There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls Forum

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JCougar

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:56 pm

The funny thing is that the ABA could have avoided this total embarrassment of the legal industry by more closely regulating law schools and tuition--but they chose to stand aside and simply let things get totally out of control.

I don't think there's any hope for this industry until it switches to a medical school model. Firms and government agencies need to establish like 2-year post-graduation residencies, and they need to tighten up admissions standards while limiting the number of law school seats to only those who they can place into residency. It's either that, or slash tuition by like 80% across the board, down to like $10,000 per year max (otherwise you lose accreditation). That way, if you strike out at OCI and can't get a law job, you can at least manage that debt with a salary from a different career.

Problem is, this would cause at least 50 or so law schools to simply close, and the remaining 150 to slash their class size even further. And that means less pay for the foxes guarding the ABA Section on Legal Education henhouse.

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withoutapaddle

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by withoutapaddle » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:40 pm

I know one person who didn't have a good answer to "how would it make you feel defending XXX mega-corp against a lawsuit from XXX wildlife foundation" and didn't get any callbacks.
You said 160K plus bonus starting salary? I'll go defend XXX mega-corp right now.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:30 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:
I know one person who didn't have a good answer to "how would it make you feel defending XXX mega-corp against a lawsuit from XXX wildlife foundation" and didn't get any callbacks.
You said 160K plus bonus starting salary? I'll go defend XXX mega-corp right now.
That's probably an ok answer...lol.

A better one would be:

The legal system is an adversarial system system, which means that each side, no matter its guilt or innocence, deserves impeccable and intelligent representation from zealous and committed counsel. It is not for a lawyer as an advocate to decide what is right and what is wrong--that decision is for the judge on the law and, if applicable, the jury on the facts. My job would be simply to provide that committed representation to any and all of your clients, and to do whatever possible within legal and ethical rules to help your client win.

Or if you get some less-formal types:

My job with you would be to strongly represent your clients interest no matter what the claims, but in the moral sense, it's just as likely an environmental advocacy organization is in the wrong. They are subject to their donors' whims, whether or not these whims are rational or whether or not they have a legal basis. Thus, public interest organizations are pressured to file a lot of frivolous lawsuits simply to justify their own existence and generate newspaper headlines that satisfy current donors and recruit new ones. The bottom line, though, is that your clients' money is not theirs to take simply because your client has a lot of money to begin with--which is what most of these lawsuits are about anyways.

I wouldn't try that last one unless the partners you are interviewing with are real dicks...which is entirely possible. One time I was talking with a partner at a networking event about employment discrimination defense, and out of the blue, he started saying a bunch of racist shit to me. I mean, just because I'm a white male with prior corporate experience doesn't mean that I'm "on your side" or something. God, that was really awkward.

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withoutapaddle

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by withoutapaddle » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:40 pm

Those are good answers. Mine was more short and sweet. Letting my future employer know that I will deny deny deny for any client for 160K+

And making racist comments to anyone, especially in a business setting, is not an intelligent thing to do.
Last edited by withoutapaddle on Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by Power_of_Facing » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:41 pm

JCougar wrote:
withoutapaddle wrote:
I know one person who didn't have a good answer to "how would it make you feel defending XXX mega-corp against a lawsuit from XXX wildlife foundation" and didn't get any callbacks.
You said 160K plus bonus starting salary? I'll go defend XXX mega-corp right now.
That's probably an ok answer...lol.

A better one would be:

The legal system is an adversarial system system, which means that each side, no matter its guilt or innocence, deserves impeccable and intelligent representation from zealous and committed counsel. It is not for a lawyer as an advocate to decide what is right and what is wrong--that decision is for the judge on the law and, if applicable, the jury on the facts. My job would be simply to provide that committed representation to any and all of your clients, and to do whatever possible within legal and ethical rules to help your client win.

