Reminder: Sticker debt at Columbia Law School is $325,000 Forum

[DoveBodyWash]

Someone needs to explain to me why law school is so much though? I know a ton of responses would be "if it was cheap, everyone would do it just for the $$ and status" but law tuition is literally triple UG tuition. Is it similar for Med School? I don't think its that substantial for grad school in general. Law schools seem to make a killing. Theoretically, at a school like UT, it would take 3 in state UG students to equal the cost of tuition of one law school student. That just blows my mind.

faculty salaries are the biggest overhead cost. Law schools are driven by prestige, which is largely determined by academic research of the faculty (this is the peer reputation metric that goes into U.S. News Ranking). So schools essentially get into bidding wars for the best academics. And law schools were traditionally cash cows for their parent universities, so law schools need to bring in more revenue to subsidize the other departments and programs

If law schools bring in so much money, then why wouldn't every UG establish one? Seems to be profitable pretty much everywhere

dunno why every UG didn't start one during the boom years, but a ton did. It's not as profitable now though

[fats provolone]

Because people will pay it. If Columbia wasn't filling it's seats it would get cheaper. Not gonna change until people with sticker t14 admits start going to free regionals.

pay*

[PeanutsNJam]

honest question for y'all, if you had 325k in the bank, would you pay sticker for Columbia or still go to a free regional/half-off lower T14?

[DoveBodyWash]

honest question for y'all, if you had 325k in the bank, would you pay sticker for Columbia or still go to a free regional/half-off lower T14?

If i had 325k liquid then i probably wouldn't go to law school at all. Find other ways to invest/make money off of it. Or just spend it until it's all gone then take LSAT lol

But if i HAD to answer your question, then i think i'd just go to a half-off lower T14

[ilikebaseball]

honest question for y'all, if you had 325k in the bank, would you pay sticker for Columbia or still go to a free regional/half-off lower T14?

invest it all into building an app-centered device that is handy around the house, go on shark tank, make a deal with cubez, disappoint him and everyone around me, come back on TLS

[Johann]

Go to law school free and invest the 325.

[cotiger]

If I had $325k liquid, I'd feel pretty silly if in three years I only had $25k and a piece of paper.

[utahraptor]

honest question for y'all, if you had 325k in the bank, would you pay sticker for Columbia or still go to a free regional/half-off lower T14?

half-off lower T14

the amount of money you have in the bank shouldn't change your logic tons—if it's stupid to take out the loans, it's (almost) as stupid to blow it on the cost of attendance

if you had cash on hand, you wouldn't have to pay interest, and you're going to have to pay for living expenses either way—half off would mean what, 80k is going to tuition? The 80k worth of insurance goes much farther at the lower T-14 than it does at the jump up to Columbia, but I'd wager that the 80k worth of insurance is worth it

[fats provolone]

no id say there's a pretty big difference. cash can be used for anything. the govt only showers you in loan money if you go to school.

[utahraptor]

no id say there's a pretty big difference. cash can be used for anything. the govt only showers you in loan money if you go to school.

i worded it poorly but i think you understand

do you disagree with the second half? just wondering.

[fats provolone]

no id say there's a pretty big difference. cash can be used for anything. the govt only showers you in loan money if you go to school.

i worded it poorly but i think you understand

do you disagree with the second half? just wondering.

if i had 325k in cash there's zero chance im going to law school.

but yea if i had to i would go to uva half off vs columbia sticker or w/e. but sticker price at any law school is just a nightmare that I am currently living.

