how they do it

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unodostres

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Re: how they do it

Postby unodostres » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:55 am

Ya, my statement was stupid to say. There's more substance to this so let me give you my take. To me, I think the schools are the worst offenders. Just looking at the amount of shit schools in California infuriates me. I have friends and family that went to TTTT's... so even if people think they are a special snowflake, schools are so scummy in hiding stats. They do make it seem like you're going to get a legal education that will put you into a better position. So I think I just want to clear that up. I don't think that the students matriculating are only in the wrong. I actually think that schools are the reason for this entire scam. They prey on minorities, false promises, hopes and dreams of models and bottles. Then look at the aba that allows this shit and accredits institutions, to the ordinary person, it looks good.

Sometimes I just look at t4 websites for shits and giggles. Each one spews the diarrhea of new legal education, so I get where you're coming from brut. They have faculty that went to every t14, so it does make it seem like you're getting a legal education from the best. Couple that with a nice building, clinics, and whatever you want to push, and people will be convinced regardless of the stats.

I understand I've been brought up differently, but I was close to going to whittier when I finished school. Total 180 now. So I can understand the I need to go to law school or my parents will cut me. There's a lot of factors that almost push these people into that direction, so regardless of the stats, it's hard to say you don't feel sympathy for them. But that's their problem.

And ya, I think tls is really the only place get solid info. You hear the same stuff from lawyers out here. Just go to the best school. Read into whatever articles you can find but it doesn't paint the entire picture. Now that I think of it, I can say I'm lucky. Tls saved me, and I agree that if you don't find that right information, it's all dowbhill.
Last edited by unodostres on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how they do it

Postby xylocarp » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:12 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think a LOT of schools have some cachet in their local market and among certain populations. There's certainly an anti-Ivy/elite school streak in a lot of regions/populations, and it's easy to assume that what holds for undergrad holds for grad schools. Obviously yes, there is information to the contrary out there, but there are a lot of potential students who really don't know what it is they don't know.

Which is to say, I generally agree with Brut that it's still pretty easy to fall for some of the marketing. If everyone in your community "knows" that lawyers make money, and "knows" that being a lawyer is a good, respectable, upper-middle class profession, and "knows" that - say - JM is a good school, why would you look for counterinformation?

this is so true. I hear things along the lines of "I don't want to go to Harvard, I don't need to go to Harvard, and that's okay. So I'm just shooting for [FIU/Nova Southeastern/Ave Maria/etc]", as if the only two options are "elitist ivies" and TTTs
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sideroxylon

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Re: how they do it

Postby sideroxylon » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:22 am

I feel like this thread is walking a fine line. I agree that people go too far with the bashing of people at shit schools some times, but that isn't because I pity the people who end up there—it's because a PRESTIGIOUS law school is still a law school and thus there's no reason to be high and mighty about anything.

But, in terms of the discussion here and elsewhere, we should probably be more negative. I understand they'll read confusing things. I think it's less confusing if, as a group, people almost uniformly said "Don't go to law school. There are few jobs. You don't want those jobs. You will die alone."

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Re: how they do it

Postby NYCFAN1 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:08 pm

xylocarp wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think a LOT of schools have some cachet in their local market and among certain populations. There's certainly an anti-Ivy/elite school streak in a lot of regions/populations, and it's easy to assume that what holds for undergrad holds for grad schools. Obviously yes, there is information to the contrary out there, but there are a lot of potential students who really don't know what it is they don't know.

Which is to say, I generally agree with Brut that it's still pretty easy to fall for some of the marketing. If everyone in your community "knows" that lawyers make money, and "knows" that being a lawyer is a good, respectable, upper-middle class profession, and "knows" that - say - JM is a good school, why would you look for counterinformation?

this is so true. I hear things along the lines of "I don't want to go to Harvard, I don't need to go to Harvard, and that's okay. So I'm just shooting for [FIU/Nova Southeastern/Ave Maria/etc]", as if the only two options are "elitist ivies" and TTTs


Yep, ttt students say things like "those schools don't teach you how to pass the bar" and "my school is top ten in moot court!" It's completely idiotic.

