Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

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Rigo
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby Rigo » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:53 pm

We're getting too bogged down in debating what makes a school shitty or not, when we should be encouraging OP to avoid having to make this lose-lose situation through retaking the LSAT. How about don't go to any law school that has a bad reputation? That applies to both Vermont and possibly GWU, but especially Vermont.

Why can't you/won't you retake, OP? Don't be a fool.
Get over a 166 and--depending on GPA--you can get GWU for free via ED.

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dardardelight
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby dardardelight » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:02 pm

I just had my third take in Dec-- I have a score that gives me a good shot at gtown too, assuming I apply ED. And GW's ED deadline has passed already, and my 3.3 gpa wouldn't give me a shot at good $$ unless I get a 168/9+, at least

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pattonthicke
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby pattonthicke » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:16 pm

dardardelight wrote:I'd need to be one of the top student's for sure-- but I'd rather take top 10% at vls than top 45% at GW. I'd have a proven track record for passion in the field too. Is there any way I can find out the percentage of acceptances vs denials for each school and their applicants for EPA / DOE / FERC?


OP can you explain why you believe the bolded is true? I think maybe if you were comparing like a top 50 school to GW this may be true, but this isnt true for Vermont (even with their high specialty ranking in the field you want to enter, lol). Top half at GW will be better for your goals. And by better, I mean you go from like a 0.0% to 0.2% chance of achieving your goals.

dardardelight wrote:The thing is, the people reviewing my application to a position at EPA aren't going to immediately throw the app away if they see VLS, because they know it's rep for what it's known for.


I think you are putting to much weight in this speciality bullcrap (despite the fact that you acknowledge this in your first post, you continue to act like this shit will matter a great deal). You presume, without a shred of evidence, that these agencies will prefer to have someone with a demonstrated interest in the field like you vs. someone with top grades from a top school. They dont. I have seen regulatory biglaw friends go work for fed government after only working on one or two assignments in that particular field, because of their pedigree/biglaw experience. That said this is probably a moot point because these jobs are scarce enough that the agencies will have a resume with experience equal to yours PLUS they went to a better school.

dardardelight wrote:I just had my third take in Dec-- I have a score that gives me a good shot at gtown too, assuming I apply ED. And GW's ED deadline has passed already, and my 3.3 gpa wouldn't give me a shot at good $$ unless I get a 168/9+, at least


You seem committed to going to law school next year no matter what, even if you dont have any current options that will allow you to achieve your goals. Please dont do this. Law school isnt going anywhere. If you are really this passionate about working in this field, then you need to get a better lsat so you can actually have a legitimate shot at your goals. But asking us to advise on GW sticker vs. Vermont for free (also nothing is free, you still lose 3 years of making money) is like asking if we rather be stranded on a island with no food, water and shelter or get our left leg chopped off. I dont want to do neither.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:05 pm

dardardelight wrote:Is there any way I can find out the percentage of acceptances vs denials for each school and their applicants for EPA / DOE / FERC? I'd be curious to measure those at vls against like washu/gw, t 30's.

While it would be great to have this info, no, there's absolutely no way to know something like this. I don't think schools even (can) track it, and the agencies aren't going to put that out there.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:53 pm

pretty ridiculous that everyone in this thread is acting like OP would be just any other VLS student. He speaks chines fluently. It's pretty to safe to say that he will be the only one with this skill at VLS to be fluent in chinese and english. Also has a masters and background expereince in this area.

If he got top 10% at VLS, he'd be almost a lock for his dream job. Worst case scenario, he has a free law degree and is bilingual and will fall on his feet somehow. There is no downside to chase your dream and unlimited upside. Typical TLS bullshittery here.

Go to law school OP.

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dardardelight
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby dardardelight » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:16 pm

Thanks for the back-up, Johann. Yeah, I'm not sitting out another 3 years. I think what I need to do is reach out to some contacts, make some emails to people affiliated with EPA/VLS and try and gauge what rank/coursework/extracurriculars I'd need to get the position of clerkship ---> attorney position at EPA/DOE's general councel.

I think the hardest part is convincing my parents that VLS is a better option for me than GW sticker, given that they'd probably rather pay 250,000 and have me go to GW.

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Rigo
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby Rigo » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:34 pm

Oh god.