[Johann]

honest question for y'all, if you had 325k in the bank, would you pay sticker for Columbia or still go to a free regional/half-off lower T14?

half-off lower T14

the amount of money you have in the bank shouldn't change your logic tons—if it's stupid to take out the loans, it's (almost) as stupid to blow it on the cost of attendance

if you had cash on hand, you wouldn't have to pay interest, and you're going to have to pay for living expenses either way—half off would mean what, 80k is going to tuition? The 80k worth of insurance goes much farther at the lower T-14 than it does at the jump up to Columbia, but I'd wager that the 80k worth of insurance is worth it

if it's stupid to take out loans that greatly minimize the downside risk, its way more stupid to blow cash on the COA. i would probably never take out sticker loans for any t-14(just me) but i would be even less likely to ever pay a dollar of my own money for sticker (or any legal education) until i graduated with the programs set up today. basically i would take out $325k in loans to attend columbia even if i could pay the 325k with my cash stash.

[utahraptor]

how much added downside insurance are you buying by paying for origination fees, interest, &c.

fd's point about not going to law school is valid

I'm less sold on the idea that the existence of PSLF/PAYE/whatever else makes borrowing the money a better option, especially if you assume that people can drop out if they're in a bad place after the first semester/first year

[schmelling]

Post removed.

[MidwestLifer]

The COA is what is off here. 180k in tuition roughly. That leaves 145k in 3 years of living expenses. I am from the NY metro area and I can say comfortably that while it can very easily hit that number, you could probably shave roughly 45k off of it if you are mindful of your spending.

This is true if you completely ignore tuition raises and interest...

[Paul Campos]

Some fun facts about Columbia Law School:

Percentage of students paying sticker last year: 57

Percentage of students paying at least $30,000 per year in tuition: 95 (only five per cent of CLS students had scholarships covering half or more of tuition).

Percentage of 2013 CLS graduates who graduated with no law school debt: 25

Full-time faculty in 2011: 129

Full-time faculty in 2014: 182

(The difference between the last two numbers is hard to believe but they're from CLS's 2014 509 disclosures FWIW).

[fats provolone]

how much added downside insurance are you buying by paying for origination fees, interest, &c.

fd's point about not going to law school is valid

I'm less sold on the idea that the existence of PSLF/PAYE/whatever else makes borrowing the money a better option, especially if you assume that people can drop out if they're in a bad place after the first semester/first year

i dunno PAYE is pretty sweet. i have about 300k and i would probably legit kill myself if it weren't for PAYE. dropping out after first year is harder than it sounds, too. job market is brutal as it is and the resume gap/weirdness of 1 yr law school hurts a lot.

i wonder what I'd do if i had 300k cash right now. pay off my loans? or buy a house or something and just ride PAYE till I die? not sure honestly.

[Johann]

im sitting on a sum of money that is 20% of my loans while doing PAYE. i know exactly what i would do. also, if you die, your loans are discharged while your assets go to your loved ones. i dont even have a kid, but that would throw this into whack even more. the only real battle here is people's hatred of being in debt (which sucks dont get me wrong, but having under 10k of cash/assets to your name is bum status)

[fats provolone]

yea i would probably do the same. im making more now (and the next 3-4 yrs) than i probably ever will again for the rest of my life. may as well save up as much as i can and just give up 10% of my income for the rest of my life. i can get a VA loan so i can probably still buy a house even w/ megadebt

[Tiago Splitter]

PAYE til I die literally then full forgiveness

[fats provolone]

how much proof of death do they require? jw

[utahraptor]

yeah that all makes sense to me

I don't plan on doing the PAYE thing, but I'm going to avoid refinancing my loans so I can stay eligible. And I guess the dropping out thing would be hard. I promised myself I would drop out if I got bad grades (I get that would be kinda silly in my situation now) but think understand that we're not really rational actors here.

@ Professor Campos, Thank you for your post. I think it would interesting to see how any of the full-time CLS factory are teaching full loads. I'd expect that it's a fraction of the number employed.

[fats provolone]

well yea it's hard to actually drop out too. but i mean it's also hard to get back on a career track after dropping out.

[utahraptor]

I really should have become an electrician.

[Mal Reynolds]

Is PAYE a good idea for any debt load? Or is there a lower bound to where you should just repay under the standard plan.

I think I've seen this discussed before but I'm can't totally remember.