Or if you get some less-formal types:

My job with you would be to strongly represent your clients interest no matter what the claims, but in the moral sense, it's just as likely an environmental advocacy organization is in the wrong. They are subject to their donors' whims, whether or not these whims are rational or whether or not they have a legal basis. Thus, public interest organizations are pressured to file a lot of frivolous lawsuits simply to justify their own existence and generate newspaper headlines that satisfy current donors and recruit new ones. The bottom line, though, is that your clients' money is not theirs to take simply because your client has a lot of money to begin with--which is what most of these lawsuits are about anyways.

I wouldn't try that last one unless the partners you are interviewing with are real dicks...which is entirely possible. One time I was talking with a partner at a networking event about employment discrimination defense, and out of the blue, he started saying a bunch of racist shit to me. I mean, just because I'm a white male with prior corporate experience doesn't mean that I'm "on your side" or something. God, that was really awkward.
I hope you told him to take that garbage somewhere else -- where the sun don't shine, namely.

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JCougar

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:04 pm

withoutapaddle wrote: And making racist comments to anyone, especially in a business setting, is not an intelligent thing to do.
Quite a few Biglaw partners are not all that intelligent. Some went to school like 30-40 years ago, when Biglaw was less-strict about grades, and there was less competition for LSAT scores among schools, since US News wasn't around yet. And LSAT/grades are only a very rough measure of intelligence anyway, so there's always dumbs that somehow slip through.

I thought that was really unprofessional, but I had the same impression of that firm before that. One of my friends worked there as a secretary and got fired for making out with one of the married partners in the cloak room of the Christmas party...and got caught. Of course they fired her and not the partner.

One of their other partners is now the Chairman of the national GOP...so there's that as well.

If you read Above the Law for a few years, you realize Biglaw can get sleazy. These partners think they're god's gift to all of creation, and they're used to people kissing their ass all day, etc. After you get treated like that for a while, you get to thinking you can basically do anything you want and get away with it. So you see some of them doing some really stupid shit and risking multi-million dollar salaries for weird, personal fetishes.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by ManoftheHour » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:26 pm

JCougar wrote:The legal system is an adversarial system system, which means that each side, no matter its guilt or innocence, deserves impeccable and intelligent representation from zealous and committed counsel. It is not for a lawyer as an advocate to decide what is right and what is wrong--that decision is for the judge on the law and, if applicable, the jury on the facts. My job would be simply to provide that committed representation to any and all of your clients, and to do whatever possible within legal and ethical rules to help your client win.

Or if you get some less-formal types:

My job with you would be to strongly represent your clients interest no matter what the claims, but in the moral sense, it's just as likely an environmental advocacy organization is in the wrong. They are subject to their donors' whims, whether or not these whims are rational or whether or not they have a legal basis. Thus, public interest organizations are pressured to file a lot of frivolous lawsuits simply to justify their own existence and generate newspaper headlines that satisfy current donors and recruit new ones. The bottom line, though, is that your clients' money is not theirs to take simply because your client has a lot of money to begin with--which is what most of these lawsuits are about anyways.
Coug, this is 180.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by ymmv » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:38 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
JCougar wrote:The legal system is an adversarial system system, which means that each side, no matter its guilt or innocence, deserves impeccable and intelligent representation from zealous and committed counsel. It is not for a lawyer as an advocate to decide what is right and what is wrong--that decision is for the judge on the law and, if applicable, the jury on the facts. My job would be simply to provide that committed representation to any and all of your clients, and to do whatever possible within legal and ethical rules to help your client win.

Or if you get some less-formal types:

My job with you would be to strongly represent your clients interest no matter what the claims, but in the moral sense, it's just as likely an environmental advocacy organization is in the wrong. They are subject to their donors' whims, whether or not these whims are rational or whether or not they have a legal basis. Thus, public interest organizations are pressured to file a lot of frivolous lawsuits simply to justify their own existence and generate newspaper headlines that satisfy current donors and recruit new ones. The bottom line, though, is that your clients' money is not theirs to take simply because your client has a lot of money to begin with--which is what most of these lawsuits are about anyways.
Coug, this is 180.
Totally stealing this.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by sublime » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:51 pm

..

