
and then dodge every time someone tries to get you to support them

you also can't make me defend a position i didn't take

no offense, but you're coming off really, really stupid right now


Great, I'm coming off really really stupid. But again, what strong regional would you suggest to OP that would do better in Metro-Detroit than Wayne State? And why can't you answer that if attending Wayne on a full ride is such a bad decision?

If you're right and Wayne is so fucking terrible that no one should ever go there with a full ride, then other than UofMichigan, then where should OP go to school with the goal of staying in Michigan?

If you can't answer that question (because there isn't a school that does better) then what you're saying doesn't matter.

Yes I can tell OP to go to LST as well. Again, that's part of what I personally did to make my own decision on which schools to attend. But I'm not OP and I don't have OP's career goals (which we still don't know) and telling him that x amount of Wayne State grads don't find jobs is great and all, but again, doesn't help actually accomplish anything which is WHERE should OP go to school then?

The reason Wayne has such a poor LST/poor bar passage rate/poor employment scores is because again, look at your average member of the student body. I wouldn't expect them to pass the bar on the first try. While it's clear no one can predict their performance before law school, OP doesn't exactly sound like he matches up with the profile of your average Wayne student, likely why they threw him a full ride.

Yes I get it with OP's GPA and a few more points to the LSAT he could go anywhere in the T14, even H/S, but again, depending on goals, what's the point in doing that and potentially taking on more debt just to come back to Michigan and the same opportunities he'd have from Wayne. Again, can't guarantee performance in law school but fuck, take me out of things. This isn't about me. It's about OP.

Where else aside from UofMichigan would you tell OP to go if they want to stay in Michigan?

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:21 pm

BigZuck wrote:
jw316 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I called it a Harvard GPA because it's not really a Yale or Stanford GPA. But Harvard GPAs can get full rides at schools like Michigan and Northwestern, probably big scholarships at places like Chicago.

I feel like you're either being willfully dense or just plain dense, you're arguing against arguments that people haven't made and it seems really unproductive at this point so I'm tapping out.


Read the thread and read my messages and I don't see how you would say I'm being dense. Again, I get the TLS mentality. It's called "top-law-schools.com" for a reason. I'm not trying to be inflammatory or start anything but I'm just sick of it being repeated ad nauseum to follow the rankings and what not when people who don't have big law aspirations need to go to wherever they can that gives them the best chance of realizing their career goal coupled with the least amount of debt.

I'm not arguing against points people haven't made, you suggested OP pursue other "better" options and I'm saying based on OP's career goals and desire to remain in Michigan, there may not be a better one given that he's already obtained a full ride scholly from Wayne.

I'm actually trying to provide helpful advice to someone who has said more than once they KNOW they want to remain here.

Take my posts out of the equation and just please point to a school or schools other than UofMichigan that do better in the Metro-Detroit area and I'll gladly shut up.


Chicago would be a better school if you wanted Detroit big law. Northwestern. Harvard. Etc.

But then you're gonna say "what about small law" when I already said yeah, fine, if that's what you want. I don't think that's what Joe Blow Schmo Law School Applicant has in mind when they apply to law school so that's why I suggest getting into the best school possible for someone's situation but maybe that applies to the OP. Maybe they have a guaranteed job. Maybe they want to roll the dice for a low paying small law/local gov job. I don't know.

You're trying to argue with me because I said the OP should give the LSAT another shot to try to get better options. Like a full ride to Michigan.

I seriously can't do this any more. I'm done.


No I'm not. I asked OP for career goals and what was more important, higher ranked school or walking away with little debt. Because different people have different priorities.

You said, "Less than half of recent grads get lawyer jobs. Where partners went to school is an indication of old job placement, not recent job placement. Plus, survivor bias. I mean, it might be ok under really specific circumstances (a BURNING desire to work in their family's practice and they have a full ride) but I think you're painting way too rosy of a picture. And it's not a place that someone with a 3.8 should settle on, IMO"

Yes, UChicago, Northwestern, Harvard, Penn, Virginia, Cornell, whatever you might as well include the whole T14 in this will be better for Detroit big law. But I thought that was pretty obvious given in my first post that you replied to I said if OP wanted Big Law then yes, the T14 was the way to go. But I guess you missed that part? Like no shit I'm going to say "what about small law" because that was the whole point of my first post—if you want biglaw then hell no don't even think about it, if you have other goals and want to stay in Michigan than maybe if not an outright yes that's your best option—and that's what brought us this far. Don't distort the facts. My posts and yours are all ITT.

