Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
anonymousposter
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:21 pm

Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby anonymousposter » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:25 pm

Hey,

161 LSAT and 3.85 GPA. I am planning in working in michigan when im done with law school.

My options: 1.) Notre Dame with crazy debt.
2.) Wayne State with full ride.
3.) Retake the LSAT, get a 165 in June or September, and then reapply early to Notre Dame (maybe get scholarships)? Does anyone know what type of an LSAT score I would need for a significant scholarship from Notre Dame?

ilikebaseball
Posts: 4103
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:04 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby ilikebaseball » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:27 pm

anonymousposter wrote:Hey,

161 LSAT and 3.85 GPA. I am planning in working in michigan when im done with law school.

My options: 1.) Notre Dame with crazy debt.
2.) Wayne State with full ride.
3.) Retake the LSAT, get a 165 in June or September, and then reapply early to Notre Dame (maybe get scholarships)? Does anyone know what type of an LSAT score I would need for a significant scholarship from Notre Dame?

definitely 3.

User avatar
ManoftheHour
Posts: 3403
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:03 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby ManoftheHour » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:29 pm

3 > Don't Go >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Waterboarding>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Castration>>>1

anonymousposter
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:21 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby anonymousposter » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:30 pm

Please folks serious and informative answers as best as you can.

Hutz_and_Goodman
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:42 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:31 pm

Notre dame with no $= you would be certifiably insane to attend.

ilikebaseball
Posts: 4103
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:04 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby ilikebaseball » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:33 pm

study your ass off. Take it in June. Assume you didn't get a 170 and continue studying for October. If you get a 170 in June, great. If you don't, take it again in October to make sure you do.

Fuck ND. Fuck Wayne. Go Big Blue.

Hope that suffices

User avatar
ManoftheHour
Posts: 3403
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:03 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby ManoftheHour » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:33 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Notre dame with no $= you would be certifiably insane to attend.

This.

ND is a good school, but definitely not at that price unless your folks are footing the entire bill.

anonymousposter
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:21 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby anonymousposter » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:34 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Notre dame with no $= you would be certifiably insane to attend.


Realistically what type of an LSAT score would I need for close to half scholarship from ND? How about full? I know I could bring it up 4 points on a second try at least but I need to know what type of numbers I should have for that to realistically happen.

BigZuck
Posts: 10884
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:38 pm

anonymousposter wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Notre dame with no $= you would be certifiably insane to attend.


Realistically what type of an LSAT score would I need for close to half scholarship from ND? How about full? I know I could bring it up 4 points on a second try at least but I need to know what type of numbers I should have for that to realistically happen.


Check out http://www.mylsn.info

anonymousposter
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:21 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby anonymousposter » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:41 pm

I thank all of you. But final question is would I really be making a bad decision at wayne if I 100% want to stay in michigan? I would have no debt.

BigZuck
Posts: 10884
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:43 pm

anonymousposter wrote:I thank all of you. But final question is would I really be making a bad decision at wayne if I 100% want to stay in michigan? I would have no debt.


Check out http://www.lawschooltransparency.com. If that's acceptable to you then go for it

The LSAT is so learnable and your GPA so high that you could get big scholarships at great schools. I wouldn't waste my time with a school like Wayne but I'm not you.

User avatar
Rigo
Posts: 11954
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:58 pm

Definitely retake. A 165 would get you a very sizable ND scholarship. They're pretty notorious for not giving out full rides though. They think they're above scholarship negotiation for some reason.
Once you get above a 165, Michigan starts being in play too.

anonymousposter
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:21 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby anonymousposter » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:03 am

Dirigo wrote:Definitely retake. A 165 would get you a very sizable ND scholarship. They're pretty notorious for not giving out full rides though. They think they're above scholarship negotiation for some reason.
Once you get above a 165, Michigan starts being in play too.


It would be in play but of course close to full price.

User avatar
Rigo
Posts: 11954
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby Rigo » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:11 am

anonymousposter wrote:
Dirigo wrote:Definitely retake. A 165 would get you a very sizable ND scholarship. They're pretty notorious for not giving out full rides though. They think they're above scholarship negotiation for some reason.
Once you get above a 165, Michigan starts being in play too.

It would be in play but of course close to full price.

True, but it's much better than ND full-price. The point is: retake.

Also consider shooting Illinois (UIUC) an app. Its outcomes are on par with ND, yet they're giving out full rides to 162's as they try to buy a 162+ median. With that GPA and a 161, you may even get serious money as is. Retake for a fully, of course.

