T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:49 pm

I know, but this thread isn't about me. :roll:

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:27 pm

OP I think this thread will only be useful to you if you give some more specifics and then make a poll so people can help you

There are a lot of general T14 v. T30/40 w/ full scholarship threads out there, and the decision will turn on your specific situation. For instance, if you have SCOTUS clerk ambitions then T30 is insane. On the other side, if you don't have a trust fund/$$$ from parents then T14 at sticker is insane.

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Attax
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Attax » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:38 pm

If I was trapped in such an unrealistic dichotomy I'd go with the full tuition. Sure, I have less likely chances of getting biglaw, but I won't NEED biglaw. That's the difference for me. T14 at sticker = have to get biglaw. T30 on full there is no need, but still decent chances (depending on which school).

YMMV

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AT9
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby AT9 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:01 pm

I faced a similar situation, as do many applicants. Vandy with a 1/3 tuition scholly vs. T30/40 with like a 95% scholly. I'm only a 1L so time will tell if it was a good decision, but my thinking was that if I don't do well here, or find out I hate the practice of law, I can start from scratch with something else because my financial life isn't ruined. At Vandy, sure, I would have a significantly better shot at biglaw/fed clerkships and a better legal career. But if I finished bottom half of the class or something, I'd likely have a tough time paying off that debt (and if I hate practicing law, I'm pretty much stuck taking whatever I can).

I agree with the others that we need more info. Harvard sticker vs. Iowa full scholarship with no desire to practice in the midwest is different than Cornell at sticker vs. UGA at full with desire to stay in Georgia.

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jbagelboy
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:26 pm

Too many people ITT treating this as a genuine inquiry

Darascal you have a thread for yourself why not stay there so we can all appreciate you from a distance

mvp99
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby mvp99 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:37 pm

canadianbrother wrote:
DaRascal wrote:
canadianbrother wrote:It depends on what your goals are. If BigLaw is not what you want, the t30 is better no doubt. People love to say biglaw is overrated and lasts only 5 years, but after you can exist into great jobs with a better work life balance that are only attainable after a biglaw stint. If thats what you want the t14 is better.

But the real answer is retake. Unless you want rich parents.



Hmmmm.. maybe T14 at sticker is legit after all now that you put it that way.


You can live frugally and pay off sticker debt in 5years of biglaw. But did you really work that hard in life to get where you are and spend your 20s working biglaw hours and have 0 net worth to show for it after 5 years?

I didn't say it's a good idea, it's just a better idea than t30 if you want big law and big law exists. If my best option was CCN sticker I'd take it, but sticker at a 7-14 I'm definately retaking.


I would really like to see the numbers.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:41 pm

It's amazing that people are still stuck in the antiquated ideology of ANY law school in the top 14 being worth the full price. REGARDLESS of your goals NO top 14 is worth the full cost of attendance period. I really believe that, like myself when I took it on, do not understand the life changing/hindering decision that taking out massive student loan debt entails. Quite frankly, it is probably the worse decision that the average person could/is likely to make. In many ways it's probably just as bad as taking on a subprime mortgage if not worse.

And betting on biglaw is absurd even at most of the top 14. Quite frankly you will be LUCKY to pull median grades (something that isn't said enough on here and is absurdly pushed as the most likely/worst case scenario). If you do not you are in a world of trouble.

mvp99
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby mvp99 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:53 pm

BruceWayne wrote:It's amazing that people are still stuck in the antiquated ideology of ANY law school in the top 14 being worth the full price. REGARDLESS of your goals NO top 14 is worth the full cost of attendance period. I really believe that, like myself when I took it on, do not understand the life changing/hindering decision that taking out massive student loan debt entails. Quite frankly, it is probably the worse decision that the average person could/is likely to make. In many ways it's probably just as bad as taking on a subprime mortgage if not worse.

And betting on biglaw is absurd even at most of the top 14. Quite frankly you will be LUCKY to pull median grades (something that isn't said enough on here and is absurdly pushed as the most likely/worst case scenario). If you do not you are in a world of trouble.