I'm not arguing, OP everyone on TLS will tell you to retake. You retake your 161 and get a 3.8/165? People are going to say OMG retake for 170+ and then you're looking at $$ from ___. But again, if your goals are just to stay in Michigan and NOT do Big Law. Yeah congrats, you got into a better school. But what has that done for your career goals?

Do your own research, talk to people in Michigan who know what they're talking about, fuck call the Dean out "I'm grateful for this full ride but what do you have to say about the employment statistics?" but for the love of god, make your own decision

For those of you who insist on arguing, yes I get that LST says x amount of grads aren't being hired for full time legal work and that's absolutely true, but why? And further if that's the case and Wayne grads aren't placing in Michigan, then who is getting legal jobs in Michigan/Metro-Detroit and where did they go to school? Would you tell OP to go to school wherever those people are going?
Last edited by jw316 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:32 pm

You want him to call the dean and ask about job placement? That should help inform his decision?

Lol, damn, well trolled brother, you had me (and Brut) going there. Nicely done.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:56 pm

you're now trying to force me to defend two positions i don't hold
first, the argument carried over from your earlier post war with zuck
and now a second position, that wayne on a full ride is necessarily a bad decision for op

i will break down my argument more clearly, since you clearly are having problems understanding it

we are on forum visited by thousands of prospective law students each cycle
when you make wild and ridiculous claims that are completely unsupported, and then when challenged, do the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and screaming, you're doing something more than utterly embarrassing yourself
you are potentially fooling dozens of 0Ls into attending a school with an abysmal placement track record
does that mean wayne should immediately close down? and no one should ever go there? no.
does it mean we should have some modicum of awareness of the words we use when describing a school that failed to place more than half of its graduates in legal jobs? yes.

you need to support your wild claims
if you don't, posters on this site will push back
i'm not one of your pushover undergrad buddies who you can argue circles around
you're not going to be able to trick me into defending the position i don't hold
1) i'm not going to defend an argument i never made about the comparative placement power of MI regionals
2) i'm also not doing to defend the argument that wayne is necessarily a poor choice for op, because op has not provided any useful information whatsoever
i'm not going to speculate about what her connections are, what her goals are, what practice area she's interested in (and the health of the market in that area), what her financial situation is, how flexible she is geographically, or any other relevant factor that was completely omitted in the op
it's cool that you're a fortune teller and think that wayne is a good choice for op based on literally no information
i think you should go into that business instead, you'll have lots of fun conning people with wild and unsupported claims

because you didn't respond to my arguments about past reputation and past placement being irrelevant, i will assume you concede those points, in addition to the two earlier points you conceded about placement power and the "t14 or bust" mentality

my next point is that you're now attempting to repeat the same argument again and again, in a failed attempt to save face and not look like you're completely unable to defend yourself
my question: will you respond substantively to all the arguments i have laid out above and in previous posts, or will you do as i expect and completely sidestep the issue, repeating the same argument over and over again
Last edited by 03152016 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:58 pm

BigZuck wrote:You want him to call the dean and ask about job placement? That should help inform his decision?

Lol, damn, well trolled brother, you had me (and Brut) going there. Nicely done.


I didn't say ask the Dean to help inform his decision, I said call him out. If things are as bad as you and Brut are making it out to be then the Dean and likely anyone connected to Wayne should be more than ready for someone to say "So according to xyz, Wayne grads aren't getting hired. What are you doing to change that and why should I come here?" Yes the Dean can spout off some bullshit but why not ask the question and see how they answer it? If he starts stammering/stuttering or replies with a shady answer or tries to point to school funded positions, etc. any of those things would give me pause.

