GGU (accepted) or USF (wl but should know soon) Forum

[TheSpanishMain]

How do you have so much money that sticker/finding a job are irrelevant, but your resume is a blank page?

[HRomanus]

One guy I went to my TTTTTTTTTT toilet bowl was mega rich. He just wanted to be lawyer. Didn't need to go to Yale and kill himself. For his needs, and mine, TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT sh*thole was good enough to get a degree and pass the bar. His claim to fame at this law school was taking his classmates out for drinks. After he graduated, he donated back to the school and has a meeting room named after him. The school was perfect for him.

Actually, it sounds like he was perfect for the school and they're laughing to the bank.

This kind of shit is socially irresponsible and morally reprehensible. If you're going to blow wads of cash, at least blow it on quality - cars, booze, suits, or whatever. Or consider what else your wasted cash could do, whether in charity or inheritance. Don't throw away your cash on a JD to feel worthwhile, be worthwhile and pass that money to people who truly need it to live and thrive.

[hawk5]

I'm still going to go through with law school because I'm already on track for it (have been for at least a year now), I'm still psyched about it (more than ever), and I don't have anything else to do that I can think of that would meet my goal of making me a professional of some sort.

Don't go to law school because you "can't think of anything else." You sound like you have money to burn so there are a million other things you could do to be "a professional of some sort" or have a positive impact on the world around you. If you really just want to be a "professional" you can get masters degrees in professional fields for a fraction of the time and cost of law school. They also have better job placement statistics.

But even better take that absurd amount of cash, ($33,000 a year for part-time program) to start a charity, create scholarships, or create your own business. I can imagine those options would be much more fulfilling and respected in the long term than obtaining a GGU law degree, and you might help someone else in the process. Four years and $132,000 is more than enough to get a business going and you could help employ people. You could put multiple inner-city kids through state school, start up soup kitchens, or create youth baseball leagues with that kind of money.

One guy I went to my TTTTTTTTTT toilet bowl was mega rich. He just wanted to be lawyer. Didn't need to go to Yale and kill himself. For his needs, and mine, TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT sh*thole was good enough to get a degree and pass the bar. His claim to fame at this law school was taking his classmates out for drinks. After he graduated, he donated back to the school and has a meeting room named after him. The school was perfect for him.

This makes me sick. I hope having a meeting room named after him at his local scam school makes him feel accomplished. That money could have been used in so many better ways to accomplish some social good - by cancer-research organizations, the make a wish foundation, or the wounded warrior project.

[johnnyquest]

I understand that GGU is considered a "toilet bowl" because it's at the low end of the US News scale.

No. U.S. News rankings are a joke. This school is a toilet because only 22% of graduates get law jobs. The school is literally the 2nd worst school in the United States (excluding Puerto Rico) when it comes to job statistics. LST links have been posted already, but here is one more...it's a national list of schools based on employment score. GGU is at the bottom.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/national/

Don't get scammed. Put the money to better use.

[marksteere]

I know you're not all "ivory tower" here at TLS, but you don't seem to appreciate what an opportunity school does. They provide an opportunity to candidates like me with such crappy qualifications that they wouldn't be admitted anywhere else. The tradeoff is that you probably won't graduate, pass the bar, and find work. Probably not. That's a little better than definitely not. Your only valid objection seems to be that it's a very pricey, small chance at success. But in my case, as I've said, I don't care about the money.

Hawk's suggestion of starting a business instead with the money is a good one, and I've thought about that. But it's not as appealing as a law career. For one thing, it's the prestige. "I'm a lawyer" sounds a lot better than "I bought a smoothie franchise", at least to me. If I don't succeed at law school, I can just drop out and then explore other options. If I don't succeed at business, which I probably wouldn't because I'm not motivated for that, or skilled at that, I end up having to unload a failed business. Yuck.

I know the "toilet" has a low job placement rate, johnny. But I have low qualifications. That's the tradeoff. As I've said earlier in the thread, getting hired matters little to me, and the money matters not at all. I'm sure that one way or another I'll wrangle a few clients, if I get that far.

[Tanicius]

But if you look a little beyond the statistics, the GGU professors are well thought of, and they've got some good programs, especially in litigation. I know, I know. No school prepares you for the courtroom. But GGU makes a pretty good effort to do that. During the slow moments of my volunteership with the SF PD office, of which there were many, I read the profiles of the lawyers there. There were probably more graduates of GGU than any other school, if I remember correctly. Yes there were a lot of Boalt's and Hastings' etc., but not as many as GGU's. (I wish I still had access to the profiles so I could verify, but I don't.) The judge whose face I looked at every day during the murder trial was a GGU grad. GGU is not as hopeless as the endless "toilet bowl" analogies make it sound.