To elaborate on the idea that there are some things that are in a sense out of your control during your 1L year... I know someone who skipped an exam question.... Shit happens and then you're screwed for the rest of your life in terms of debt

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:59 pm

"BruceWayne"


Dude, you don't sound like Bruce Wayne at all. Batman wouldn't whine like a baby about loans. :roll:



Btw, those are some great points though. Full ride is what it's all about. :mrgreen:

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Mr. Elshal » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:01 pm

mvp99 wrote:
canadianbrother wrote:
DaRascal wrote:
canadianbrother wrote:It depends on what your goals are. If BigLaw is not what you want, the t30 is better no doubt. People love to say biglaw is overrated and lasts only 5 years, but after you can exist into great jobs with a better work life balance that are only attainable after a biglaw stint. If thats what you want the t14 is better.

But the real answer is retake. Unless you want rich parents.



Hmmmm.. maybe T14 at sticker is legit after all now that you put it that way.


You can live frugally and pay off sticker debt in 5years of biglaw. But did you really work that hard in life to get where you are and spend your 20s working biglaw hours and have 0 net worth to show for it after 5 years?

I didn't say it's a good idea, it's just a better idea than t30 if you want big law and big law exists. If my best option was CCN sticker I'd take it, but sticker at a 7-14 I'm definately retaking.


I would really like to see the numbers.



Put 60k per year toward your debt (gets you to 300k in 5 years) and live on:
~35k your first year
~45k your second year
~60k your third year
~85k your fourth year
~105k your fifth year

With a decent amount of self-control, it shouldn't be that bad. You even get more money to live on if you worked at a firm during your 2L summer and used some of that money to offset your loans.

*Disclaimer: All numbers above are post-tax, and assumes that you work BigLaw, in a major city, and can hold your job for 5 years.

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Doritos
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Doritos » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:05 am

Mr. Elshal wrote:
mvp99 wrote:
canadianbrother wrote:
DaRascal wrote:

Hmmmm.. maybe T14 at sticker is legit after all now that you put it that way.


You can live frugally and pay off sticker debt in 5years of biglaw. But did you really work that hard in life to get where you are and spend your 20s working biglaw hours and have 0 net worth to show for it after 5 years?

I didn't say it's a good idea, it's just a better idea than t30 if you want big law and big law exists. If my best option was CCN sticker I'd take it, but sticker at a 7-14 I'm definately retaking.


I would really like to see the numbers.



Put 60k per year toward your debt (gets you to 300k in 5 years) and live on:
~35k your first year
~45k your second year
~60k your third year
~85k your fourth year
~105k your fifth year

With a decent amount of self-control, it shouldn't be that bad. You even get more money to live on if you worked at a firm during your 2L summer and used some of that money to offset your loans.

*Disclaimer: All numbers above are post-tax, and assumes that you work BigLaw, in a major city, and can hold your job for 5 years.


Also, you do not necessarily need to pay off your sticker debt before leaving biglaw.

Lets say you stick to this method for 3 years and get your debt down to around 100k or so. You can exit biglaw into another job that pays something like 100k. You have 100k in debt with 100k of income. That does not strike me as a terrible proposition. You also have various methods to manage your debt load, assuming you qualify, if you stay federal (PAYE, IBR, etc). I am not saying T14 sticker is the answer here but it seems like everyone is focused on how long it will take you to get to 0 debt. Perhaps you don't want to live super frugally for 5 years because you want to get get married or have some kids or whatever.

The reason why people go to T14 is because you get some cushion. The median bro at Minnesota is going to struggle more than the median bro at Michigan. You can still swing biglaw at Michigan and make 145k or 160k. That sort of job is going to exit into other private sector jobs that pay very well. The median bro at Minnesota may have trouble finding any legal employment that is worthwhile. Having no debt is nice but having debt and a job that can service that day in the (relative) short term but also fill up your bank account long term (or lead to other jobs that can) is not something to necessarily scoff at.