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by FlanAl » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:06 pm

rahulg91 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
rahulg91 wrote:
JCougar wrote:While a lot of them will have dropped out of law entirely/jumped out of an office window by the time 2017 rolls around, it's safe to say that some of these people will lateral in and absorb some of these jobs.
Why is this safe to say.
Because it does happen. People do lateral into good plaintiff firms, government and sometimes even Biglaw depending on what they're volunteering/clerking for. It doesn't happen very often, and your chances are very slim, but it does happen. Given that there's so many underemployed JDs from the last 4 classes out there right now--and given that law firms are consciously trying to be more efficient in light of client pressure and bring in people that at least know how to handle a case--I can see this pool of underemployed attorneys filling a bit more spots in the near future.
Your logic just seems a little off on this point. You're saying this is how things typically are, this is how things typically are, and then you bring about this point of this pool of underemployed lawyers who (a) at this point will have been un/underemployed for 3-4 years, and (b) are not typically hired by firms, and try to make the argument that they will be hired at semi-significant numbers.

Either someone that hasn't traditionally happened will all of a sudden start happening, or firms will not start hiring these attorneys are significant numbers. I guess I need to know more about hiring practices, but from what I've read/heard firms mostly recruit new grads/laterals from other firms, not those who struck out originally.
The NYC/DC/Chi big law club is a completely different club from the law firm club in general. My understanding is that mid-small law has pretty much always hired more or less underemployed attorneys and never recent grads. The recent grad is not going to be able to beat out someone who is bar certified (i.e. can actually do work for the firm) and has a few years of part-time/volunteer experience.

Major metro big from hiring might get a little better for t14 grads simply because of smaller class sizes. The author of the article might be in touch with how big law hiring works in-terms of recent grads being preferred but completely missed the mark by not mentioning that these firms do not hire outside of the t14 and to a lesser extent the t20.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:26 pm

FlanAl wrote: The author of the article might be in touch with how big law hiring works in-terms of recent grads being preferred but completely missed the mark by not mentioning that these firms do not hire outside of the t14 and to a lesser extent the t20.
Thing is, there's enough under-employed graduates from the bottom end of the T14 and especially the T20 that have been volunteering/shitlawyering/temping for a year or two to satisfy this demand. Even within the T20, there's more people who strike out than get Biglaw. And government with all its hiring freezes, etc. isn't soaking these people up. These people will gladly jump at the first Biglaw job offered to them after 1-2 years of volunteering has added another $30K of accrued interest to their debt pile.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by SouthernBelle22 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:52 am

JCougar wrote:
withoutapaddle wrote:
I know one person who didn't have a good answer to "how would it make you feel defending XXX mega-corp against a lawsuit from XXX wildlife foundation" and didn't get any callbacks.
You said 160K plus bonus starting salary? I'll go defend XXX mega-corp right now.
That's probably an ok answer...lol.

A better one would be:

The legal system is an adversarial system system, which means that each side, no matter its guilt or innocence, deserves impeccable and intelligent representation from zealous and committed counsel. It is not for a lawyer as an advocate to decide what is right and what is wrong--that decision is for the judge on the law and, if applicable, the jury on the facts. My job would be simply to provide that committed representation to any and all of your clients, and to do whatever possible within legal and ethical rules to help your client win.

Or if you get some less-formal types:

My job with you would be to strongly represent your clients interest no matter what the claims, but in the moral sense, it's just as likely an environmental advocacy organization is in the wrong. They are subject to their donors' whims, whether or not these whims are rational or whether or not they have a legal basis. Thus, public interest organizations are pressured to file a lot of frivolous lawsuits simply to justify their own existence and generate newspaper headlines that satisfy current donors and recruit new ones. The bottom line, though, is that your clients' money is not theirs to take simply because your client has a lot of money to begin with--which is what most of these lawsuits are about anyways.

