UT instate tuition vs GW $50k Forum

[yungboitron]

Hey y'all, first time poster, long time lurker.

I was all set to go to GW, paid my deposits, signed an apt lease and filed for loans, but yesterday got an email saying I was "one of a very select few" who UT is extending offers to now.

As I'm a Texas resident, I would be able to attend for $33k, as compared to around $36k for GW (including my scholarship). I think it's also worth mentioning that DC is a more expensive area in general.
Texas is ranked 15th, but as both aren't T-14 schools, what's the difference between 15 and 20? Is it worth bailing on my plans to attend? I asked GW if they could give me more scholarship money but they said they had already depleted their funds.
I went to UT for undergrad and was born in Austin, so the positive thing on GW's side of the T-chart is essentially "life experience, personal sentiments, etc."

what do y'all think? UT said I have 48 hours to decide.

edit:
165/3.75, took it twice
took out 60k in loans, parents will help me out as well
career goals: get a good job, preferably in environmental/international, though to be honest I'm not entirely sure what field I want to practice in yet.

[KD35]

Where do you want to practice after law school?

[jr8966]

I went through the same decision you're about to make 3 years ago. Some things to consider-

GW's scholarship stipulations. I received one as well 105K, but I could not for the love of god get them to take off the stipulations. That was a deal breaker for me. Law school is already risky in this current economic environment, why add more risk?

Do you want to come back to Texas after graduation? If yes, then I wouldn't even consider GW. I cannot understate how important ties are in the Texas market. That is not including some employers who expect you to be from Houston, Dallas, or BumFnowhere. I'm originally from Texas, so I knew that coming back was a big goal of mine. I lived in DC for 5 years before going back to law school. I was ready to move back home and I was a bit tired of being a mouse on a wheel.

What type of work do you want to do? I will say this, DC is a nice place to be if you want to do prestigious government work. I know DC is saturated with every graduate from the Top-14 and local favorites like Georgetown and UVA, but being in the city is a big advantage. DC is one of the few places where you can start off as a lowly staffer and work your way into the White House. GW definitely has a network.

In the end I chose UT because of the atmosphere, low sticker price, and being closer to home. Trust me, when you're working your butt off in law school you better enjoy the environment.

[yungboitron]

Where do you want to practice after law school?

I haven't decided really; everything would be on the table, essentially. My plan was to just go to law school and see what happens afterwards. I've even been toying with the idea of practicing in China, as I have a lot of connex there (i'm in China right now).
I was really excited to move away from Austin though, since I've lived there my whole life. I don't know how to evaluate my personal sentiments versus the facts that UT is better and cheaper. and they also give out grants!

[Ramius]

Where do you want to practice after law school?

I haven't decided really; everything would be on the table, essentially. My plan was to just go to law school and see what happens afterwards. I've even been toying with the idea of practicing in China, as I have a lot of connex there (i'm in China right now).
I was really excited to move away from Austin though, since I've lived there my whole life. I don't know how to evaluate my personal sentiments versus the facts that UT is better and cheaper. and they also give out grants!

First off, UT is hardly "better." Second...

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

[03152016]

it'd be helpful if you included more information in your op
since we have only a vague picture of your situation, i'll say that both options are far too expensive given the schools in question
i couldn't in good conscience recommend either

[yungboitron]

I went through the same decision you're about to make 3 years ago. Some things to consider-

GW's scholarship stipulations. I received one as well 105K, but I could not for the love of god get them to take off the stipulations. That was a deal breaker for me. Law school is already risky in this current economic environment, why add more risk?

Do you want to come back to Texas after graduation? If yes, then I wouldn't even consider GW. I cannot understate how important ties are in the Texas market. That is not including some employers who expect you to be from Houston, Dallas, or BumFnowhere. I'm originally from Texas, so I knew that coming back was a big goal of mine. I lived in DC for 5 years before going back to law school. I was ready to move back home and I was a bit tired of being a mouse on a wheel.

What type of work do you want to do? I will say this, DC is a nice place to be if you want to do prestigious government work. I know DC is saturated with every graduate from the Top-14 and local favorites like Georgetown and UVA, but being in the city is a big advantage. DC is one of the few places where you can start off as a lowly staffer and work your way into the White House. GW definitely has a network.

In the end I chose UT because of the atmosphere, low sticker price, and being closer to home. Trust me, when you're working your butt off in law school you better enjoy the environment.