Other than taking a shit on Wayne I've yet to see anyone try to help OP narrow down his decision or point out what schools actually DO place well in the Michigan legal market.

OP it's not about me or any of these posters, it's about you, what you want to do with your J.D., what city/state you want to do it in, your own personal view on what's more important to you—ranking or debt, and most importantly above all going to whatever school that allows you the best chance to turn those goals into reality.

If they aren't "special snowflake" goals then ask yourself if coming out of Wayne with no debt would allow you to accomplish those goals/find employment in what you want to do. If it's not likely, then clearly that isn't the right idea and you shouldn't even consider Wayne. Then ask yourself if going to a better ranked school, whether it's Notre Dame, Michigan, Harvard or anywhere else, would have any added benefit to you accomplishing those goals and if so, how much ($) that extra benefit is worth.

Or just listen to Brut and BigZuck since they both are so well informed about legal hiring in Michigan and other than naming off T14 schools, they clearly have a laundry list of schools that place better in Michigan than Wayne like ____, _____, ______, ______, and _____. Which by the way are all great schools and you should definitely consider attending because even with a full ride and wanting to stay in Michigan, Wayne is such a TTTT that no one should ever go there. ____, _____, ______, ______, and _____ are much better options for your path than Wayne is.

Yes OP has a 3.8. Awesome GPA, and to reiterate yes OP you can have some amazing schools open up to you with a retake and an increase in your LSAT score. But you're the only one that knows what you want to do and why you want to do it/what city, state you want to end up in. Ask yourself what getting admitted/$ at school X or Y or Z would really translate to for your career goals

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:58 pm

Brut wrote:you're now trying to force me to defend two positions i don't hold
first, the argument carried over from your earlier post war with zuck
and now a second position, that wayne on a full ride is necessarily a bad decision for op

i will break down my argument more clearly, since you clearly are having problems understanding it

we are on forum visited by thousands of prospective law students each cycle
when you make wild and ridiculous claims that are completely unsupported, and then when challenged, do the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and screaming, you're doing something more than utterly embarrassing yourself
you are potentially fooling dozens of 0Ls into attending a school with an abysmal placement track record
does that mean wayne should immediately close down? and no one should ever go there? no.
does it mean we should have some modicum of awareness of the words we use when describing a school that failed to place more than half of its graduates in legal jobs? yes.

you need to support your wild claims
if you don't, posters on this site will push back
i'm not one of your pushover undergrad buddies who you can argue circles around
you're not going to be able to trick me into defending the position i don't hold
1) i'm not going to defend an argument i never made about the comparative placement power of MI regionals
2) i'm also not doing to defend the argument that wayne is necessarily a poor choice for op, because op has not provided any useful information whatsoever
i'm not going to speculate about what her connections are, what her goals are, what practice area she's interested in (and the health of the market in that area), what her financial situation is, how flexible she is geographically, or any other relevant factor that was completely omitted in the op
it's cool that you're a fortune teller and think that wayne is a good choice for op based on literally no information
i think you should go into that business instead, you'll have lots of fun conning people with wild and unsupported claims

because you didn't respond to my arguments about past reputation and past placement being irrelevant, i will assume you concede those points, in addition to the two earlier points you conceded about placement power and the "t14 or bust" mentality

my next point is that you're now attempting to repeat the same argument again and again, in a failed attempt to save face and not look like you're completely unable to defend yourself
my question: will you respond substantively to all the arguments i have laid out above and in previous posts, or will you do as i expect and completely sidestep the issue, repeating the same argument over and over again


We're still full circle. It isn't about me, it's about OP. So let's try this, okay OP don't go to Wayne.