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unodostres

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Re: how they do it

Postby unodostres » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:11 pm

xylocarp wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think a LOT of schools have some cachet in their local market and among certain populations. There's certainly an anti-Ivy/elite school streak in a lot of regions/populations, and it's easy to assume that what holds for undergrad holds for grad schools. Obviously yes, there is information to the contrary out there, but there are a lot of potential students who really don't know what it is they don't know.

Which is to say, I generally agree with Brut that it's still pretty easy to fall for some of the marketing. If everyone in your community "knows" that lawyers make money, and "knows" that being a lawyer is a good, respectable, upper-middle class profession, and "knows" that - say - JM is a good school, why would you look for counterinformation?

this is so true. I hear things along the lines of "I don't want to go to Harvard, I don't need to go to Harvard, and that's okay. So I'm just shooting for [FIU/Nova Southeastern/Ave Maria/etc]", as if the only two options are "elitist ivies" and TTTs


While they list the amazing clinics and whatever to list differences to rationalize the choice.

I rememebr taking the lsat in June and I guy asked why I was retaking. He said just go to ucsd and you'll eventually get that multi million dollar case settlement. It's this false expectation of becoming great at a school that will not offer is scary. Makes you wonder when the student loan bubble will burst.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: how they do it

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:59 pm

sideroxylon wrote:I feel like this thread is walking a fine line. I agree that people go too far with the bashing of people at shit schools some times, but that isn't because I pity the people who end up there—it's because a PRESTIGIOUS law school is still a law school and thus there's no reason to be high and mighty about anything.

But, in terms of the discussion here and elsewhere, we should probably be more negative. I understand they'll read confusing things. I think it's less confusing if, as a group, people almost uniformly said "Don't go to law school. There are few jobs. You don't want those jobs. You will die alone."

I do kind of agree with the last part. There are some desirable legal jobs (though few people will get them) and lol at dying alone being at all related to this. But in the same way that there's now this thing "you have to get a BA to get a job," we're seeing degree-creep where people think, "you have to get a grad degree to get a good job." So I can get behind "don't go to law school. there are few jobs. you don't want most of them."

I mean, I'm a hypocrite in saying this, because I have advanced degrees up the wahoo. But I often think that if people put the time into getting jobs and doing entry-level work and learning a particular industry that they put into preparing for/applying to/going to law school, they'd have just as good outcomes. (I realize that's a little boot-strappy, but I get frustrated with the idea that you have to pay 6 figures to get yet another degree to have any shot at a good job.)

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Re: how they do it

Postby sideroxylon » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:19 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sideroxylon wrote:I feel like this thread is walking a fine line. I agree that people go too far with the bashing of people at shit schools some times, but that isn't because I pity the people who end up there—it's because a PRESTIGIOUS law school is still a law school and thus there's no reason to be high and mighty about anything.

But, in terms of the discussion here and elsewhere, we should probably be more negative. I understand they'll read confusing things. I think it's less confusing if, as a group, people almost uniformly said "Don't go to law school. There are few jobs. You don't want those jobs. You will die alone."

I do kind of agree with the last part. There are some desirable legal jobs (though few people will get them) and lol at dying alone being at all related to this. But in the same way that there's now this thing "you have to get a BA to get a job," we're seeing degree-creep where people think, "you have to get a grad degree to get a good job." So I can get behind "don't go to law school. there are few jobs. you don't want most of them."

I mean, I'm a hypocrite in saying this, because I have advanced degrees up the wahoo. But I often think that if people put the time into getting jobs and doing entry-level work and learning a particular industry that they put into preparing for/applying to/going to law school, they'd have just as good outcomes. (I realize that's a little boot-strappy, but I get frustrated with the idea that you have to pay 6 figures to get yet another degree to have any shot at a good job.)


@ the bolded some people manage to make relationships work after law school, but the two most likely outcomes are big law (lol @ dating/difficult to maintain a healthy relationship) and shit employment (good luck staying positive for three years while you job hunt/finding someone after that)

i mean, let's think about how many people on TLS are single (and also think about how many who aren't met through this website)

I'm serious about the dying alone part.