User avatar
downbeat14
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:00 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby downbeat14 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:30 am

.
Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Attax
Posts: 3589
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:59 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby Attax » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:49 am

Retake. Wayne isn't even worth it if free IMO. ND isn't worth it at sticker. Retaking is the best option.

User avatar
jw316
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:57 pm

anonymousposter wrote:I thank all of you. But final question is would I really be making a bad decision at wayne if I 100% want to stay in michigan? I would have no debt.


1.) What do you think you want to do after law school?
2.) What are your views on debt—is it more important for you to go to a school that's higher ranked, or to walk away with your J.D. and the least amount of student loan debt possible?

I'm not going to say Wayne is a great school but a lot of posters probably don't realize that it does tend to place well in the state of Michigan. Obviously U of Michigan is the best law school in the state with the best outcomes and that's why many posters are suggesting that—but for someone who KNOWS they want to practice in Michigan/stay in Michigan then Wayne isn't necessarily a bad idea. It just depends on what you want to do AFTER Wayne.

For instance, if it's a federal clerkship or something like that then I'd say definitely don't go, study and retake for U of Michigan, apply early and to some of UofM's peer schools even though you want to stay in Michigan just to try to negotiate scholarships, etc.

But for someone who KNOWS they want to STAY in Michigan, Wayne with no debt could be a good idea depending on what you want to do after school. And if Wayne is right for you/your career goals then retaking has little benefit...what are they going to do? Increase your full ride offer to a full ride with bonus points? I get that TLS is T14 or bust—and for Big Law and other jobs it's certainly advisable, but that mentality doesn't apply to everyone since it's very dependent on career goals.

To be clear this is coming from someone who lives about a mile away from Wayne (if that), and although personally I'm not staying in Michigan nor planning to practice here and will be targeting the T6/T14, I just want to give you some real advice on your particular situation vs people who aren't familiar with the legal market in this state and who just look at Wayne's scores on LST and go "lolol wut such TTTTT don't go even with a full ride"

Homework: If you're thinking you want to go to a firm after graduation, take a look at some Michigan firms who have the practice area that you think you want to go into. Look at where their associates/partners went to school. Count how many times you see Wayne State. If you aren't going to a firm after graduation then do the same for other positions in Detroit like the prosecutors office, etc. and count how many times you see someone with a Wayne State J.D. I know it's just a correlation but clearly Wayne State grads are getting those positions and they aren't special snowflakes.

Frankly, U of Michigan sends so many people to New York/Chicago/Cali that I'd probably wager there are more Wayne State grads actually practicing in Michigan.
Last edited by jw316 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Hutz_and_Goodman
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:42 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:59 pm

Not only will a retake help you with ND, but every indication is that the law school admissions and job prospects are getting better (so not much worry about taking 1-2 years to work, study LSAT).

BigZuck
Posts: 10884
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:39 pm

jw316 wrote:
anonymousposter wrote:I thank all of you. But final question is would I really be making a bad decision at wayne if I 100% want to stay in michigan? I would have no debt.


1.) What do you think you want to do after law school?
2.) What are your views on debt—is it more important for you to go to a school that's higher ranked, or to walk away with your J.D. and the least amount of student loan debt possible?

I'm not going to say Wayne is a great school but a lot of posters probably don't realize that it does tend to place well in the state of Michigan. Obviously U of Michigan is the best law school in the state with the best outcomes and that's why many posters are suggesting that—but for someone who KNOWS they want to practice in Michigan/stay in Michigan then Wayne isn't necessarily a bad idea. It just depends on what you want to do AFTER Wayne.

For instance, if it's a federal clerkship or something like that then I'd say definitely don't go, study and retake for U of Michigan, apply early and to some of UofM's peer schools even though you want to stay in Michigan just to try to negotiate scholarships, etc.

But for someone who KNOWS they want to STAY in Michigan, Wayne with no debt could be a good idea depending on what you want to do after school. And if Wayne is right for you/your career goals then retaking has little benefit...what are they going to do? Increase your full ride offer to a full ride with bonus points? I get that TLS is T14 or bust—and for Big Law and other jobs it's certainly advisable, but that mentality doesn't apply to everyone since it's very dependent on career goals.

To be clear this is coming from someone who lives about a mile away from Wayne (if that), and although personally I'm not staying in Michigan nor planning to practice here and will be targeting the T6/T14, I just want to give you some real advice on your particular situation vs people who aren't familiar with the legal market in this state and who just look at Wayne's scores on LST and go "lolol wut such TTTTT don't go even with a full ride"

Homework: If you're thinking you want to go to a firm after graduation, take a look at some Michigan firms who have the practice area that you think you want to go into. Look at where their associates/partners went to school. Count how many times you see Wayne State. If you aren't going to a firm after graduation then do the same for other positions in Detroit like the prosecutors office, etc. and count how many times you see someone with a Wayne State J.D. I know it's just a correlation but clearly Wayne State grads are getting those positions and they aren't special snowflakes.