OP, I can personally vouch for the quality of GGU's trial advocacy programs. I've competed against Golden Gate students and they're as good as anywhere. It is quite typical, really, of schools on the lower end of the employment statistics to field top notch trial programs, in part because it is their only hope to get most of their students employed -- they need to give them tangible skills that the students can use to be their own bosses, because those students certainly aren't getting hired by other people.

It's also true that GGU can produce successes. Those successes are rare, but they do happen.

Here's the caveat, though. The caveat relating to all these people you've met who work in PD offices and courthouses as judges, etc, is that they had time to build their careers. Where you go to school is only part of your resume. After a few years' practice, if you've proven yourself, no one gives a shit where you went to school. This is particularly true for people who went to law school 30-40 years ago, back when going to law school was like going to med school, and going to a toilet school would still more or less guarantee you a decent shot at good jobs. The important point is that these people had time to develop their resumes beyond just having the name of their school on the piece of paper. You have to realize that you don't have that chance anymore. New hires at a public defender's office are viewed as an investment for the office -- the new people have value in that they will grow, become more experience, develop leadership capabilities, and become mentors and managers for other new attorneys once they have experience. New attorneys develop political power, lobbying power in their community, bargaining power with the prosecutors on the other side. They become wise and learned.

You will not be perceived that way. You're coming at this from a severe disadvantage. When you're interviewed, the employer will decide that it is not worth it to train you for a few years with the hope that you will stick around and pay dividends back to the office over the course of a 30-40-year career. They're not going to waste time thinking, "Well, maybe this guy can stick around until he's 95." They just not even going to spend time thinking about the possibilities. They simply won't hire you when you tell them you just graduated law school and you have zero years of actual courtroom experience trying cases. Your volunteer years will mean nothing -- every single other applicant you're competing against has that same level of volunteer experience, only they're in their 20's and 30's and have a lifetime of career development ahead of them. The other people you'll be competing against -- the people who are your age -- are also approaching the retirement period, only they have 30-40 years of experience already and have written book chapters on criminal defense and have tried 500 jury trials.

[jk148706]

Please don't line the pockets of GGU or USF as they scam people borrowing $200,000 who are ruining their lives. Please don't contribute to that.

[TheSpanishMain]

How do you have so much money that sticker/finding a job are irrelevant, but your resume is a blank page?

[jk148706]

How do you have so much money that sticker/finding a job are irrelevant, but your resume is a blank page?

I believe earlier itt he said he was a trust fund kid

Eta: yeah:

I haven't worked in decades. I'm a big, overgrown trust fund baby.

[TheSpanishMain]

How do you have so much money that sticker/finding a job are irrelevant, but your resume is a blank page?

I believe earlier itt he said he was a trust fund kid

Eta: yeah:

I haven't worked in decades. I'm a big, overgrown trust fund baby.

Oh goddamn. So this is just an ego/validation/Fredo Corleone wants
respect thing.

[twenty]

I'm probably going to get a lot of trash for this, but I'm not actually opposed to what OP's trying to do here.

To the people saying retake: He's not going to do much better next cycle even if he gets a 165+ score with his 2.3. He has no interest in leaving the NorCal area, so maybe he gets into Santa Clara or UC Hastings at sticker? Is that really so much better than GGU/USF? In either event, OP's going to have to call in a favor from an old friend/network to pick up a job -- and like he said, he doesn't really even care about being employed.

He's also not going to not go to law school. If I had 150k sitting around right now, I'd start a non-profit/buy real estate/use it for a T14 degree/whatever. But OP's absolutely convinced that the experience he'll have in law school will be more rewarding than any of those things. At the point where OP really doesn't see any difference between 10k for a correspondence school and 150k for USF, the money isn't a factor here because you'll never convince OP that it is. If the material ends up not being as interesting as he hoped, he'll drop out.

On the other hand, not to justify USF/GGU for sticker in any way, but I'm actually really supportive of older individuals that just want to pass the bar/whereas I'm less supportive of <30 year olds doing this. Why? Because 1) OP will hopefully have several boomer-era friends that have been attorneys for decades that can help him out and 2) because OP will have built up enough money to where he's able to hang a shingle much less "painfully" than a 26-year old with 300k in loans at 8.8% a year. The big reason why hanging up a shingle is such a terrible idea for new graduates is because they have no network/someone to come alongside them, and because they have no money + no expectation of making enough money to pay back loans quickly enough.

Just my thoughts.

[BigZuck]

OP- I'd rather you not go to law school at all and just donate all that money to charity. Law school will almost certainly be a waste of your money and a very expensive worthless piece of paper.