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WeeBey
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby WeeBey » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:00 pm

mvp99 wrote:
canadianbrother wrote:
DaRascal wrote:
canadianbrother wrote:It depends on what your goals are. If BigLaw is not what you want, the t30 is better no doubt. People love to say biglaw is overrated and lasts only 5 years, but after you can exist into great jobs with a better work life balance that are only attainable after a biglaw stint. If thats what you want the t14 is better.

But the real answer is retake. Unless you want rich parents.



Hmmmm.. maybe T14 at sticker is legit after all now that you put it that way.


You can live frugally and pay off sticker debt in 5years of biglaw. But did you really work that hard in life to get where you are and spend your 20s working biglaw hours and have 0 net worth to show for it after 5 years?

I didn't say it's a good idea, it's just a better idea than t30 if you want big law and big law exists. If my best option was CCN sticker I'd take it, but sticker at a 7-14 I'm definately retaking.


I would really like to see the numbers.


NY Lockstep 160, 170, 185, 210, 230. Following this years bonus structure that becomes 175, 195, 225, 265, 300 - and I doubt the economy can really get worse in the next little while. How much do you really need to lil off in NYC when working biglaw hours and meals on the firm? 50K is enough unless you grew up as a trust fund kid - in which case debt isnt an issue. After tax that probably comes down to 105, 120, 135, 160, 180 roughly. In 5 years you've netted 700k after tax. Plus interest after 5 years youll probably have to pay back 400k with interest. 300k left over 5 years lets you live off 60k a year. This assumes you last 5 years. Even if you dont, in 3 years you could pay a nice chunk and you got enough experience to get a nice inhouse job.

The real issue is it worth it? Biglaw stints are short and are during the prime of your youth. Id rather retake and be able to atleast have money to blow while I work those type of hours.

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:03 pm

Good points, canadianbrother. CB, you're a bro. 8)
One would be foolish to pass up a T14, even Georgetown, for the likes of a full ride at George Mason.

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:20 pm

Put 60k per year toward your debt (gets you to 300k in 5 years) and live on:
~35k your first year
~45k your second year
~60k your third year
~85k your fourth year
~105k your fifth year

With a decent amount of self-control, it shouldn't be that bad. You even get more money to live on if you worked at a firm during your 2L summer and used some of that money to offset your loans.

*Disclaimer: All numbers above are post-tax, and assumes that you work BigLaw, in a major city, and can hold your job for 5 years.[/quote]




For people reading this, keep in mind that there is more than 50% attrition by year 3 and more than 80% by year 5. It's not a guarantee you will get to this point. Also, living on 35k in NYC means working big law hours while living with three roommates, and never going out/eating at a restaurant/drinking at a bar/going on vacation.

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Mr. Elshal » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:27 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Put 60k per year toward your debt (gets you to 300k in 5 years) and live on:
~35k your first year
~45k your second year
~60k your third year
~85k your fourth year
~105k your fifth year

With a decent amount of self-control, it shouldn't be that bad. You even get more money to live on if you worked at a firm during your 2L summer and used some of that money to offset your loans.

*Disclaimer: All numbers above are post-tax, and assumes that you work BigLaw, in a major city, and can hold your job for 5 years.


For people reading this, keep in mind that there is more than 50% attrition by year 3 and more than 80% by year 5. It's not a guarantee you will get to this point. Also, living on 35k in NYC means working big law hours while living with three roommates, and never going out/eating at a restaurant/drinking at a bar/going on vacation.



- But do you have a breakdown of how many of those people leave voluntarily? It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that it's a large chunk of them.
- You can live on your own in NY on 35k post-tax. Where I live, you can rent a huge 2-bedroom apartment for 2100/month. You could probably get a decent-size 1-bedroom for 1600/month. You don't need roommates, you just need to not save much for a year or live frugally. For context, the overwhelming majority of Big4-employed accountants in NYC live on not much more than this for the first year or so. Somehow they all manage to go out and go on vacation. It's really nowhere near as bad as you make it sound.