All excellent points.
I think my scholarship has no stipulations other than academic good standing.

At this point in time, I don't think I want to practice in Texas, but who knows- after 3 years in DC, I might also be "tired of being a mouse on a wheel." I've always loved Austin, I just think a change of scenery would be good for me. I used to live right across the street from the UT law school >_<

I am unsure of what kind of law I want to practice. I was thinking environmental, but that was before I took out loans.

I've already signed the lease for a really nice apartment in Virginia, right across the river from the law school. I think the environment is conducive to studying. Also Virginia is beautiful and it isn't so damn hot all the time.

[TheSpanishMain]

Law schools shouldn't be picked on the basis of "I want a temporary change of scenery." Regional schools like GW and UT can really lock you into an area for the long term, so this isn't a great time to go off and have an adventure or something.

Also, I wouldn't do either at those costs. I'd sit out and retake, personally. UT is a great school for Texas, particularly Texas natives, but I for sure wouldn't do it at sticker. GW is also a decent school, particularly if you're looking to do IP stuff, but the cost is insane.

[yungboitron]

Law schools shouldn't be picked on the basis of "I want a temporary change of scenery." Regional schools like GW and UT can really lock you into an area for the long term, so this isn't a great time to go off and have an adventure or something.

Also, I wouldn't do either at those costs. I'd sit out and retake, personally. UT is a great school for Texas, particularly Texas natives, but I for sure wouldn't do it at sticker. GW is also a decent school, particularly if you're looking to do IP stuff, but the cost is insane.

agreed, however, i don't remember using the word "temporary" or any other synonym for short term. I understand that I'll most likely stay in the area where I attend school. Thanks for warning me against having adventures, though.

Both of my options aren't that great, but I think I'll manage fine in the long term. I don't want to retake it again and sit out for a year.

[yungboitron]

Where do you want to practice after law school?

I haven't decided really; everything would be on the table, essentially. My plan was to just go to law school and see what happens afterwards. I've even been toying with the idea of practicing in China, as I have a lot of connex there (i'm in China right now).
I was really excited to move away from Austin though, since I've lived there my whole life. I don't know how to evaluate my personal sentiments versus the facts that UT is better and cheaper. and they also give out grants!

First off, UT is hardly "better." Second...

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

better, as in better ranked. 15 > 20, if i'm not mistaken

[03152016]

what do you mean 'not that great'?
since you apparently refuse to provide any relevant information about your situation
i assume you are an average applicant, for which either option is just horrifying
without any hyperbole, i wouldn't wish these options on my very worst enemy
good luck op

[BigZuck]

Yo Matt- I hate to be a homer and I think I'm pretty fair when it comes to assessing UT, but...How do you figure that UT isn't solidly better than GWU?

OP- I go to UT (obvi). I don't think it's worth in state sticker. You sound like you're K-JD (or close to it) and a 3.8+/Low 160 type. You have got to retake the LSAT. If you don't want to be in TX long term that's fine, but don't go to UT. Snag a good scholarship at a T14 and go to a school that might give you some semblance of options. Perhaps even international ones if you do really well. You're really not on a good path right now. You need to get a bit more direction. Another year of studying for and retaking the LSAT and working should hopefully do you a lot of good and hopefully help make things a little clearer for you.

Also, environmental law isn't much of a thing and whatever it is its probably not what you imagine it to be. And I highly doubt there's a lot of jobs in international environmental law if you're looking to combine the two.

I'm not saying any of this to be mean, I was right there in your shoes. And I was way older! But retaking/reapplying was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

[03152016]

just checked in-state debt-financed sticker
that baby is almost $200k
good lord

GW with 50k scholly is close to $240k
good lord

[BigZuck]

just checked in-state debt-financed sticker
that baby is almost $200k
good lord

GW with 50k scholly is close to $240k
good lord

Srsly

UT figure sounds a bit high (I know its based on total COA numbers reported by the school). I think you could maybe get by in Austin on 15K a year COL but that plus 100K tution plus interest and all the good stuff puts you at at least 170K

Didn't catch this though- would he be living with his parents? If its just tuition at UT it might be defensible. I wouldn't do it, but it might be defensible. I especially wouldn't do it if all that was standing in my way of a free 60K+ was a retake/reapply. But 110Kish debt might be defensible.