However, I get that you're still going to go through with it because you're delusional. That's why on behalf of society I am asking you to go to one of the cheaper state accredited schools. GGU doesn't offer any benefit over those schools. Donate the money you saved to charity. You get to feed your all-consuming delusions, and someone else can benefit from that money so at least it's not a 100% waste.

[HRomanus]

But in my case, as I've said, I don't care about the money.

There's a vast difference between having a disposable income and not caring about money. You certainly seem like the latter. How you want to live your life and what legacy you want to leave are entirely up to you. But I think it is socially irresponsible and morally reprehensible to throw abundant stacks of cash at a school so you can feel worthwhile saying you're a lawyer. Look at your city and see the needs and dreams of thousands of people. This thread is proof that money cannot buy happiness, but the lack of it certainly is a primary obstacle to happiness and fulfillment.

Ultimately, going into something for the social prestige is self-defeating. Most of your friends - especially if they're wealthy and successful - will see through the charade whether you're a GGU "lawyer" or something else. If you don't have the motivation or skills to succeed at business, don't go into business or law.

You have disposable income. That doesn't give you the right to not care about money. Don't try to feel worthwhile by getting a J.D. - be worthwhile by making an impact on others with your gift. There's immense social respect that comes from philanthropy - and immense self-worth. Find a cause that you strongly identify with and, if possible, the nonprofit organization that serves it. Speak with their executive director about ways you can become involved with the organization. This doesn't just mean writing checks - become active in their fundraising and community outreach activities. Make a difference in the lives of others, build your legacy, and gain self-worth and social prestige.

[BigZuck]

I'm probably going to get a lot of trash for this, but I'm not actually opposed to what OP's trying to do here.

To the people saying retake: He's not going to do much better next cycle even if he gets a 165+ score with his 2.3. He has no interest in leaving the NorCal area, so maybe he gets into Santa Clara or UC Hastings at sticker? Is that really so much better than GGU/USF? In either event, OP's going to have to call in a favor from an old friend/network to pick up a job -- and like he said, he doesn't really even care about being employed.

He's also not going to not go to law school. If I had 150k sitting around right now, I'd start a non-profit/buy real estate/use it for a T14 degree/whatever. But OP's absolutely convinced that the experience he'll have in law school will be more rewarding than any of those things. At the point where OP really doesn't see any difference between 10k for a correspondence school and 150k for USF, the money isn't a factor here because you'll never convince OP that it is. If the material ends up not being as interesting as he hoped, he'll drop out.

On the other hand, not to justify USF/GGU for sticker in any way, but I'm actually really supportive of older individuals that just want to pass the bar/whereas I'm less supportive of <30 year olds doing this. Why? Because 1) OP will hopefully have several boomer-era friends that have been attorneys for decades that can help him out and 2) because OP will have built up enough money to where he's able to hang a shingle much less "painfully" than a 26-year old with 300k in loans at 8.8% a year. The big reason why hanging up a shingle is such a terrible idea for new graduates is because they have no network/someone to come alongside them, and because they have no money + no expectation of making enough money to pay back loans quickly enough.

Just my thoughts.

That's all whatever to me. Paying like 140K to the scam artists that run GGU and perpetuating that school is the problem I have with it. I'd rather him pay 66K to the scam artist that runs Monterey College of Law (or wherever) than pay sticker at GGU. He has no reason to attend an ABA school.

But if this guy really is the rich loser burnout that he has portrayed himself to be ITT, he's going to drop out in like week 2 anyway so none of this really matters.

[marksteere]

OP, I can personally vouch for the quality of GGU's trial advocacy programs. I've competed against Golden Gate students and they're as good as anywhere.

Thank you!

Here's the caveat, though.

I know. Nobody wants to hire an old guy. If I pass the bar, a big if, I'll hang out a shingle, do some pro bono work, and wrangle a few clients.

[marksteere]

I'm probably going to get a lot of trash for this, but I'm not actually opposed to what OP's trying to do here.

Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement.

[timbs4339]

OP: I hate to continue harshing on you because the other posters have done it so well, but you're not really going against the big overgrown trust fund baby stereotype here. Rather than take that 150K and invest it in a worthwhile charity, get involved in philanthropy, etc. etc., you want to blow it all to attend a crappy law school so you can maybe feel better about yourself if you pass the bar (given that you don't seem to like standardized tests, I question the wisdom of that prediction) and try to wrangle up a few clients for whom you might, eventually accomplish some good.

I know this is America and you have the right to your conspicuous consumption, but come on. That 150K could go to so many other worthwhile places, especially in a city with the income inequality of SF, than lining the pockets of the hucksters at this school. Hell, you could fund three PD positions for experienced attorneys who would each help 100 clients per year.

[marksteere]

But in my case, as I've said, I don't care about the money.

