Where should I go? (URM)

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alexalva27
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Where should I go? (URM)

Postby alexalva27 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:52 pm

I'm having a tough time deciding where to apply since I know that URM's have vastly different chances when applying compared to others. I've checked Lawschoolnumbers however the info on URM admissions on that site seems to be all over the place leading me to believe it's inconsistent.

A little about me:
I'm a white Hispanic male (dual American & Colombian citizenship - grandparents from Spain).
3.2 GPA from a regional private university (B.S. in Business Management)
158-160 LSAT (took the Dec. one so no results yet but my practice exams put me about there - will retake in February)
2 years of work experience in finance including a short stint on Wall Street & currently working in the finance department of a fortune 500 company
Semester of study abroad in Spain and lived in Colombia for 2 years as a child (but born in the U.S.)
President of the UNA-USA chapter at my university (1 year)

Basically I'm looking for a school that will help me get a decent job although not necessarily Big Law. Worst case scenario I want to at least be able to get a job working in the legal department in a large company (for example my current company). I WILL NOT pay sticker price anywhere, although 50% scholly is good for me since I have no undergrad debt and my parents have agreed to help me with around $500 per month. I want to study in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic. What schools should I apply to and how good are my chances at getting in with some money?

If anyone could provide me some insight about the following schools that would be great!
Fordham, Rutgers, Cardozo, Brooklyn Law, Boston U., Boston College, Northeastern, and if you can think of any more please feel free to make a suggestion.

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Puffin
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby Puffin » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:34 pm

If you're employed in finance at an F500 don't go to law school; but all of those schools are relatively poor employment-wise and as a URM you should consider retaking for the t-14 if your heart is set on law school. Any reason to prefer law school to finance if you're not overtly interested in big law and you already have what seems to be a stable job? In-house jobs anecdotally are post-big law experience gigs.

Paul Campos
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:42 pm

You're not the kind of URM that counts. Hispanics only get a significant boost if they're Mexican-American or Puerto Rican. Your current projected numbers are nowhere good enough for it to make sense for you to apply to law school at this time, especially given that you have a real job.

alexalva27
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby alexalva27 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:19 pm

Thing is my job is only an entry-level job around (40k a year) and I'm at the type of company where it literally takes forever to move up. They have nice benefits and all (and some good discounts for their products/services) but many of my coworkers have been there 5 or 6 years (including one that's been there around 15 yrs) and they still have the same entry-level position with a similar salary. Realistically, if I crush it, it will take me like 3 yrs to get promoted to a 50k a year position and 10 yrs down the line I might be doing 80-90k per year (I'm 24 right now). Do you really think that choosing a full ride from let's say Rutgers (In state tuition + parental support) would be a worse choice than staying at my dead-end job?

I know the legal market is tough right now, but is it really that bad? If you were in my position what would you do? and what LSAT score would I need to make law school worth while?

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whitespider
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby whitespider » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:27 pm

Even if that were a good idea, you don't have a realistic shot at a full tuition scholly from Rutgers. You're well below the GPA median and only barely hovering above their LSAT median.

As Prof Campos said, you aren't a URM.

alexalva27
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby alexalva27 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:53 pm

Well I'm pretty sure I'll get some money from Rutgers and at 23k a year it's not expensive to begin with. So let's say a 50% scholly roughly, give or take a few percentage points, are my job prospects as a lawyer really that much worse than what I'm doing now?

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Rigo
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby Rigo » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:56 pm

I have friends at Rutgers. Prospects ain't pretty and it's very likely you'll waste three years only to end up with a $40k legal job.
And making $40k as a 24 year old and $80-$90k in your early 30's isn't as awful as you make it out to be.

Oh and you're definitely not getting a full ride or close to it with a 3.2 and a median-ish (for Rutgers) LSAT. Wait to see what your score is and then come back to us.
At the very least, retake if you're serious about pursuing law school.

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ballcaps
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby ballcaps » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:00 pm

about 30 seconds on lawschooltransparency.com reveal that, recently, anywhere between 20-50% of graduates from those schools were unemployed 9 months after graduating.

so, yeah, pretty bad. what exactly do you want to do with a j.d.?