I wouldn't try that last one unless the partners you are interviewing with are real dicks...which is entirely possible. One time I was talking with a partner at a networking event about employment discrimination defense, and out of the blue, he started saying a bunch of racist shit to me. I mean, just because I'm a white male with prior corporate experience doesn't mean that I'm "on your side" or something. God, that was really awkward.
I'm sorry y'all, but this response is kinda cookie cutter and coming from another person's perspective, it still wouldn't make you stand out that much

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by ManoftheHour » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:10 am

SouthernBelle22 wrote: I'm sorry y'all, but this response is kinda cookie cutter and coming from another person's perspective, it still wouldn't make you stand out that much
You don't want to stand out in big law. Those that do are the 5% that get no offered and join the vale of tears.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:22 am

ManoftheHour wrote:
SouthernBelle22 wrote: I'm sorry y'all, but this response is kinda cookie cutter and coming from another person's perspective, it still wouldn't make you stand out that much
You don't want to stand out in big law. Those that do are the 5% that get no offered and join the vale of tears.
This.

Biglaw doesn't want people with opinions. They want people to come in and bill hours and review/edit documents. Giving an intellectual yet totally bland response is exactly what they're looking for.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by rahulg91 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:28 am

JCougar wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
SouthernBelle22 wrote: I'm sorry y'all, but this response is kinda cookie cutter and coming from another person's perspective, it still wouldn't make you stand out that much
You don't want to stand out in big law. Those that do are the 5% that get no offered and join the vale of tears.
This.

Biglaw doesn't want people with opinions. They want people to come in and bill hours and review/edit documents. Giving an intellectual yet totally bland response is exactly what they're looking for.
Wait wut. This is another piece of TLS logic that's always confused me. Lets say you beat the odds and make biglaw. After doing this you're supposed to try as hard as possible to NOT stand out? Aren't most people (that don't quit) told to leave after year 5? You'd think the best way to avoid being fired is to stick out (in a good way preferably)...

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by moonman157 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:36 am

rahulg91 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
SouthernBelle22 wrote: I'm sorry y'all, but this response is kinda cookie cutter and coming from another person's perspective, it still wouldn't make you stand out that much
You don't want to stand out in big law. Those that do are the 5% that get no offered and join the vale of tears.
This.

Biglaw doesn't want people with opinions. They want people to come in and bill hours and review/edit documents. Giving an intellectual yet totally bland response is exactly what they're looking for.
Wait wut. This is another piece of TLS logic that's always confused me. Lets say you beat the odds and make biglaw. After doing this you're supposed to try as hard as possible to NOT stand out? Aren't most people (that don't quit) told to leave after year 5? You'd think the best way to avoid being fired is to stick out (in a good way preferably)...
Part of the problem is that most of the time when people think they're sticking out in a good way, they're sticking out in a bad way (see the kid who try to negotiate with the named partner about opening another office and being made a partner, or the person who had his offer rescinded after he talked about trying to bring in business before his summer even started)

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by rpupkin » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:50 am

rahulg91 wrote: Wait wut. This is another piece of TLS logic that's always confused me. Lets say you beat the odds and make biglaw. After doing this you're supposed to try as hard as possible to NOT stand out? Aren't most people (that don't quit) told to leave after year 5? You'd think the best way to avoid being fired is to stick out (in a good way preferably)...
Yeah, but you don't want to stick out by spouting unorthodox philosophical opinions about the adversarial system. You want to stick out by billing a lot, doing competent work, and impressing clients.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by Tanicius » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:08 pm

rahulg91 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
SouthernBelle22 wrote: I'm sorry y'all, but this response is kinda cookie cutter and coming from another person's perspective, it still wouldn't make you stand out that much
You don't want to stand out in big law. Those that do are the 5% that get no offered and join the vale of tears.
This.