Where should OP go to school oh wise and all knowing Brut? And does that school place better in Michigan/metro-Detroit?
Last edited by jw316 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:01 pm

i knew you would do that

i even said you'd do it in an attempt to shame you, but you couldn't stop yourself

this is so sad

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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:03 pm

jw316 wrote:
Brut wrote:you're now trying to force me to defend two positions i don't hold
first, the argument carried over from your earlier post war with zuck
and now a second position, that wayne on a full ride is necessarily a bad decision for op

i will break down my argument more clearly, since you clearly are having problems understanding it

we are on forum visited by thousands of prospective law students each cycle
when you make wild and ridiculous claims that are completely unsupported, and then when challenged, do the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and screaming, you're doing something more than utterly embarrassing yourself
you are potentially fooling dozens of 0Ls into attending a school with an abysmal placement track record
does that mean wayne should immediately close down? and no one should ever go there? no.
does it mean we should have some modicum of awareness of the words we use when describing a school that failed to place more than half of its graduates in legal jobs? yes.

you need to support your wild claims
if you don't, posters on this site will push back
i'm not one of your pushover undergrad buddies who you can argue circles around
you're not going to be able to trick me into defending the position i don't hold
1) i'm not going to defend an argument i never made about the comparative placement power of MI regionals
2) i'm also not doing to defend the argument that wayne is necessarily a poor choice for op, because op has not provided any useful information whatsoever
i'm not going to speculate about what her connections are, what her goals are, what practice area she's interested in (and the health of the market in that area), what her financial situation is, how flexible she is geographically, or any other relevant factor that was completely omitted in the op
it's cool that you're a fortune teller and think that wayne is a good choice for op based on literally no information
i think you should go into that business instead, you'll have lots of fun conning people with wild and unsupported claims

because you didn't respond to my arguments about past reputation and past placement being irrelevant, i will assume you concede those points, in addition to the two earlier points you conceded about placement power and the "t14 or bust" mentality

my next point is that you're now attempting to repeat the same argument again and again, in a failed attempt to save face and not look like you're completely unable to defend yourself
my question: will you respond substantively to all the arguments i have laid out above and in previous posts, or will you do as i expect and completely sidestep the issue, repeating the same argument over and over again


We're still full circle. It isn't about me, it's about OP. Where should OP go to school oh wise and all knowing Brut? And does that school place better in Michigan/metro-Detroit?

i'm just going to quote your post for posterity in case you attempt to delete it later
i can't believe you still decided to click submit on that

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jw316
Posts: 521
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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Brut wrote:i knew you would do that

i even said you'd do it in an attempt to shame you, but you couldn't stop yourself

this is so sad


What's more sad is your desire to want to turn it into a dick measuring contest/argument between you and me. Yes Brut I concede everything to you. The sky is green. You're right. I'm an idiot. For the millionth time it isn't about me. I'm not considering these schools and wouldn't and I'm not trying to sell OP on attending somewhere he wasn't considering. I'm trying to clear up the fact that yes LST says this about employment statistics and yes LST is right but it's also not surprising given the caliber of the average student/graduate of the school and that OP likely doesn't fit that mold.

But still doesn't change my question.

Where should OP go to school oh wise and all knowing Brut? And does that school place better in Michigan/metro-Detroit?

Whatever I was saying about Wayne is irrelevant, I'm just still waiting to hear all of these schools that place better!

AReasonableMan
Posts: 1504
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Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby AReasonableMan » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:08 pm

If you are alright working in Michigan and there are no stipulations on the full ride, the Wayne choice isn't terrible assuming you don't want big law or a prestigious position right out of law school.

Notre Dame has a lot of lay prestige but not great placement, which results in very smart students attending but not great job options outside the top of the class. I would imagine the competition is going to be comparable to a t-14, but that LR would be required to compete with median at a t-14. This is a very bad position.

It's heresy to say you can predict grades on this website, but the truth is that you can to some vague degree. You may or may not be above median at ND, but all available data suggests that with your numbers, you will do very well at Wayne. Obviously the issue is it's too risky to assume you'll be #1 or in the top 5%, but if you didn't have debt you wouldn't have to be.

Retaking is the better option, because with a 10 point improvement, you could get close to a full ride to Michigan where you'll be in a great position. There is no scenario where the difference would justify paying full cost to Notre Dame, and if there are no stips on your Wayne scholarship there is an argument it is a better option than sticker at Michigan.

03152016
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:09 pm

@jw

what do you think my argument is?

do you think i'm telling op not to go to wayne?