Frankly, U of Michigan sends so many people to New York/Chicago/Cali that I'd probably wager there are more Wayne State grads actually practicing in Michigan.


Less than half of recent grads get lawyer jobs. Where partners went to school is an indication of old job placement, not recent job placement. Plus, survivor bias.

I mean, it might be ok under really specific circumstances (a BURNING desire to work in their family's practice and they have a full ride) but I think you're painting way too rosy of a picture. And it's not a place that someone with a 3.8 should settle on, IMO

User avatar
jw316
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:01 pm

BigZuck wrote:
jw316 wrote:
anonymousposter wrote:I thank all of you. But final question is would I really be making a bad decision at wayne if I 100% want to stay in michigan? I would have no debt.


1.) What do you think you want to do after law school?
2.) What are your views on debt—is it more important for you to go to a school that's higher ranked, or to walk away with your J.D. and the least amount of student loan debt possible?

I'm not going to say Wayne is a great school but a lot of posters probably don't realize that it does tend to place well in the state of Michigan. Obviously U of Michigan is the best law school in the state with the best outcomes and that's why many posters are suggesting that—but for someone who KNOWS they want to practice in Michigan/stay in Michigan then Wayne isn't necessarily a bad idea. It just depends on what you want to do AFTER Wayne.

For instance, if it's a federal clerkship or something like that then I'd say definitely don't go, study and retake for U of Michigan, apply early and to some of UofM's peer schools even though you want to stay in Michigan just to try to negotiate scholarships, etc.

But for someone who KNOWS they want to STAY in Michigan, Wayne with no debt could be a good idea depending on what you want to do after school. And if Wayne is right for you/your career goals then retaking has little benefit...what are they going to do? Increase your full ride offer to a full ride with bonus points? I get that TLS is T14 or bust—and for Big Law and other jobs it's certainly advisable, but that mentality doesn't apply to everyone since it's very dependent on career goals.

To be clear this is coming from someone who lives about a mile away from Wayne (if that), and although personally I'm not staying in Michigan nor planning to practice here and will be targeting the T6/T14, I just want to give you some real advice on your particular situation vs people who aren't familiar with the legal market in this state and who just look at Wayne's scores on LST and go "lolol wut such TTTTT don't go even with a full ride"

Homework: If you're thinking you want to go to a firm after graduation, take a look at some Michigan firms who have the practice area that you think you want to go into. Look at where their associates/partners went to school. Count how many times you see Wayne State. If you aren't going to a firm after graduation then do the same for other positions in Detroit like the prosecutors office, etc. and count how many times you see someone with a Wayne State J.D. I know it's just a correlation but clearly Wayne State grads are getting those positions and they aren't special snowflakes.

Frankly, U of Michigan sends so many people to New York/Chicago/Cali that I'd probably wager there are more Wayne State grads actually practicing in Michigan.


Less than half of recent grads get lawyer jobs. Where partners went to school is an indication of old job placement, not recent job placement. Plus, survivor bias.

I mean, it might be ok under really specific circumstances (a BURNING desire to work in their family's practice and they have a full ride) but I think you're painting way too rosy of a picture. And it's not a place that someone with a 3.8 should settle on, IMO


K.

Where are you from and have you looked into the legal market in Michigan? Because given the full ride at Wayne, I'm very curious what other schools you'd tell OP to consider if OP is "100% set on practicing in Michigan." Again, still dependent on OP's goals but if you're at all familiar with this state and the legal market I really don't think you'd be saying what you are.

Again I'm someone who for my own career goals would never consider Wayne or anywhere in Michigan other than UofM, because for me I would have zero chance of doing what I'd like to. But that doesn't mean it's T14 or bust for everyone like TLS ALWAYS says.
Last edited by jw316 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheSpanishMain
Posts: 4149
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:08 pm

I'm from Michigan and I don't think I'd go anywhere in the state other than U of M. It's not because of some TLS hivemind "NYC BIGLAW OR BUST BRO" mentality. I get that some people want to stay in Michigan and work in a small firm. But Wayne/UDM/Michigan State people just aren't getting jobs. Not just missing out on BigLaw/federal clerkships. They're just not reliably getting any JD required job. Michigan just doesn't have a strong regional. It has a T14 and a long slide to garbage.

