T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

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fats provolone
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:37 pm

yea the networking point is legit. but you build a lot of your network after graduation at work or in other activities.

Life2good893
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Life2good893 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:43 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
fats provolone wrote:
In other words, just because you graduate #1 from a TTT and get into biglaw, it doesn't mean you're going to have the same career options down the road as you might have as an average HLS grad.

do you have any examples


Just look at pretty much all the judges on the federal bench. Or the vast majority of biglaw partners. Or really any legal position that's really prestigious. You will find some TTT grads in each of those categories, but it's extremely limited relative to the number of people you're going to see from the top law schools. In the corporate attorney example, just think about how much easier it is go in-house at a fortune 500 company as an average HLS grad than as a TTT grad (even if you were #1 in your class). Not saying the TTT grad is going to become homeless, but the HLS grad has a lot more better options (although a part of that is just the professional network you get coming from a school like HLS relative to the network you get from a TTT, where the vast majority of your peers aren't going to find any type of lucrative work and most are lucky to find any legal employment).


Well there is a correlation / causation question here, but I mostly agree with you. I think almost the entire reason is because of networking though. Biglaw keeps those who can make the most $. Being from a better school means you know more people who can get you work. Same deal with Fed judges and Harvard and Yale grads -- those guys know people will be or will know future senators and politically connected people.


Yeah I agree there is definitely a correlation/causation uncertainty here. I'm from a certain Middle Eastern community and for some reason we know a lot about all the community members in the area I live in. And I remember there was a girl from U of Pacific Law School who worked at the local DAs office who was a candidate for a local judgeship (it was some years ago but I think these were the circumstances. She was super motivated, obviously intelligent, and as far as I can tell, her alma mater hadn't in any way limited her.

So it's entirely likely that many people who go to less well-known schools simply aren't as ambitious. So they never attempt to attain these prestigious jobs or really make a mark on the legal profession. Of course, there are the ones that studied really hard and just don't test well, but now we're talking about an unknown proportion of students, and it could be small.

Let's say we took a bunch of Yale students and stuck them at U of the Pacific? Would they underachieve because of the school?

EDIT: Would the Yale students underachieve after they graduated- even if they were very intelligent, would they be limited in their accomplishments because they hold a JD from UOP? That's what I meant.
Last edited by Life2good893 on Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:14 pm

Ummm hello.... Yale students have 4.0's from Top 10 undergrads and 180's. They would dominate at Pacific! :roll:


I guess I should tell you that the T30 I'm talking about is Iowa. They have problems with diversity, so, even though I have around median numbers for Iowa, I garnered a full ride. It's nice and all, but I've heard the legal markets at regional T1 schools are very insular and I would like to work in Chicago if I go to the Midwest, but got flatout rejected by UIUC, a worse school, because of my C&F disclosure. That's why I need to get into NU or Mich!

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:49 pm

DaRascal wrote:Ummm hello.... Yale students have 4.0's from Top 10 undergrads and 180's. They would dominate at Pacific! :roll:


I guess I should tell you that the T30 I'm talking about is Iowa. They have problems with diversity, so, even though I have around median numbers for Iowa, I garnered a full ride. It's nice and all, but I've heard the legal markets at regional T1 schools are very insular and I would like to work in Chicago if I go to the Midwest, but got flatout rejected by UIUC, a worse school, because of my C&F disclosure. That's why I need to get into NU or Mich!

:mrgreen:

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:21 pm

Life2good893 wrote:
Yeah I agree there is definitely a correlation/causation uncertainty here. I'm from a certain Middle Eastern community and for some reason we know a lot about all the community members in the area I live in. And I remember there was a girl from U of Pacific Law School who worked at the local DAs office who was a candidate for a local judgeship (it was some years ago but I think these were the circumstances. She was super motivated, obviously intelligent, and as far as I can tell, her alma mater hadn't in any way limited her.

So it's entirely likely that many people who go to less well-known schools simply aren't as ambitious. So they never attempt to attain these prestigious jobs or really make a mark on the legal profession. Of course, there are the ones that studied really hard and just don't test well, but now we're talking about an unknown proportion of students, and it could be small.


