imKMart wrote:Winston1984 wrote:WichitaShocker wrote:John Marshall (ATL)
LSAT:146(0), 148(-1), 151(-1)
GPA:2.63(-.02), 2.90(-.08), 3.21(-.13)
God this is infuriating.. Needs to close.
How much does this school cost and do people here realize they will not be hired as lawyers...?
every year thousands of students shell out tens of thousands of dollars a piece to attend toilets
what are they thinking? haven't they heard about the law school scam? can't they do some research?
in the tls bubble, it's almost unthinkable that a prospective student wouldn't know about 509 forms and lst and bl+fc
yet that's the reality for thousands of students each year
every cue they've gotten from society is that law is a respectable and prosperous path – it's portrayed as such in the media, maybe they know a few successful lawyers, their profs and pre-law advisors encourage them to go to law school, and so do their parents and friends
yet, thanks to the diligent efforts of law school reformers, it seems you'd have to be particularly oblivious to not be aware of the peril that is attending law school in 2014
it's only reasonable to assume that even the students with the least cultural capital do at least some research on employment outcomes before plunging into six figure debt
so how do these law schools manage to keep students attending?
how they do it
for the purposes of this demonstration, i picked atlanta's john marshall
i checked out their site after seeing the thread quoted above
i didn't go cherry picking, this is the very first site i came across
in the future i may bump this thread with other schools
so forget you're a tls user for a moment
imagine you're one of the students i described above
you just graduated from a small undergrad in georgia, and you're thinking of attending law school
you know a successful lawyer who graduated from atlanta's john marshall and you think it might be a good fit
however, since you've heard law school is a risky proposition, you decide it's best to look at the employment statistics
a law school wouldn't lie, would they?
you log onto their official website
looks pretty good, lots of success stories
you're looking at their j.d. page when something catches your eye - student outcomes & disclosures
bingo, that's exactly what you were looking for!
good on them for being so forward
right at the very top of the page is "gainful employment disclosure"
that sounds familiar to you, someone told you on some forum to check out the employment disclosures
this will be easy, you think
here we are! the employment disclosures!
except only a quarter of the page actually talks about employment at all
that's odd, you think
but look, the number is right there
93% of students graduate in 3 years
and their job placement is 88%
'wow!', you think, 'an 88% chance of becoming an attorney!'
you're excited, and can hardly contain yourself as you click on the "more information" button
'look at all these jobs i can get from john marshall!', you exclaim
you had never thought of being a judge... or a professor! that one had never occurred to you either
of course, had you clicked on the link you wouldn't have been directed to any statistics about placement in those areas
no information about actual student outcomes
instead you're directed to this fairly useless page:
and had you clicked the link on the bottom of the disclosures page to get more information about the program, this is what you would have found:
but at this point you don't even notice
your head is buzzing with the thought of becoming a real lawyer, an 88% chance!
still, you're not done with your due diligence yet
you head back to the "student outcomes" page and scroll down to "job placement statistics"
here you read about the methodology behind the number
looks like this number wasn't pulled out of thin air, it's calculated by the ABA, or NALP, or some other organization that you have a faint familiarity with
you're now thoroughly satisfied that this was a scientifically conducted survey, not a bunch of marketing fluff
you don't even notice the "previous placement statistics" (actual employment reports) at the very bottom of the page
if you had, maybe you wouldn't have thought it relevant since you had the most current version right in front of you
and even if you had clicked on it, you may not have known what to make of it, since the disclosures don't explain the importance of the lt/ft/jd number (unlike the 85/88% figure, which is explained over and over again on the john marshall site)
at this point, you're pretty satisfied with john marshall and are strongly considering attending
there's one last place to check – the career services page
that's where you find this:
you see another sky high employment figure
200/234 graduates employed
and look at the outcomes!
law! business! government! public interest! academia!
this was just what you were looking for, now you're ready to deposit
(and the disclosure at the bottom of the page is useless for the reasons stated earlier)
but what you don't know is that "law" includes hanging a shingle after failing to find work, and losing money
and you don't know that the "business" category includes temp coder jobs, jumping from law firm basement to basement trying to make ends meet
and you don't know that "government" doesn't mean government lawyer or even jd-advantage jobs in government, it simply covers most jobs where a government is the employer
and you don't know that "public interest" includes school funded jobs you're almost certain to lose after a year of working for scraps
and you don't know that "academia" includes teaching grade school, which you could have done without six figure law school debt
there's a lot you don't know, because atlanta's john marshall has tried to hide the real data from you while maintaining a veneer of transparency
people scoff at students who end up at toilets, figuring it's their fault for being so gullible
but not so fast
look at what they're up against