The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

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whitespider

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby whitespider » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:22 pm

Eh, if you dig into the numbers, nearly 2/3rds of grads are employed jd/full/long. For free and in your home state, that's not a terrible option.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/idaho/jobs/2013/

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby pancakes3 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:27 pm

Brut wrote:i don't think i've ever seen this many tlsers endorse a school with such objectively awful employment statistics before
again, just because it's the only game in town doesn't make it a good decision


Full ride vs 70k/year for ND makes for a very nice false dichotomy.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby BigZuck » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:27 pm

Brut wrote:i don't think i've ever seen this many tlsers endorse a school with such objectively awful employment statistics before
again, just because it's the only game in town doesn't make it a good decision


54% certainly isn't good

Not really sure what one should do if they want to practice law in Idaho though. Going out of state to a school with better employment stats (a Notre Dame, for example) almost certainly won't help.

I'd imagine if you could snag a full ride that COL would be pretty cheap so you could get out with about 50K debt. You'll never get BIG POTATO LAW but if you want to work at a small firm/local gov job making like 30-40K starting out maybe that's worth 50K, IDK

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:35 pm

whitespider wrote:Eh, if you dig into the numbers, nearly 2/3rds of grads are employed jd/full/long. For free and in your home state, that's not a terrible option.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/idaho/jobs/2013/

there were 117 graduates at u idaho last year
64 of them were lt/ft/jd-required excluding solos
that's a 54.7% lt/ft/jd rate
if we're going to represent those outcomes as a fraction, 1/2 is much more accurate than 2/3

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:42 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Brut wrote:i don't think i've ever seen this many tlsers endorse a school with such objectively awful employment statistics before
again, just because it's the only game in town doesn't make it a good decision


54% certainly isn't good

Not really sure what one should do if they want to practice law in Idaho though. Going out of state to a school with better employment stats (a Notre Dame, for example) almost certainly won't help.

I'd imagine if you could snag a full ride that COL would be pretty cheap so you could get out with about 50K debt. You'll never get BIG POTATO LAW but if you want to work at a small firm/local gov job making like 30-40K starting out maybe that's worth 50K, IDK

like i said earlier, i wouldn't attend air conditioner maintenance school in alaska, even if doing so was my best shot of becoming an air conditioner mechanic in anchorage
the fact that only half of idaho grads get jobs tells me that either idaho employers think poorly of the school or there's simply not enough demand for freshly-minted jds in idaho to make it a good investment

if my dream entails a 50% chance of failure, i pursue a different dream

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby muskies970 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:54 pm

Meh, 50% chance of failure isn't that bad in this case to follow
Your dream, it's only 50k in debt plus 3 years of
Foregone income which obviously isn't an ideal place to be but isn't life ruining again considering it's from following your dream career path. I also imagine OP has a slightly better chance since s/he is getting a full ride.

Would be curious what other jobs and salaries are available for the OP though in Idaho as an alternative

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:13 pm

muskies970 wrote:Meh, 50% chance of failure isn't that bad in this case to follow
Your dream, it's only 50k in debt plus 3 years of
Foregone income which obviously isn't an ideal place to be but isn't life ruining again considering it's from following your dream career path. I also imagine OP has a slightly better chance since s/he is getting a full ride.

Would be curious what other jobs and salaries are available for the OP though in Idaho as an alternative

OH PLEASE

1) according to law school transparency
if you get 100% full ride (no tuition/fees)
you end up $61,214 in debt
let's not play fast and loose with the numbers here

2) per capita income in idaho is $17,841
that's $59,470 over the course of law school + deferment

that's $120,684 and 3 and a half years of your life
seriously
'ehh 50% chance of failure and being $120,684 in the hole, not too shabs'
is one of the worst arguments i've ever heard on here
Last edited by 03152016 on Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:14 pm

unless you posted that sarcastically
which i suspect you might have
in which case, congrats on wooshing me