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Doritos
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Doritos » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:16 pm

Mr. Elshal wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Put 60k per year toward your debt (gets you to 300k in 5 years) and live on:
~35k your first year
~45k your second year
~60k your third year
~85k your fourth year
~105k your fifth year

With a decent amount of self-control, it shouldn't be that bad. You even get more money to live on if you worked at a firm during your 2L summer and used some of that money to offset your loans.

*Disclaimer: All numbers above are post-tax, and assumes that you work BigLaw, in a major city, and can hold your job for 5 years.


For people reading this, keep in mind that there is more than 50% attrition by year 3 and more than 80% by year 5. It's not a guarantee you will get to this point. Also, living on 35k in NYC means working big law hours while living with three roommates, and never going out/eating at a restaurant/drinking at a bar/going on vacation.



- But do you have a breakdown of how many of those people leave voluntarily? It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that it's a large chunk of them.
- You can live on your own in NY on 35k post-tax. Where I live, you can rent a huge 2-bedroom apartment for 2100/month. You could probably get a decent-size 1-bedroom for 1600/month. You don't need roommates, you just need to not save much for a year or live frugally. For context, the overwhelming majority of Big4-employed accountants in NYC live on not much more than this for the first year or so. Somehow they all manage to go out and go on vacation. It's really nowhere near as bad as you make it sound.


No, he/she will not have such a breakdown but I am quite confident that the overwhelming majority of 3rd years who leave are not forced out by their firm. The biggest thing a junior has to worry about is being laid off rather than being individually fired.

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby cron1834 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:26 am

BigZuck wrote:I thought the rascal wasn't allowed out of his cage?

Informative
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Informative » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:43 pm

eriedoctrine wrote:Depends what T30 and what T14.


This. UT, UCLA, USC, Vandy, BC, BU are all still going to give you a decent employment shot at biglaw. Other T15-30 schools will not.

Additionally, the difference between prospects from GULC is not going to be significantly different than from UCLA, for example, but the difference between prospectus from Penn and Minnesota is going to be significant.

All relative.

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:01 pm

UCLA and Minnesota are peers lol.

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jbagelboy
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:32 pm

DaRascal wrote:UCLA and Minnesota are peers lol.


in what sense

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CardozoLaw09
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:00 pm

why don't you disclose your skewl

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:58 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
DaRascal wrote:UCLA and Minnesota are peers lol.


in what sense



Just seems like they have similar admissions standards, employment prospects, and they're both in cities with a lot of other law schools. No wonder they're ranked 16 and 20.

yunjh1066
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby yunjh1066 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:43 pm

this might sound dumb but according to the calculations above, with loans about 270K for the sticker price and earning about 80K from a big law... Can I say, unrealistically, that I will put in most of my income for loan payment (living under parents/spouse supporting you with housing and etc.), 80K to pay off 270K would not really take your lifetime, right?. Yes, this is not how it is in real life but is sticker price not worth it, not just financially but also because of the pain/stress-level/work-hours?

Thanks in advance. Just asking out of curiosity.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:48 pm

DaRascal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
DaRascal wrote:UCLA and Minnesota are peers lol.


in what sense



Just seems like they have similar admissions standards, employment prospects, and they're both in cities with a lot of other law schools. No wonder they're ranked 16 and 20.

Except the LA legal market is way huger than the MN legal market.

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jbagelboy
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:08 pm

DaRascal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
DaRascal wrote:UCLA and Minnesota are peers lol.


in what sense



Just seems like they have similar admissions standards, employment prospects, and they're both in cities with a lot of other law schools. No wonder they're ranked 16 and 20.


wut. do you even read / math

admissions standards: UCLA, 163 : 167 : 169, Minnesota, 157 (-6): 164 (-3): 166 (-3)

employment prospects: UCLA: 39.4% (Art III + Large Firm) vs. Minnesota: 17.1% (Art III + Large Firm).

Not similar at all. Not trying to hate on Minnesota here, it's just shocking how flippantly you make such unbelievably misleading and inaccurate statements




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