There's a vast difference between having a disposable income and not caring about money. You certainly seem like the latter. How you want to live your life and what legacy you want to leave are entirely up to you. But I think it is socially irresponsible and morally reprehensible to throw abundant stacks of cash at a school so you can feel worthwhile saying you're a lawyer. Look at your city and see the needs and dreams of thousands of people. This thread is proof that money cannot buy happiness, but the lack of it certainly is a primary obstacle to happiness and fulfillment.

Ultimately, going into something for the social prestige is self-defeating. Most of your friends - especially if they're wealthy and successful - will see through the charade whether you're a GGU "lawyer" or something else. If you don't have the motivation or skills to succeed at business, don't go into business or law.

You have disposable income. That doesn't give you the right to not care about money. Don't try to feel worthwhile by getting a J.D. - be worthwhile by making an impact on others with your gift. There's immense social respect that comes from philanthropy - and immense self-worth. Find a cause that you strongly identify with and, if possible, the nonprofit organization that serves it. Speak with their executive director about ways you can become involved with the organization. This doesn't just mean writing checks - become active in their fundraising and community outreach activities. Make a difference in the lives of others, build your legacy, and gain self-worth and social prestige.

This is a good post, and I appreciate what you're saying, HRomanus. I'm not so rich that I could be a philanthropist. The money I spend will be an investment in myself. To be honest, I don't care about thousands of poor people. There really aren't any causes that I care about. Sorry, but again, just being honest. And I don't want to work with snotty socialites. That's something that would last about two weeks, at best.

[WheatThins]

What are you looking for? Someone to say to you "go for it buddy!"? No one cares about how or what you do. You're not making a decision based on anything except that it's something you want to do.

Fine, do it. If you haven't figured out how to put your time and excess money to good use at this point in your life - there's not much chance it'll come to you later. At the very least, you'll be saving whatever children you have from the risk of being a burnout trust fund kid like you.

Seriously, do what you want. Whether you buy a $200k car that you don't need or buy a worthless piece of paper that you don't need and can't use for the same price doesn't matter.

So good luck, I hope you enjoy law school. You probably will if you aren't stressed about things like doing well in classes and getting a job.

[lieph82]

The high-horseism here is unbelievable. I'd give the money to charity too, guys, but it's his money. He gets to do what he wants with it. He clearly understands that his employment prospects with a degree from either school will not be great, and he clearly doesn't really care. So why don't people stop trying to convince him to radically change who he is on the spot, and leave the thread for people who can give their opinions on his original question?

[timbs4339]

The high-horseism here is unbelievable. I'd give the money to charity too, guys, but it's his money. He gets to do what he wants with it. He clearly understands that his employment prospects with a degree from either school will not be great, and he clearly doesn't really care. So why don't people stop trying to convince him to radically change who he is on the spot, and leave the thread for people who can give their opinions on his original question?

I think we've adequately covered his options already. We're just meandering now. This is the internet. If you don't like it go outside.

[marksteere]

lining the pockets of the hucksters at [GGU]

They aren't hucksters and it's not a scam. Opportunity is not equivalent to scam. They're not promising you'll pass the bar and get a job. They aren't making a secret of their low bar passage and job placement rates. I knew about their stats from the get go. It's only a scam if they're misrepresenting themselves and you're fooled, which they're not and I'm not.

[WheatThins]

Mod edit: DELETED

[lieph82]

The high-horseism here is unbelievable. I'd give the money to charity too, guys, but it's his money. He gets to do what he wants with it. He clearly understands that his employment prospects with a degree from either school will not be great, and he clearly doesn't really care. So why don't people stop trying to convince him to radically change who he is on the spot, and leave the thread for people who can give their opinions on his original question?

I think we've adequately covered his options already. We're just meandering now. This is the internet. If you don't like it go outside.

The meandering is mean-spirited. And I disagree that the options have been adequately covered. The only actually productive posts here are the ones that speak to the relative benefits and disadvantages of GGU and USF. To some people, there might actually be a difference between negative kajillion and negative bazillion.

Law school is not a high-risk investment for me, either, and I think a lot of people are having trouble understanding the mindset of someone who is very different from themselves.

[UnicornHunter]

lining the pockets of the hucksters at [GGU]

They aren't hucksters and it's not a scam. Opportunity is not equivalent to scam. They're not promising you'll pass the bar and get a job. They aren't making a secret of their low bar passage and job placement rates. I knew about their stats from the get go. It's only a scam if they're misrepresenting themselves and you're fooled, which they're not and I'm not.

As long as you know what you're getting into, YOLO. Nobody here is going to be able to give you good advice because, frankly, not too many people here have the resources you do. TLS is geared to help people who are going to law school as a high-risk investment in their future. It sounds like this is a pretty low risk move for you, so go wherever you like best and kill it.