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whitespider

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby whitespider » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:27 pm

Brut wrote:
whitespider wrote:Eh, if you dig into the numbers, nearly 2/3rds of grads are employed jd/full/long. For free and in your home state, that's not a terrible option.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/idaho/jobs/2013/

there were 117 graduates at u idaho last year
64 of them were lt/ft/jd-required excluding solos
that's a 54.7% lt/ft/jd rate
if we're going to represent those outcomes as a fraction, 1/2 is much more accurate than 2/3


Yeah, I was including solos which bump it up over 62%. I mean it is Idaho after all. No amount of money could get me to live and work in the potato state.

I guess my point is, he isn't destroying his life. I see way too many people spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on coin flips, I just can't get too outraged about this.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:29 pm

$120,684 net loss seems pretty outrageous to me

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby muskies970 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:31 pm

Not sarcastic. 50% chance of "failure" again assuming 0 benefit from jd = 120k in the hole agreed but over the course of ones lifetime not egregiously awful. Especially considering real debt is only 60k. Is that the option I want? No.. But is the risk justifiable to go for a career one wants, I think so.

Again I'm assuming if Op has the numbers for a full ride there's a slightly better than 50% shot and even if lawyers in Idaho only make 30k a year that's double what he would make in the average profession. Over a 40 year career that's 15k * 40 = 600k difference, down to 500k even it looks like a rational decision to me if OPs only other long term employment options are idahos median salary.

If he has another 30k+ a year gig lined up or a 50/50 shot at it go for that instead obviously if the work itself doesn't matter in terms of personal satisfaction

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby whitespider » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:32 pm

It's not a 120k net loss. He would have had to spend 60k to live anyhow. You can't count both loans to cover living expense and also count living expenses. He'd only be out 60k.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby muskies970 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:38 pm

In sum. Approximately and based on averages

50% chance of being 60k in debt and "wasting" 3 years of life
50% chance of being 60k in debt but making 500k+ more over the course of a career.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:39 pm

whitespider wrote:It's not a 120k net loss. He would have had to spend 60k to live anyhow. You can't count both loans to cover living expense and also count living expenses. He'd only be out 60k.

no, you can't assume that, we have no idea what his living situation is currently
further, it wouldn't be 60k, because that's an interest/fees adjusted figure

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby whitespider » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:41 pm

True, but we also don't know his current employment situation to know if he'd lose out on any income.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:45 pm

whitespider wrote:True, but we also don't know his current employment situation to know if he'd lose out on any income.

it's reasonable to assume a recent college grad will be employed within 3 years of graduation
i'm not so sure the same can be said re: moving out
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/22/magaz ... .html?_r=0

fwiw, out of my group of friends, it seemed moving back home after college was the default mode, everyone did it
but maybe that also has to do with the fact that my hometown is commuting distance from nyc

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby McAvoy » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:47 pm

Yeah what is one who really wants to practice in Idaho supposed to do, then?

If hypothetical lifelong Idahoan graduates with ~T14 numbers but does not want to leave Idaho and has otherwise average job prospects, a full ride to Idaho is not a life or death coin flip. If the LSAT provides any predicative validity, we can pretty safely assume said Idahoan will be in the upper half of the grade distribution -- half of his classmates will have scored less than a 152.

Not saying it's ideal, but if spending their life in Idaho is someone's most important factor in choosing a law school, fullsies there isn't suicidal.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:52 pm

Brut wrote:2) per capita income in idaho is $17,841
that's $59,470 over the course of law school + deferment

Except it seems a little unfair to throw this in there, when no one counts it when looking at the costs of T14 etc. Everyone who goes to law school anywhere is passing up the income they could have made if they'd worked; that's not an Idaho-specific calculation, but you seem to be making it Idaho-specific here.

I agree with those who think that if you want to stay in Idaho, going to the U of Idaho for free is a reasonable calculation. (I went to a school much more like Idaho than any of the T14. You're just not looking for remotely similar outcomes.)