Biglaw doesn't want people with opinions. They want people to come in and bill hours and review/edit documents. Giving an intellectual yet totally bland response is exactly what they're looking for.
Wait wut. This is another piece of TLS logic that's always confused me. Lets say you beat the odds and make biglaw. After doing this you're supposed to try as hard as possible to NOT stand out? Aren't most people (that don't quit) told to leave after year 5? You'd think the best way to avoid being fired is to stick out (in a good way preferably)...
No. You essentially are not entitled to be an interesting or eccentric person until after you've achieved rainmaker status. Even junior partners are on very short leashes. If you're not making money for the firm, nobody cares about your opinion on just about anything. Soon as you demonstrate hardcore value to the firm though, you can become a shouting, abusive ass and work 8pm to noon, and they'll keep you on hell or high water.
Last edited by Tanicius on Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ManoftheHour

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by ManoftheHour » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:10 pm

This guy stood out by trying to stand out and bring in more work. Look what happened to him:

--LinkRemoved--

From the article:
"Once you get the job, though, you can help yourself to a warm glass of shut the hell up. Nobody cares about your ideas, your plans, your dreams, or your stupid commute. “Here is a box of documents, see you tomorrow.”

Associates aren’t supposed to take initiative, they’re supposed to take orders. Remember that when you get your first job."

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by sfoglia » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:37 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:This guy stood out by trying to stand out and bring in more work. Look what happened to him:

--LinkRemoved--

From the article:
"Once you get the job, though, you can help yourself to a warm glass of shut the hell up. Nobody cares about your ideas, your plans, your dreams, or your stupid commute. “Here is a box of documents, see you tomorrow.”

Associates aren’t supposed to take initiative, they’re supposed to take orders. Remember that when you get your first job."
If short for time, you don't even need to read the full letter. We can just focus in on this sign-off: "Please let me know your thoughts and feelings."

I'm sure he'd make a fantastic kindergarten teacher, though.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:43 pm

Yeah. They're looking for candidates that are willing to churn through bales and bales of paperwork and output the same, and do so an average of 12 hours a day without complaining or thinking they know anything--and most importantly, are not going to let their ideological inclinations or perceived "special snowflake" view of themselves get in the way of that.

You might make a lot of money in Biglaw, but in the general scheme of things, you are a totally replaceable and anonymous billable hour income conduit for the firm, and on any activity unrelated to that, you might as well keep your mouth closed.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by star fox » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:00 pm

JCougar wrote:Yeah. They're looking for candidates that are willing to churn through bales and bales of paperwork and output the same, and do so an average of 12 hours a day without complaining or thinking they know anything--and most importantly, are not going to let their ideological inclinations or perceived "special snowflake" view of themselves get in the way of that.

You might make a lot of money in Biglaw, but in the general scheme of things, you are a totally replaceable and anonymous billable hour income conduit for the firm, and on any activity unrelated to that, you might as well keep your mouth closed.
To be fair that's not unique to law. Nobody likes now it all entry levels anywhere. Conform or die.
Last edited by star fox on Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by jingosaur » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:00 pm

JCougar wrote:Yeah. They're looking for candidates that are willing to churn through bales and bales of paperwork and output the same, and do so an average of 12 hours a day without complaining or thinking they know anything--and most importantly, are not going to let their ideological inclinations or perceived "special snowflake" view of themselves get in the way of that.

You might make a lot of money in Biglaw, but in the general scheme of things, you are a totally replaceable and anonymous billable hour income conduit for the firm, and on any activity unrelated to that, you might as well keep your mouth closed.
What's a well-worded way to tell Biglaw recruiters that you're really good at being a billing-whore and not having opinions in the office because you used to work at a consulting firm that had the same values? Asking for a friend.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:46 pm

jingosaur wrote:
JCougar wrote:Yeah. They're looking for candidates that are willing to churn through bales and bales of paperwork and output the same, and do so an average of 12 hours a day without complaining or thinking they know anything--and most importantly, are not going to let their ideological inclinations or perceived "special snowflake" view of themselves get in the way of that.

You might make a lot of money in Biglaw, but in the general scheme of things, you are a totally replaceable and anonymous billable hour income conduit for the firm, and on any activity unrelated to that, you might as well keep your mouth closed.
What's a well-worded way to tell Biglaw recruiters that you're really good at being a billing-whore and not having opinions in the office because you used to work at a consulting firm that had the same values? Asking for a friend.
lol. Just say that you worked at a consulting firm and you enjoy serving clients.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by withoutapaddle » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:02 pm

How does consulting billing work? I never understood it

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
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