[Ramius]

Yo Matt- I hate to be a homer and I think I'm pretty fair when it comes to assessing UT, but...How do you figure that UT isn't solidly better than GWU?

OP- I go to UT (obvi). I don't think it's worth in state sticker. You sound like you're K-JD (or close to it) and a 3.8+/Low 160 type. You have got to retake the LSAT. If you don't want to be in TX long term that's fine, but don't go to UT. Snag a good scholarship at a T14 and go to a school that might give you some semblance of options. Perhaps even international ones if you do really well. You're really not on a good path right now. You need to get a bit more direction. Another year of studying for and retaking the LSAT and working should hopefully do you a lot of good and hopefully help make things a little clearer for you.

Also, environmental law isn't much of a thing and whatever it is its probably not what you imagine it to be. And I highly doubt there's a lot of jobs in international environmental law if you're looking to combine the two.

I'm not saying any of this to be mean, I was right there in your shoes. And I was way older! But retaking/reapplying was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

Honestly, all I meant was that it is partially dependent on what you want. UT dominates GW on LST and in most cases for employment.

But...if you're looking for IP or DC explicitly, GW may make more sense if it's at an equal cost. UT=GW for many career goals. UT wins because it's almost univerally cheaper.

So, while UT>GW for most, it's not universally true.

[BigZuck]

Yo Matt- I hate to be a homer and I think I'm pretty fair when it comes to assessing UT, but...How do you figure that UT isn't solidly better than GWU?

OP- I go to UT (obvi). I don't think it's worth in state sticker. You sound like you're K-JD (or close to it) and a 3.8+/Low 160 type. You have got to retake the LSAT. If you don't want to be in TX long term that's fine, but don't go to UT. Snag a good scholarship at a T14 and go to a school that might give you some semblance of options. Perhaps even international ones if you do really well. You're really not on a good path right now. You need to get a bit more direction. Another year of studying for and retaking the LSAT and working should hopefully do you a lot of good and hopefully help make things a little clearer for you.

Also, environmental law isn't much of a thing and whatever it is its probably not what you imagine it to be. And I highly doubt there's a lot of jobs in international environmental law if you're looking to combine the two.

I'm not saying any of this to be mean, I was right there in your shoes. And I was way older! But retaking/reapplying was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

Honestly, all I meant was that it is partially dependent on what you want. UT dominates GW on LST and in most cases for employment.

But...if you're looking for IP or DC explicitly, GW may make more sense if it's at an equal cost. UT=GW for many career goals. UT wins because it's almost univerally cheaper.

So, while UT>GW for most, it's not universally true.

Fair enough. I'm not super convinced that UT wouldn't be as good even for DC big law or IP just based on my super small sampling of how rising 2Ls are doing so far with employment out of the state of Texas. Self-selection is a term that gets thrown around a lot and I tend to think that's BS but now I wonder if there might be some truth to that. Also, there's no way any of that can be quantified until we know every firm's cutoffs at each school (and we never will). But yeah, I would definitely take GW if I wanted to work in DC all things being equal, if only for proximity.

Anyway, both schools are very good regional schools at their core and that's what the OP should take away.

[Ramius]

I'm not super convinced that UT wouldn't be as good even for DC big law or IP just based on my super small sampling of how rising 2Ls are doing so far with employment out of the state of Texas.

It's tough when we don't have data, but wouldn't this also suggest that GW would be equally effective in Texas as well by this logic? I know Texas is colloquial by nature, but I doubt UT has a significantly different cutoff from GW for Texas SAs. While more UT students are selected for SAs in Texas, there is nothing to suggest that is nothing more than self selection.

[mw115]

UT grad here, but I think for any place other than DC, Texas has more value than GW.

[BigZuck]

I'm not super convinced that UT wouldn't be as good even for DC big law or IP just based on my super small sampling of how rising 2Ls are doing so far with employment out of the state of Texas.

It's tough when we don't have data, but wouldn't this also suggest that GW would be equally effective in Texas as well by this logic? I know Texas is colloquial by nature, but I doubt UT has a significantly different cutoff from GW for Texas SAs. While more UT students are selected for SAs in Texas, there is nothing to suggest that is nothing more than self selection.

By the logic? Sure. I don't really think that's actually true though. And I would say with 100% confidence that its easier to get Texas big law from UT than from GW.