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:52 pm

muskies970 wrote:In sum. Approximately and based on averages

50% chance of being 60k in debt and "wasting" 3 years of life
50% chance of being 60k in debt but making 500k+ more over the course of a career.

it's great how you're missing the point
people don't go to law school to play roulette
it's not like you fail to find employment after law school and say, oh well, guess it's onto the next thing

you go to law school because you have a strong desire to become a lawyer
that is what you want to do with your life

even if the positive outcome far outweighs the negative outcome
someone who has a strong desire to become a lawyer should not attend a school that gives them a 50% chance of doing so

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby McAvoy » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:54 pm

Brut wrote:someone who has a strong desire to become a lawyer should not attend a school that gives them a 50% chance of doing so

Again, this is not happening in a vacuum. Idaho law is open enrollment. Someone with legit credentials is more likely to clean up than not.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby whitespider » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:55 pm

How about this...

If he's living with his parents and has a decent job (25k+) then this is certainly a bad idea. He should save up cash, retake the LSAT and attend for free once he's saved up enough cash to pay for living expenses at a better school with a full scholly.

If he's stuck in a dead end shitty job or is unemployed and lives alone with no way to save up cash, then it isn't the worst gamble ever. Though he'd still be better off waiting a year and retaking the LSAT.

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:57 pm

Will_McAvoy wrote:Yeah what is one who really wants to practice in Idaho supposed to do, then?

If hypothetical lifelong Idahoan graduates with ~T14 numbers but does not want to leave Idaho and has otherwise average job prospects, a full ride to Idaho is not a life or death coin flip. If the LSAT provides any predicative validity, we can pretty safely assume said Idahoan will be in the upper half of the grade distribution -- half of his classmates will have scored less than a 152.

Not saying it's ideal, but if spending their life in Idaho is someone's most important factor in choosing a law school, fullsies there isn't suicidal.

i never said it was suicidal
i said it was not a good decision
(though it's funny how the number of suicidal options there actually are makes a simply poor option seem more reasonable here)

let me frame this a different way
say op wants to live in idaho, ultimately
wouldn't it be slightly more reasonable to a) retake
then b) go to a school in a region with a stronger job market
where he has better odds of finding employment
and then c) try to get back to idaho after working a few years?

in that scenario, even if he can't get back to idaho right away, he still has a legal job and can pay the bills

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby McAvoy » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:01 pm

Brut wrote:let me frame this a different way
say op wants to live in idaho, ultimately
wouldn't it be slightly more reasonable to a) retake
then b) go to a school in a region with a stronger job market
where he has better odds of finding employment
and then c) try to get back to idaho after working a few years?

Seems reasonable but I don't know enough about the law market in Idaho to say if it's a good idea. That's also not really the question that was originally posed (I thought?).

Are you saying they should go to like UW? There aren't any strong regionals in the immediate area, and I'd have a hard time believing UW makes for a better long term career in Idaho than Idaho (where the person would have a big local network built up from LS and share an alma mater with almost every attorney in the state).

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby 03152016 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:01 pm

Will_McAvoy wrote:
Brut wrote:someone who has a strong desire to become a lawyer should not attend a school that gives them a 50% chance of doing so

Again, this is not happening in a vacuum. Idaho law is open enrollment. Someone with legit credentials is more likely to clean up than not.

are they open enrollment?
their 509 says 653 apps and 364 offers
unless i'm misunderstanding what open enrollment means?

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Re: The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:02 pm

Honestly, though, I don't think anyone in Idaho would give a shit if you went to a better school and worked elsewhere. This is a small, regional market, and it's going to be about as insular as anywhere in the country. It's true that going to a better school elsewhere would give you more options outside of Idaho, but I really don't think it's going to get you to Idaho. Law firms/other employers filled with Idaho grads aren't going to care about other schools.



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