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:10 pm

jw316 wrote:
Brut wrote:i knew you would do that

i even said you'd do it in an attempt to shame you, but you couldn't stop yourself

this is so sad


What's more sad is your desire to want to turn it into a dick measuring contest/argument between you and me. Yes Brut I concede everything to you. The sky is green. You're right. I'm an idiot. For the millionth time it isn't about me. I'm not considering these schools and wouldn't and I'm not trying to sell OP on attending somewhere he wasn't considering. I'm trying to clear up the fact that yes LST says this about employment statistics and yes LST is right but it's also not surprising given the caliber of the average student/graduate of the school and that OP likely doesn't fit that mold.

But still doesn't change my question.

Where should OP go to school oh wise and all knowing Brut? And does that school place better in Michigan/metro-Detroit?

Whatever I was saying about Wayne is irrelevant, I'm just still waiting to hear all of these schools that place better!

quoting this post in case you try to delete it later

User avatar
jw316
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:11 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:If you are alright working in Michigan and there are no stipulations on the full ride, the Wayne choice isn't terrible assuming you don't want big law or a prestigious position right out of law school.

Notre Dame has a lot of lay prestige but not great placement, which results in very smart students attending but not great job options outside the top of the class. I would imagine the competition is going to be comparable to a t-14, but that LR would be required to compete with median at a t-14. This is a very bad position.

It's heresy to say you can predict grades on this website, but the truth is that you can to some vague degree. You may or may not be above median at ND, but all available data suggests that with your numbers, you will do very well at Wayne. Obviously the issue is it's too risky to assume you'll be #1 or in the top 5%, but if you didn't have debt you wouldn't have to be.

Retaking is the better option, because with a 10 point improvement, you could get close to a full ride to Michigan where you'll be in a great position. There is no scenario where the difference would justify paying full cost to Notre Dame, and if there are no stips on your Wayne scholarship there is an argument it is a better option than sticker at Michigan.


Thank you. You are aptly named.

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:11 pm

@jw

read this post again, more slowly because obviously reading isn't your strong suit

you are truly not understanding the point

i've laid it out here very clearly. read and then respond.

Brut wrote:you're now trying to force me to defend two positions i don't hold
first, the argument carried over from your earlier post war with zuck
and now a second position, that wayne on a full ride is necessarily a bad decision for op

i will break down my argument more clearly, since you clearly are having problems understanding it

we are on forum visited by thousands of prospective law students each cycle
when you make wild and ridiculous claims that are completely unsupported, and then when challenged, do the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and screaming, you're doing something more than utterly embarrassing yourself
you are potentially fooling dozens of 0Ls into attending a school with an abysmal placement track record
does that mean wayne should immediately close down? and no one should ever go there? no.
does it mean we should have some modicum of awareness of the words we use when describing a school that failed to place more than half of its graduates in legal jobs? yes.

you need to support your wild claims
if you don't, posters on this site will push back
i'm not one of your pushover undergrad buddies who you can argue circles around
you're not going to be able to trick me into defending the position i don't hold
1) i'm not going to defend an argument i never made about the comparative placement power of MI regionals
2) i'm also not doing to defend the argument that wayne is necessarily a poor choice for op, because op has not provided any useful information whatsoever
i'm not going to speculate about what her connections are, what her goals are, what practice area she's interested in (and the health of the market in that area), what her financial situation is, how flexible she is geographically, or any other relevant factor that was completely omitted in the op
it's cool that you're a fortune teller and think that wayne is a good choice for op based on literally no information
i think you should go into that business instead, you'll have lots of fun conning people with wild and unsupported claims

because you didn't respond to my arguments about past reputation and past placement being irrelevant, i will assume you concede those points, in addition to the two earlier points you conceded about placement power and the "t14 or bust" mentality

my next point is that you're now attempting to repeat the same argument again and again, in a failed attempt to save face and not look like you're completely unable to defend yourself
my question: will you respond substantively to all the arguments i have laid out above and in previous posts, or will you do as i expect and completely sidestep the issue, repeating the same argument over and over again




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