I think when you look at things like federal clerkship placement that shows that UT is stronger nationally. I also think GW's massive school funded contingent says something. Doesn't really matter though, I agree with you pretty much 100%. I really don't know much about UT's placement in DC, that was more me thinking aloud that anything. I have been surprised at how well UT students have done in places like CA so far this cycle and wonder if that's representative of anything (but again, it's super early and super tiny sample size). I don't really have a good handle on GW's placement in DC either. All the IP stuff really is beyond me.

[TheSpanishMain]

agreed, however, i don't remember using the word "temporary" or any other synonym for short term. I understand that I'll most likely stay in the area where I attend school. Thanks for warning me against having adventures, though.

I'm not trying to patronize you. It read to me like you just wanted to get out of Texas for a bit. If that's not the case, sorry I misread your post.

Both of my options aren't that great, but I think I'll manage fine in the long term. I don't want to retake it again and sit out for a year.

So....you're willing to put up with mountains of debt and make your life miserable for years to come just to avoid a retake? Why? That's insane. Do you have wealthy parents footing the bill or something? Help me understand.

better, as in better ranked. 15 > 20, if i'm not mistaken

Rankings differences like these do not matter in the slightest.

[Ramius]

Where do you want to practice after law school?

I haven't decided really; everything would be on the table, essentially. My plan was to just go to law school and see what happens afterwards. I've even been toying with the idea of practicing in China, as I have a lot of connex there (i'm in China right now).
I was really excited to move away from Austin though, since I've lived there my whole life. I don't know how to evaluate my personal sentiments versus the facts that UT is better and cheaper. and they also give out grants!

First off, UT is hardly "better." Second...

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

better, as in better ranked. 15 > 20, if i'm not mistaken

Oh, so in ways that don't matter. Cool bro.

[Paul Campos]

Harsh but fair assessment from a JDU poster on why GW still gets 6000+ applicants per cycle:

There are at least two factors behind this phenomenon (both laughably pathetic) that have not been mentioned yet.

1. Aimless liberal arts grad comes to DC to work in a retarded entry level job, realizes that it's boring and pathetic, concludes that becoming a lawyer will solve all of his / her problems (without doing even an hour's worth of diligence to figure out what life will likely be like after graduation). Wants to stay in DC to be near friends / current significant other. (There are hordes upon hordes of idiots like this.)

2. Aimless liberal arts grad, who may or may not have any connection to DC, wants to go in law school in DC because of some nebulous, half-baked, nonspecific interest in working in "politics," "government," or "nonprofit." (Again, fails to do even basic diligence as to likelihood of getting such a job / what job would entail / likely financial situation after graduation / likelihood of ever affording a home of any kind within 40 miles of DC.)

Of course compared to American GW is practically Yale, so there's that.

[Informative]

UT if you want to work in Texas. GW if you want to work in D.C.

I'd go with UT, but the decision is personal to you.

[Nomo]

The prices aren't great. And GW at that price is certainly not worth it. But if you really want to be a lawyer in Texas then you could take in state tuition there.

But here's the thing. You aren't getting international law from either. You might get environmental work at a law firm. If you want to be on the "save the planet" side of environmental disputes then you're probably SOL, though your chances are better than international law. You strike me as someone who should not go to law school yet because you're goals seem very uncertain. You're talking about spending a lot of time and money for such an uncertain set of goals.

[Nammertat]

The prices aren't great. And GW at that price is certainly not worth it. But if you really want to be a lawyer in Texas then you could take in state tuition there.

But here's the thing. You aren't getting international law from either. You might get environmental work at a law firm. If you want to be on the "save the planet" side of environmental disputes then you're probably SOL, though your chances are better than international law. You strike me as someone who should not go to law school yet because you're goals seem very uncertain. You're talking about spending a lot of time and money for such an uncertain set of goals.

I agree with this 90%. With your lack of clarity in goals, I don't think either of these are worthy options. If you had come in here with the exact same finacnial considerations, and said I have relevant degrees & experience, and want to work in TX doing oil & gas litigation, I'd say you should definitely go to UT. Likewise, if you came in and said I have a background in computer science and I want to work in DC/NYC/SF doing IP litigation, I'd say have at it.

Nomo's spot on here though.... you can't come out of the gate with marginal options and say I want to do something in [wildly differing, and high-barrier-to-entry career paths], and trust that things are going to work out just fine.