Nomo
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby Nomo » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:57 pm

OP will not be a lock for his dream job if he is top 10% at GW, much less Vermont. OP could be top 10% at Georgetown and he still wouldn't be a lock for his dream job. He could go to Yale and he still wouldn't be a lock. There just aren't that many lawyers at DOE/EPA working on China issues.

OP needs a backup plan.

That said, Vermont isn't necessarily a bad idea. It's free. OP is likely to find legal work coming from Vermont. There is a very good chance that his job will be in small law, and there is nothing wrong with that when you spent $0 on law school. I've even met lawyers working at small firms for small law wages doing environmental work for small companies and tribes. It can be a fulfilling career if you're not saddled with debt. He could also use his Chinese skills to do immigration work for Chinese clients. But OP needs to be ok with those types of outcomes before he goes to law school.

mvp99
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby mvp99 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:08 pm

Nomo wrote:But OP needs to be ok with those types of outcomes before he goes to law school.


One possible issue with that is that OP will convince him/herself that those outcomes are OK while rationalizing in the back of his/her mind that he/she will certainly get DOE/EPA.

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BankruptMe
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby BankruptMe » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:09 pm

Is there not an in-between school that you could get a scholarship at?

There is a big gap between Vermont and GW

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dardardelight
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby dardardelight » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:17 pm

yeah, I'm going to research some other options. I'm still waiting on another lsat score, so all of this is still very preliminary. Thanks for all the help so far, everyone

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:18 pm

Vermont is definitely one of the worst law schools in the country. What else would be worst? And what metrics are you using?

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jingosaur
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby jingosaur » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:28 pm

OP, have you ever looked for an actual professional job before?

In order to have a CHANCE at a legal job that someone would characterize as "good" you have to be around the top 10% at VLS. Even then you have to send out a few hundred applications to places where you'd want to work. Of those hundreds of applications, only like 15 or so will ask you to interview and then of those, you're lucky if you get 2 offers. About 6-10 of those 200-300 applications will be for environmental law jobs. You would have very little chance at getting one of those jobs. If you're in the top 50% of VLS, you'll have a shot at ANY job as a lawyer. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll be doing something that is in a field you wanted to get into and a salary isn't necessarily guaranteed.

lapolicia
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby lapolicia » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:53 pm

My year at my CCN school, we had literally two people go on the agencies you mentioned. Both had years of work experience in the environmental field and advanced degrees in environmental science. Both were also near the top of the class in law school. We had many many more than two people come into the school interested in the kind of jobs you mentioned. Other than these two, they all ended up doing biglaw. You not only need top grades from a top school for these jobs, you also need real demonstrated interest. These jobs are even harder to get than DOJ honors, they just attract a different group of applicants. It's true that there are Vermont grads working at the EPA, but they mostly got those jobs years ago when it was a much less competitive field.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby shifty_eyed » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:45 pm

He does have a back up plan, guys.
dardardelight wrote:the back-up plan would be doing ngo work in China or like the NRDC, env def. fund -- just gruntwork policy stuff I guess, but that is pretty interesting ...

03152016
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby 03152016 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:29 pm

Image

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Rigo
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby Rigo » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:35 pm

Lulz. Nice job, Brut.

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dardardelight
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby dardardelight » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:02 am

Thanks for all the tremendous concern all of you seem to have in my decision. I'm not interested in defending myself to TLS or looking for any justification. I just wanted some people to share their opinions and give me further insight.

FSK
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby FSK » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:04 am

You're not special. You need to retake like everyone else if you want to have a reasonable shot at your desire career. Legal employment is terrible and getting worse. Sorry.

/thread

Wingtip88
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby Wingtip88 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:07 am

dardardelight wrote:FYI -- my parents are willing to foot the bill. But I know that after they do, they'll give me so much shit for wanting to do gov work in light of all the debt. And they'll passive-aggressively force me into the biglaw direction / make me feel guilty. If I go to Vermont, I will be liberated


You would willingly attend a law school with horrendous job prospects versus a school with significantly better job prospects, at equal cost, on the basis that it will "liberate" you from the emotional oppression that you may encounter from your parents for failing to live up to some expectation that you assume they will have of you?

You might have some personal issues that you need to work through. Limiting your choices to these two particular schools is entirely nonsensical, but if you had an opportunity to attend GW for free - "my parents are willing to foot the bill" - this is irrefutably the better of the two options, exclusive of any attempt to validate Vermont that you manage to invent in your head.