User avatar
jw316
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:11 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:I'm from Michigan and I don't think I'd go anywhere other than U of M. It's not because of some TLS hivemind "NYC BIGLAW OR BUST BRO" mentality. I get that some people want to stay in Michigan and work in a small firm. But Wayne/UDM/Michigan State people just aren't getting jobs. Not just missing out on BigLaw/federal clerkships. They're just not reliably getting any JD required job.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true. If they aren't getting jobs and the majority of the class from UofM leaves the state every year to take the Illinois/New York/Cali bar then who is getting the JD required jobs in metro-Detroit? Cooley grads? No.

To clarify I do have friends that had difficulty finding jobs from all three of those schools, but it was stupid shit like wanting Proskauer Rose with below median grades.
Last edited by jw316 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
Posts: 10884
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:14 pm

Again:

BigZuck wrote:
anonymousposter wrote:I thank all of you. But final question is would I really be making a bad decision at wayne if I 100% want to stay in michigan? I would have no debt.


Check out http://www.lawschooltransparency.com. If that's acceptable to you then go for it

The LSAT is so learnable and your GPA so high that you could get big scholarships at great schools. I wouldn't waste my time with a school like Wayne but I'm not you.


If you're someone with vague "wanna go to law school" aspirations, I wouldn't just settle for a school like Wayne State when you have a GPA that can get you into Harvard. At least give yourself a fighting chance and retake the LSAT

I'm not T14 or bust. If Wayne was a strong regional like, say, UT or UCLA it might be different (although, still, I'd say try to get into Michigan). But it's not. It's a mediocre regional in a state full of mediocre regionals.

I mean, you only live once, so if someone wants what Wayne can give them then go for it. I wouldn't just sign myself up to go though with so much potential left on the table

User avatar
jw316
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby jw316 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:18 pm

BigZuck wrote:Again:

BigZuck wrote:
anonymousposter wrote:I thank all of you. But final question is would I really be making a bad decision at wayne if I 100% want to stay in michigan? I would have no debt.


Check out http://www.lawschooltransparency.com. If that's acceptable to you then go for it

The LSAT is so learnable and your GPA so high that you could get big scholarships at great schools. I wouldn't waste my time with a school like Wayne but I'm not you.


If you're someone with vague "wanna go to law school" aspirations, I wouldn't just settle for a school like Wayne State when you have a GPA that can get you into Harvard. At least give yourself a fighting chance and retake the LSAT

I'm not T14 or bust. If Wayne was a strong regional like, say, UT or UCLA it might be different (although, still, I'd say try to get into Michigan). But it's not. It's a mediocre regional in a state full of mediocre regionals.

I mean, you only live once, so if someone wants what Wayne can give them then go for it. I wouldn't just sign myself up to go though with so much potential left on the table


So pay for Harvard even though you want to stay in Michigan? Again depends on OPs goals and they haven't chimed in, but if OP wants small/mid law or something like that (assuming they do or else Wayne wouldn't have been in the convo to begin with) then that makes no sense. Take on sticker debt vs a full ride at Wayne when you know you just want to come back to Michigan.....like what...??

You also didn't answer my question: what schools would you suggest OP look into if they want to remain in Michigan? Because I'm telling you outside of UofM it's exactly what you said, the midwest is full of medicore regional schools, Wayne just so happens to kick ass in Detroit/Michigan.

Objectively and personally I think it's a terrible school because for my goals it would be career suicide. But again if OP just wants a job in small law and wants to go to Tigers games/Wings games and have a life that doesn't revolve around big law and billable hours then yes Wayne State on a full ride IS a great option. Period.

User avatar
TheSpanishMain
Posts: 4149
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: Notre Dame (no money) vs Wayne (full ride)

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:19 pm

jw316 wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:I'm from Michigan and I don't think I'd go anywhere other than U of M. It's not because of some TLS hivemind "NYC BIGLAW OR BUST BRO" mentality. I get that some people want to stay in Michigan and work in a small firm. But Wayne/UDM/Michigan State people just aren't getting jobs. Not just missing out on BigLaw/federal clerkships. They're just not reliably getting any JD required job.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true. If they aren't getting jobs and the majority of the class from UofM leaves the state every year to take the Illinois/New York/Cali bar then who is getting the JD required jobs in metro-Detroit? Cooley grads? No.

To clarify I do have friends that had difficulty finding jobs from all three of those schools, but it was stupid shit like wanting Proskauer Rose with below median grades.


To be fair I haven't lived in Michigan in almost a decade, so you may well be right. But I assumed that Wayne/UDM/MSU grads were getting the majority of jobs in metro-Detroit. I also assumed that there aren't a lot of those jobs to begin with.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: proteinshake, Specter1389, SweetTort and 1 guest