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Re: how they do it

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:52 pm

One of the above posters was spot on that applicants probably don't look at the numbers all that much except when they've already made up their mind. The numbers and the site confirm what they've already been expecting, which is that law is a prestigious upper middle class profession, that you don't need to go into nerdypants elitist country club Harvard to get a good job, and that going to a lower ranked law school will teach you how to really practice law instead of just think about thinking stuff.

Look, to some people the very notion that a LAW SCHOOL could operate the same way as Corinthian Colleges or ITT Tech, or that there could be such a thing as an "unprestigious" law school is like saying that the sky is yellow. It literally never occurs to them.

Similarly, for many even middle-class people (myself included) law school may be the first time that they've ever met lawyers or law students. I did not have a single relative, family friend, older classmates, etc that I could have turned to for advice about law school. And I grew up pretty middle class.

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Re: how they do it

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:08 pm

sideroxylon wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
sideroxylon wrote:I feel like this thread is walking a fine line. I agree that people go too far with the bashing of people at shit schools some times, but that isn't because I pity the people who end up there—it's because a PRESTIGIOUS law school is still a law school and thus there's no reason to be high and mighty about anything.

But, in terms of the discussion here and elsewhere, we should probably be more negative. I understand they'll read confusing things. I think it's less confusing if, as a group, people almost uniformly said "Don't go to law school. There are few jobs. You don't want those jobs. You will die alone."

I do kind of agree with the last part. There are some desirable legal jobs (though few people will get them) and lol at dying alone being at all related to this. But in the same way that there's now this thing "you have to get a BA to get a job," we're seeing degree-creep where people think, "you have to get a grad degree to get a good job." So I can get behind "don't go to law school. there are few jobs. you don't want most of them."

I mean, I'm a hypocrite in saying this, because I have advanced degrees up the wahoo. But I often think that if people put the time into getting jobs and doing entry-level work and learning a particular industry that they put into preparing for/applying to/going to law school, they'd have just as good outcomes. (I realize that's a little boot-strappy, but I get frustrated with the idea that you have to pay 6 figures to get yet another degree to have any shot at a good job.)


@ the bolded some people manage to make relationships work after law school, but the two most likely outcomes are big law (lol @ dating/difficult to maintain a healthy relationship) and shit employment (good luck staying positive for three years while you job hunt/finding someone after that)

i mean, let's think about how many people on TLS are single (and also think about how many who aren't met through this website)

I'm serious about the dying alone part.

Yeah, I know you are, but I think that says a lot more about you than it does about the legal profession.

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Re: how they do it

Postby sideroxylon » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:10 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, I know you are, but I think that says a lot more about you than it does about the legal profession.


i'm too lazy to crosspost from years of following the something awful thread, but it's something they've included in their advice for years for a reason

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Re: how they do it

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:29 pm

sideroxylon wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, I know you are, but I think that says a lot more about you than it does about the legal profession.


i'm too lazy to crosspost from years of following the something awful thread, but it's something they've included in their advice for years for a reason


I genuinely don't mean this as an insult, but do you think you're just sort of a gloomy dude by nature? I remember your post about discouraging literally everyone from going to law school, and your justification for going anyway was basically, "Well, I won't be happy regardless so I might as well do this." I wonder if the glass is half empty, we're doomed anecdotes are the ones you just naturally latch on to. Not that there aren't legitimate reasons to be depressed about the legal economy, but "plan on dying alone because the goons from SA* said so" strikes me as the sort of thing you'd hear from an angsty gothic teenager.

Again, this isn't an insult: you're clearly not a dumb guy or anything. I just wonder if you have this sort of black cloud gloom about life in general.

*I used to post there years ago, and while there are some hilarious posters, they don't strike me as the most well-adjusted, emotionally centered group. And it's certainly a community with a greater Forever Alone percentage than the general population.

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Re: how they do it

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:34 pm

sideroxylon wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, I know you are, but I think that says a lot more about you than it does about the legal profession.


i'm too lazy to crosspost from years of following the something awful thread, but it's something they've included in their advice for years for a reason

What is the "something" they've included? That everyone who goes into law is miserable and dies alone? I mean, it's just not true. That doesn't have anything to do with whether law is a good career choice, and more to do with the fact that people aren't their jobs.