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cc78
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby cc78 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:51 pm

alexalva27 wrote:Thing is my job is only an entry-level job around (40k a year) and I'm at the type of company where it literally takes forever to move up. They have nice benefits and all (and some good discounts for their products/services) but many of my coworkers have been there 5 or 6 years (including one that's been there around 15 yrs) and they still have the same entry-level position with a similar salary. Realistically, if I crush it, it will take me like 3 yrs to get promoted to a 50k a year position and 10 yrs down the line I might be doing 80-90k per year (I'm 24 right now). Do you really think that choosing a full ride from let's say Rutgers (In state tuition + parental support) would be a worse choice than staying at my dead-end job?

I know the legal market is tough right now, but is it really that bad? If you were in my position what would you do? and what LSAT score would I need to make law school worth while?


170 would begin the conversation, but I'd guess maybe even higher to get serious.

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mi-chan17
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby mi-chan17 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:17 am

Paul Campos wrote:You're not the kind of URM that counts. Hispanics only get a significant boost if they're Mexican-American or Puerto Rican. Your current projected numbers are nowhere good enough for it to make sense for you to apply to law school at this time, especially given that you have a real job.


As to the URM point, in my experience it depends. I'm mixed white-Hispanic, and I didn't include my family's country of origin even when asked aside from marking "Hispanic/Latino." At schools where they asked you to specify the country of origin, I was often treated as a regular white person (with a couple outliers). That said, many schools didn't ask, and just had a check box for "Hispanic." It was clear, based on the acceptances and money I saw from those schools, that I was treated as URM for their purposes.

That said, I think wait and retake is the credited response, especially since OP has a real job.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:09 pm

mi-chan17 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:You're not the kind of URM that counts. Hispanics only get a significant boost if they're Mexican-American or Puerto Rican. Your current projected numbers are nowhere good enough for it to make sense for you to apply to law school at this time, especially given that you have a real job.


As to the URM point, in my experience it depends. I'm mixed white-Hispanic, and I didn't include my family's country of origin even when asked aside from marking "Hispanic/Latino." At schools where they asked you to specify the country of origin, I was often treated as a regular white person (with a couple outliers). That said, many schools didn't ask, and just had a check box for "Hispanic." It was clear, based on the acceptances and money I saw from those schools, that I was treated as URM for their purposes.

That said, I think wait and retake is the credited response, especially since OP has a real job.


I think Campos is right. Not that it's dispositive, but I have several Argentinian and Colombian friends who are whiter than I am. There's a reason the latin american URM boost is restricted to PR and MX. You can write a diversity statement and bring an interesting perspective to the law school community, but you will not receive a URM boost for the purposes of admissions as a euro-descended dual citizens. I would run LSN and similar sites assuming the normal applicant pool.

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Kratos
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby Kratos » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:41 pm

alexalva27 wrote:Well I'm pretty sure I'll get some money from Rutgers and at 23k a year it's not expensive to begin with. So let's say a 50% scholly roughly, give or take a few percentage points, are my job prospects as a lawyer really that much worse than what I'm doing now?

go look for yourself on lawschooltransperency.com

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mi-chan17
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby mi-chan17 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:51 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
I think Campos is right. Not that it's dispositive, but I have several Argentinian and Colombian friends who are whiter than I am. There's a reason the latin american URM boost is restricted to PR and MX. You can write a diversity statement and bring an interesting perspective to the law school community, but you will not receive a URM boost for the purposes of admissions as a euro-descended dual citizens. I would run LSN and similar sites assuming the normal applicant pool.


I agree for any school that asks what "type" of Hispanic person you are, Campos is right. I agree OP should run numbers on LSN as though there will be no boost to be safe, as a result. I was just pointing out that some schools don't ask the applicant to specify country of origin, and at those schools they sometimes treat all Hispanic applicants the same.

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pancakes3
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:26 pm

OP should study for the CPA, or GMAT.