Dude, you realize virtually all of the local DAs and local court judges went to terrible law schools, right? Those aren't terribly prestigious legal jobs. Obviously, becoming a judge is pretty boss even at a local court, but it's very different than becoming a judge in a non-flyover federal court. In many areas, it's all about winning a judicial election, which you can do if you've spent 20 years working as a local DA. The vast majority of votes for a judicial election is going to come from non-attorneys, who probably won't even know what school the person went to, and even if they did, they wouldn't really know what that means (e.g. Harvard has a lot more lay prestige than Yale, and most people aren't going to know the prestige difference between NYU and NYLS).

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:41 pm

The fact that this is a debate that has taken place in several other threads and has yielded a gamut of differing opinions proves that there really is no clear cut answer to this question and that choosing either a T14 at sticker or a full-ride at a T30 (even at the UT/UCLA/Vandy level) with both options on the table would be a defensible choice either way.

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MistakenGenius
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Post removed.

Postby MistakenGenius » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:10 am

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:24 am

MistakenGenius wrote:As for OP's question, I agree that it really depends on your goals. If you know you want to work in a certain region, and there is a regional T30 that dominates in that region, you do have a big scholarship, and you aren't dead-set on Biglaw or some other unicorn job (fed. clerkship, academia, ACLU attorney), then by all means take the tier 1 school. It's the better option by far.

But if you do want one of those more competitive jobs, you need to realize law is a field obsessed with prestige (though most fields care about it to some degree) and that doors will be closed to you forever if you do not go to certain schools.



My situation is that, although I do want to go to law school, I don't know that I want to practice law for the rest of my life. I know that I want to play poker professionally, I just need a large enough ($100k+) bankroll to play with. I have a B.A. in English, and, although I do enjoy teaching the verbal sections of the SAT now and think I'd enjoy being a HS English teacher, it would take forever to build such a bankroll on a teacher's salary. In a perfect world, I'd re-do HS, pay more attention in math class, and go into I-Banking or something out of college. I wonder if I really need NU, Mich, or Duke to accept me at sticker in the next month or two or if I'll be fine going to Iowa for free and gunning. What worries me is that I've done a lot of research on Iowa and its reputation in the state and it's invariably been compared with Drake (a T4) in the same way that Nebraska gets compared with Creighton (a T4) and it makes me question Iowa's prestige in the Midwest. All I really need is a $70k+ job out of law school and 2-3 years of to work it to get my poker career started for real and I think Iowa can possibly do that, but I'm very skeptical because of these threads where Iowa + Drake grads are going for the same jobs.


My plan: practice law for 5-10 years, build a big enough bankroll to play poker professionally (and hopefully make it big time!), and then become an English teacher. Too much to ask for? :P
Last edited by DaRascal on Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:30 am

Je deteste le Drake. :roll:

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:28 am

DaRascal wrote:
MistakenGenius wrote:As for OP's question, I agree that it really depends on your goals. If you know you want to work in a certain region, and there is a regional T30 that dominates in that region, you do have a big scholarship, and you aren't dead-set on Biglaw or some other unicorn job (fed. clerkship, academia, ACLU attorney), then by all means take the tier 1 school. It's the better option by far.

But if you do want one of those more competitive jobs, you need to realize law is a field obsessed with prestige (though most fields care about it to some degree) and that doors will be closed to you forever if you do not go to certain schools.



My situation is that, although I do want to go to law school, I don't know that I want to practice law for the rest of my life. I know that I want to play poker professionally, I just need a large enough ($100k+) bankroll to play with. I have a B.A. in English, and, although I do enjoy teaching the verbal sections of the SAT now and think I'd enjoy being a HS English teacher, it would take forever to build such a bankroll on a teacher's salary. In a perfect world, I'd re-do HS, pay more attention in math class, and go into I-Banking or something out of college. I wonder if I really need NU, Mich, or Duke to accept me at sticker in the next month or two or if I'll be fine going to Iowa for free and gunning. What worries me is that I've done a lot of research on Iowa and its reputation in the state and its invariably been compared with Drake (a T4) in the same way that Nebraska gets compared with Creighton (a T4) and it makes me question Iowa's prestige in the Midwest. All I really need is a $70k+ job out of law school and 2-3 years of to work it to get my poker career started for real and I think Iowa can possibly do that, but I'm very skeptical because of these threads where Iowa + Drake grads are going for the same jobs.