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Re: how they do it

Postby sideroxylon » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:30 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:That everyone who goes into law is miserable and dies alone? I mean, it's just not true. That doesn't have anything to do with whether law is a good career choice, and more to do with the fact that people aren't their jobs.


the law school OP is

"Do not go to law school.

There are no jobs.

You will die alone."

It's obviously not true that everyone dies alone, but maybe people should think about the downsides of entering a profession w/ bad job prospects and pretty demanding hours across the board. It's almost like being a lawyer makes dying alone more likely or something, and they want to point that out. Shocking!

TheSpanishMain wrote:I genuinely don't mean this as an insult, but do you think you're just sort of a gloomy dude by nature? I remember your post about discouraging literally everyone from going to law school, and your justification for going anyway was basically, "Well, I won't be happy regardless so I might as well do this." I wonder if the glass is half empty, we're doomed anecdotes are the ones you just naturally latch on to. Not that there aren't legitimate reasons to be depressed about the legal economy, but "plan on dying alone because the goons from SA* said so" strikes me as the sort of thing you'd hear from an angsty gothic teenager.


I'm a gloomy dude, but I don't plan or expect to die alone. Do think it's made more likely on the aggregate, though.

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Re: how they do it

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:53 pm

sideroxylon wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:That everyone who goes into law is miserable and dies alone? I mean, it's just not true. That doesn't have anything to do with whether law is a good career choice, and more to do with the fact that people aren't their jobs.


the law school OP is

"Do not go to law school.

There are no jobs.

You will die alone."

It's obviously not true that everyone dies alone, but maybe people should think about the downsides of entering a profession w/ bad job prospects and pretty demanding hours across the board. It's almost like being a lawyer makes dying alone more likely or something, and they want to point that out. Shocking!


"You'll die alone" is a pretty common tongue in cheek way of parodying sensationalist, over the top fear mongering. I suspect that's what's going on there, but I'm not going to wade back into SA to figure it out.

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sideroxylon

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Re: how they do it

Postby sideroxylon » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:55 pm

no p. sure it's intentional fear mongering

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: how they do it

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:56 pm

sideroxylon wrote:the law school OP is

"Do not go to law school.

There are no jobs.

You will die alone."

It's obviously not true that everyone dies alone, but maybe people should think about the downsides of entering a profession w/ bad job prospects and pretty demanding hours across the board. It's almost like being a lawyer makes dying alone more likely or something, and they want to point that out. Shocking!

Except it's kind of ridiculously melodramatic and again, not true. And since it sounds like it's parodying over-the-top fearmongering, it kind of dilutes the message it wants to send.

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Re: how they do it

Postby sideroxylon » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:59 pm

let's wait a few years so we can have more post divorce TLS poaster/an actual FA thread

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Pragmatic Gun

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Re: how they do it

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:47 am

I've got like 10 more examples like this. They're making decisions that can potentially screw their lives, ignoring mine and TLS advice, dismiss us as elitist (which I can see as kinda valid tbf) and think that "it wont happen to us."


I don't understand what makes the advice elitist. It is very sensible in light of the circumstances of the legal market. Is it our tone that offends people? Sometimes I feel like I may be expressing my warnings a bit too strongly. I worry about this because I'd rather successfully persuade as many people as I can to choose the law school with the better employment statistics or to retake the LSAT until they score as high as they can.

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Re: how they do it

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:58 am

Pragmatic Gun wrote:
I've got like 10 more examples like this. They're making decisions that can potentially screw their lives, ignoring mine and TLS advice, dismiss us as elitist (which I can see as kinda valid tbf) and think that "it wont happen to us."


I don't understand what makes the advice elitist. It is very sensible in light of the circumstances of the legal market. Is it our tone that offends people? Sometimes I feel like I may be expressing my warnings a bit too strongly. I worry about this because I'd rather successfully persuade as many people as I can to choose the law school with the better employment statistics or to retake the LSAT until they score as high as they can.


Intellectually lazy people are intellectually lazy. Elitist really means "You're making me feel bad and my kindergarten teacher told me that nobody gets to make me feel bad. I have to come back at you somehow to nurse my shame-wound and the most facile argument is that since you're speaking from a vantage above mine, you must be elitist - or at least condescending. In fact, everyone who is doing better than I am is an elitist and everyone who is doing worse than I am is a hater. Funny enough, I have no peers because I am a precious snowflake."