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hoos89
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby hoos89 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:20 pm

alexalva27 wrote:Thing is my job is only an entry-level job around (40k a year) and I'm at the type of company where it literally takes forever to move up. They have nice benefits and all (and some good discounts for their products/services) but many of my coworkers have been there 5 or 6 years (including one that's been there around 15 yrs) and they still have the same entry-level position with a similar salary. Realistically, if I crush it, it will take me like 3 yrs to get promoted to a 50k a year position and 10 yrs down the line I might be doing 80-90k per year (I'm 24 right now). Do you really think that choosing a full ride from let's say Rutgers (In state tuition + parental support) would be a worse choice than staying at my dead-end job?

I know the legal market is tough right now, but is it really that bad? If you were in my position what would you do? and what LSAT score would I need to make law school worth while?


Since when is a realistic chance to make twice as much as you do now in ten years a dead-end job? $80-90k at age 34 sounds like a pretty decent employment outcome, and attending Rutgers Law would probably make that way less likely to happen. Also, you should know that 1) typical non-biglaw salaries are around $40k, so you'd be making as much as you are now in 3 years (less your student loan payments), and 2) it's not easy to get an in-house legal job out of law school, and that is not a realistic fallback option. See: http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

alexalva27
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby alexalva27 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:29 pm

When I say that "if I crush it" I will get promoted in like 3 years it means that some of my coworkers have managed to do that but many have not (As I pointed out with the woman who has been there for 15 years). Maybe the top 30% in my position will get promoted. And when I say that I "might" make 80-90k per year by the time I'm 35 I mean that there are some people at my company that manage to do this, but again, we are talking maybe about 20%. What I'm trying to say is that I very deliberately put the words "if" & "might" in there because it is by no means certain that this will be my outcome, just that the possibility realistically exists. Kind of like saying that if you go to Rutgers, you might end up working in big law (10% do) but that is by no means the most probable outcome.

Let's just compare the average outcomes for both. So let's say the average lawyer out of Rutgers vs the average Joe working out of a cubicle at a major company. Who fares better?

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Rigo
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby Rigo » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:36 pm

I assure you that at least some of the people in this thread have excellent reading comprehension skills, so save the condescension.

But to answer your question, the cubicle job person who didn't go to Rutgers--on average--is better off better off than a Rutgers Law grad.
For someone who is so nitpicky about probability grammar, just retake the darn LSAT so a desirable outcome becomes more likely.

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hoos89
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby hoos89 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:37 pm

Just looking at the percentages and salaries you posted, the random Joe would be better off on average. Only 57% of Rutgers-Newark graduates in 2013 secured full time jobs as lawyers, with a median salary among that 57% of $52,000. Also, the COA at Rutgers in state is still ~$150,000 over three years (including interest), so add that debt on top of it and you would be making less than you are now even IF you were fortunate enough to land a job as a lawyer.

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Rigo
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby Rigo » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:43 pm

We're not advocating that you spend your entire life in a crappy, (supposedly) dead-end job. I get why you're frustrated and want something better for yourself, but Rutgers is not better. It is actually way more likely you'll end up unhappy and worse off than you started.
We're just telling you to actually get yourself in a position where the grass actually has a decent chance of being greener on the other side.

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Kratos
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Re: Where should I go? (URM)

Postby Kratos » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:07 pm

alexalva27 wrote:When I say that "if I crush it" I will get promoted in like 3 years it means that some of my coworkers have managed to do that but many have not (As I pointed out with the woman who has been there for 15 years). Maybe the top 30% in my position will get promoted. And when I say that I "might" make 80-90k per year by the time I'm 35 I mean that there are some people at my company that manage to do this, but again, we are talking maybe about 20%. What I'm trying to say is that I very deliberately put the words "if" & "might" in there because it is by no means certain that this will be my outcome, just that the possibility realistically exists. Kind of like saying that if you go to Rutgers, you might end up working in big law (10% do) but that is by no means the most probable outcome.

Let's just compare the average outcomes for both. So let's say the average lawyer out of Rutgers vs the average Joe working out of a cubicle at a major company. Who fares better?

Find yourself a better company then if they don't promote you. Median at Rutgers you're gonna struggle to find any legal job, except be in a bunch of debt you can't pay off.




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