My plan: practice law for 5-10 years, build a big enough bankroll to play poker professionally (and hopefully make it big time!), and then become an English teacher. Too much to ask for? :P


:o

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:52 am

Hmm, Zuck, I take it that you approve of my plan. I wonder if Iowa really is the money choice here though. I feel that NU might come through for me, and that'd be great, but if I mess up there then my poker dreams go down the drain, whereas at Iowa I can mess up to a point and still probably find a way to make the poker thing work, just with less of a bankroll/an extra year or two spent building the bankroll.

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:34 am

DaRascal wrote:Hmm, Zuck, I take it that you approve of my plan. I wonder if Iowa really is the money choice here though. I feel that NU might come through for me, and that'd be great, but if I mess up there then my poker dreams go down the drain, whereas at Iowa I can mess up to a point and still probably find a way to make the poker thing work, just with less of a bankroll/an extra year or two spent building the bankroll.


Either way

I think the main point here is the poker thing should work. So as long as you don't do anything to lose sight of that, you're good

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:40 am

Hmmm that's a really good point. Well I think I'll just go to Iowa and try to not take out any cost of living loans. With even a $50-60k job I can get rid of my undergrad loans in less than 2 years and then I can ball out and play in the World Series of Poker by the time I'm 31! :)

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:44 am

DaRascal wrote:Hmmm that's a really good point. Well I think I'll just go to Iowa and try to not take out any cost of living loans. With even a $50-60k job I can get rid of my undergrad loans in less than 2 years and then I can ball out and play in the World Series of Poker by the time I'm 31! :)


:)

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby Arad » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:34 pm

If money isn't an issue, T14 unless the T30's placement in the market I wanted to work in was unparalleled. (EX: If I wanted St Louis BigLaw, I would go to WashU on a full scholly, with HYS being exceptions to this rule)

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:38 pm

Arad wrote:If money isn't an issue, T14 unless the T30's placement in the market I wanted to work in was unparalleled. (EX: If I wanted St Louis BigLaw, I would go to WashU on a full scholly, with HYS being exceptions to this rule)



That's what I'm thinking too. I'm running out of straws. I need NU, Mich, or Duke at this point or else I'm going to end up spending another year teaching HS kids how to calm down and SAT.

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby FlamingDragon » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:53 pm

This is a loaded question - not all T14s are the same at sticker. Yes, you'd be insane to go to Cornell or GULC at sticker over a full ride at a decent law school. However, and particularly if you want to do LRAP (which many T14s have much better programs for) or even more so go into BigLaw, going to a Top 5 or 6 school is a much better decision than a T30 at full ride. I cannot stress enough how different the outcomes are at, for example, Chicago, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, versus schools even just outside the T14 like Vanderbilt, USC (California), etc.

If these top 5-7 schools are an option, sticker is worth it, again depending on the region you want to end up in and the type of work. I would not pay sticker at Cornell or even Berkely, for example, though, under most circumstances when you have a full ride. Again, though, if you do LRAP at a Stanford, Harvard, or Chicago, you're gona come out financially the same with an infinitely more valuable degree and alumni base.

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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby sublime » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:10 pm

..

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:35 pm

FlamingDragon wrote:This is a loaded question - not all T14s are the same at sticker. Yes, you'd be insane to go to Cornell or GULC at sticker over a full ride at a decent law school. However, and particularly if you want to do LRAP (which many T14s have much better programs for) or even more so go into BigLaw, going to a Top 5 or 6 school is a much better decision than a T30 at full ride. I cannot stress enough how different the outcomes are at, for example, Chicago, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, versus schools even just outside the T14 like Vanderbilt, USC (California), etc.

If these top 5-7 schools are an option, sticker is worth it, again depending on the region you want to end up in and the type of work. I would not pay sticker at Cornell or even Berkely, for example, though, under most circumstances when you have a full ride. Again, though, if you do LRAP at a Stanford, Harvard, or Chicago, you're gona come out financially the same with an infinitely more valuable degree and alumni base.