And that's how you get facebook posts celebrating the mere act of existing like momentous achievements e.g. "Made it through my double-shift! #winning #onthatgrind #timetodrink #popbottles"

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Re: how they do it

Postby Pumpkin-Duke of Pie » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:26 pm

sideroxylon wrote:let's wait a few years so we can have more post divorce TLS poaster/an actual FA thread


While fairly depressive, I have to agree. We have yet to see what the effects of crippling debt and constant stress induced by the volatility of a legal career will have on lawyer marriages. Odds are, unless you're married to a fellow lawyer (and god only knows what problems could come with that), your SO isn't going to be very understanding of the challenges facing those in the legal profession (even with all the info out there, most lay people are still incredibly clueless as to how bad it is). And pray you don't lose your job, because unemployment is very often a marriage/relationship killer, especially if it goes on longer than a few months or your new form of employment lowers your collective standard of living.

This won't effect everyone (maybe true love does exist), but for a lot of would-be attorneys and current practitioners this should be a very real consideration when considering or being in a relationship.

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Re: how they do it

Postby TheoO » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:21 pm

A person I know read a blog or two, took a few weeks to study for the lsat, and decided on ttt right after.
Another friend took a kaplan course, took the test, and applied. ttt as well.

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Re: how they do it

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:07 am

TTT propaganda v. stubbornly delusional & stupid special snowflakes?... but who's to blame???

Here's a clue: the existence of the former and the plight of the latter is BOTH of their fault. One cannot exist without the other. It's a symbiotic relationship. You know, like buttsex and the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that results. (--LinkRemoved--)

In the age of Google, where vast quantities of vetted and openly debated information is available in seconds, YOU are responsible for your ignorance. This isn't communist fucking China. This site exists. You don't have to blindly believe the people who are attempting to remove you from $200k. If you have the internet to look up TTT propaganda, you have the internet to find TLS, or LST, or JDU, or Reddit, etc...

So given this reality, how could somebody possibly pay the absurd ticket price to gobble down a TTTTurd sandwich, you ask? How could someone not do some reasonably diligent and easy research before spending $200k+ for absolutely no equity in return?

Because there are literally tens of thousands of fucking delusional, stupid, and stubborn mouthbreathers who have undergrad degrees in this country, that's why.

- Giving them "real numbers" won't work, because they don't fucking understand numbers. That's why they're going to law school in the first place, remember?
- Telling them how much it costs won't work either, because this is all monopoly money. You can go to law school with $0 to your name and NO CREDIT. "Shit, I'll pay eleventy gagillion dollars for law school... my bro told me it all goes away in like 10 years anyway. #crushingit." (Also see above re not understanding numbers)
- Telling them ANYTHING won't work, because they are too stubborn and self-deluded to actually process it. It's like if you said nothing at all. They cling to any shred of even remotely self-justifying information like it's floating debris and they're Leo DiCaprio. And trust me, you're no Kate Winslet.
- The TTT propaganda gives them perfect debris to cling to. Make the TTT's stop giving out misleading stats? That's ok, the TTT still has "great clinics and will train me to be practice ready." There's always another justification to be found.

Go ahead, try and talk one of these tards out of attending a TTT dumpster fire for sticker because they want to "help people." See how effective your "facts" are. I've tried and failed enough times that I no longer feel sorry for them.

Horse to water, chief. And Darwin.

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Re: how they do it

Postby The Dark Shepard » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:27 pm

I don't understand why people expect to take internet blog and forum sites with the same level of seriousness of "serious" law school sites and news articles, as well as people they trust.

Certainly a lot will see this and begin to look, but it isn't hard to figure out which one a person will believe at first glance.

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Re: how they do it

Postby 20141023 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:31 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how they do it

Postby 03152016 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:31 am

this is a great alternative to the standard 509
i agree these forms really should be more sensibly named and located in a standardized location on a law school's site
some schools have responded to mandatory disclosures by burying them in non-mandatory disclosures
until there is a single, exclusive, definitive, and accessible disclosure, schools will continue to find ways to stymie the current regime



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