BigZuck
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby BigZuck » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:48 am

Johann has rapidly risen to my favorite on topic troll.

mvp99
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby mvp99 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:12 am

Brut wrote:Image


LMAO

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby JohannDeMann » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:22 am

Wingtip88 wrote:
dardardelight wrote:FYI -- my parents are willing to foot the bill. But I know that after they do, they'll give me so much shit for wanting to do gov work in light of all the debt. And they'll passive-aggressively force me into the biglaw direction / make me feel guilty. If I go to Vermont, I will be liberated


You would willingly attend a law school with horrendous job prospects versus a school with significantly better job prospects, at equal cost, on the basis that it will "liberate" you from the emotional oppression that you may encounter from your parents for failing to live up to some expectation that you assume they will have of you?

You might have some personal issues that you need to work through. Limiting your choices to these two particular schools is entirely nonsensical, but if you had an opportunity to attend GW for free - "my parents are willing to foot the bill" - this is irrefutably the better of the two options, exclusive of any attempt to validate Vermont that you manage to invent in your head.


This all depends on the type of relationship you have with your parents. My parents offered to pay for my school and I took money and borrowed the rest on loans at a TTT not to be dependent on them. It's worked out well and we have a good relationship today probably partly due to that fact.

If OP gets into Gtown, that's a game changer. But GW really isnt anything special and the downside is much larger than at Vermont. Steeper competition at GW. You can walk into Vermont and decide to get top 20% at a minimum just on work ethic alone. That's the type of school VLS is. I just think OP should give it a shot at Vermont and if it doesnt work out, OP has no debt or tiny debt PAYE eligible and free to leave law/no pressure to take a job that's not wanted. The worst case scenario here is pretty bright. GW is a potential disaster if OP doesnt get ideal job and parents spent 150-200k and want OP to do something he doesn't want to do. Family problems, job problems, etc.

BigZuck wrote:Johann has rapidly risen to my favorite on topic troll.

Im not trying to troll you or other 0Ls. Im trying to give advice as someone who has seen the process play out with a long term view point now that I am several years removed from law school at a TTT. I selectively read poster's dilemmas and when I think they are being misled by the hivemind I want to give them confidence that investing in yourself may be the right decision/risk to take. If you can't envision a scenario you would advise someone to go to law school for free, then I think your advice is pretty shortsighted as well. Quick internet research will show you a number of recent VLS grads working at the EPA. Im confident OP will be one of the best candidates from that school and one of the first ones to get a job of choice. people arent walking in to VLS with resumes similar to OP (hint full scholly)

BigZuck
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby BigZuck » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:28 am

JohannDeMann wrote:Im not trying to troll


Disagree, your advice is insane (sometimes questionably legal) and you are scarily erratic. Sometimes it seems like you might be mentally ill.

I dig it man.

timbs4339
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Re: Vermont Law (full-ride) vs. GW sticker

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:54 am

What are the stips on the scholly?

This is kind of troubling. Not only are you falling into the typical fallacy of assuming you can predict your 1L grades based on your LSAT score, you still really haven't answered the question of whether you'd be happy doing the type of work the lawyers from VLS do, small law work. You seem to be really interesting in more "big picture" stuff- a very prestigious fed agency and the always suspect "policy" category. Not so much in the nitty gritty of lawyering. That's a red flag with this slate of schools/scholly awards. You may want to seriously consider dropping out if you can't make the kind of grades you need to be competitive.

Aside from this, do you have full-time, long term work experience in the field? You alluded to having a prior background, but never actually said if you worked, did an internship, just did school, whatever. This is going to come off as insulting but it's the truth- degrees are like assholes right now, as a lot of JD holders find out the hard way. Anyone can keep getting letters next to their name. It's the people who actually have WE that stand out the most. And there are plenty of those people going to T14 or T30 schools who will also have good grades and who also want to work for EPA.

Saying "EPA honors is competitive but not as competitive as DOJ Honors so I'll have a better shot" is like being a HS baseball player and saying "the Cincinnati farm system isn't as competitive as the Yankees farm system so I'll have a better shot." Sure, it's not technically wrong, but you're misleading yourself- they are both really freaking competitive, and even if you get top 10% for Vermont you're still going to be competing with a lot of better candidates at much higher ranked schools who want the same few spots in the honors program.

It goes without saying that GW is out unless you can negotiate that up to full.




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