Unfortunately you're assuming Da Rascal is a remotely serious poster.

Although, semi-srs answer: Da Rascal, no one in Iowa cares that Iowa is ranked however much higher than Drake. Those are the 2 local schools, there are lots of lawyers running around Iowa who went to Drake, they're going to get talked about together and as comparable institutions. If that's going to bother you you're not going to do well (in this entirely fictional plan where you go to Iowa to bankroll your poker career).

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:08 pm

DaRascal wrote:
MistakenGenius wrote:As for OP's question, I agree that it really depends on your goals. If you know you want to work in a certain region, and there is a regional T30 that dominates in that region, you do have a big scholarship, and you aren't dead-set on Biglaw or some other unicorn job (fed. clerkship, academia, ACLU attorney), then by all means take the tier 1 school. It's the better option by far.

But if you do want one of those more competitive jobs, you need to realize law is a field obsessed with prestige (though most fields care about it to some degree) and that doors will be closed to you forever if you do not go to certain schools.



My situation is that, although I do want to go to law school, I don't know that I want to practice law for the rest of my life. I know that I want to play poker professionally, I just need a large enough ($100k+) bankroll to play with. I have a B.A. in English, and, although I do enjoy teaching the verbal sections of the SAT now and think I'd enjoy being a HS English teacher, it would take forever to build such a bankroll on a teacher's salary. In a perfect world, I'd re-do HS, pay more attention in math class, and go into I-Banking or something out of college. I wonder if I really need NU, Mich, or Duke to accept me at sticker in the next month or two or if I'll be fine going to Iowa for free and gunning. What worries me is that I've done a lot of research on Iowa and its reputation in the state and it's invariably been compared with Drake (a T4) in the same way that Nebraska gets compared with Creighton (a T4) and it makes me question Iowa's prestige in the Midwest. All I really need is a $70k+ job out of law school and 2-3 years of to work it to get my poker career started for real and I think Iowa can possibly do that, but I'm very skeptical because of these threads where Iowa + Drake grads are going for the same jobs.

My plan: practice law for 5-10 years, build a big enough bankroll to play poker professionally (and hopefully make it big time!), and then become an English teacher. Too much to ask for? :P


This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a long time. Do you explain that this is why you want to become an attorney in your personal statement?

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Although, semi-srs answer: Da Rascal, no one in Iowa cares that Iowa is ranked however much higher than Drake. Those are the 2 local schools, there are lots of lawyers running around Iowa who went to Drake, they're going to get talked about together and as comparable institutions. If that's going to bother you you're not going to do well (in this entirely fictional plan where you go to Iowa to bankroll your poker career).



It's a little worrisome because it makes me think that I'm overvaluing Iowa's ability to get me a good legal job when it doesn't even dominate Drake. :|

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DaRascal
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby DaRascal » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:31 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a long time. Do you explain that this is why you want to become an attorney in your personal statement?



I'm being entirely serious of course. We all have different goals you know!

I didn't explain it because I didn't want to hurt my chances so I took the spurious route in writing my essays and personal statement.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:09 pm

DaRascal wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Although, semi-srs answer: Da Rascal, no one in Iowa cares that Iowa is ranked however much higher than Drake. Those are the 2 local schools, there are lots of lawyers running around Iowa who went to Drake, they're going to get talked about together and as comparable institutions. If that's going to bother you you're not going to do well (in this entirely fictional plan where you go to Iowa to bankroll your poker career).



It's a little worrisome because it makes me think that I'm overvaluing Iowa's ability to get me a good legal job when it doesn't even dominate Drake. :|

Well, yes, you are, if by "good legal job" you mean "something outside of Iowa."

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sublime
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby sublime » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:15 pm

..

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90convoy
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Re: T14 Sticker vs. T30 Full Tuition Scholly

Postby 90convoy » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:18 pm

This may sound weird, but why don't people just not work in NYC when taking on sticker debt. Sticker debt + NYC biglaw doesn't afford much of a decent lifestyle.




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