No intentions on BigLaw Forum

[Fiero85]

By definition, "high six figures", would have to be over 500k, I would think.

But yes, over 100k in Texas is a lot of money. No income tax and cheap homes for the win lol

OP you should be more concerned with the LSAT because this whole plan aint worth it without a high LSAT score.

There's no way to know 15 yrs from now how well your career will be going, but yes, most people get at least modest raises over time.

[kalvano]

Texas (at least Dallas) is also less bimodal than other areas of the country because lol it's Texas.

[cwill011]

By definition, "high six figures", would have to be over 500k, I would think.

But yes, over 100k in Texas is a lot of money. No income tax and cheap homes for the win lol

OP you should be more concerned with the LSAT because this whole plan aint worth it without a high LSAT score.

There's no way to know 15 yrs from now how well your career will be going, but yes, most people get at least modest raises over time.

Makes sense. I think the lsat will go well. Ive studied almost 4 months already and Im taking the DEC test so I have time to improve a bit more in the coming months.

I can see how you guys think of huge salaries here.. half a mil is a pipe dream to most of us though.

[cwill011]

Did you already graduate from college?

Yeah.. spring 2014.

[cwill011]

Where do you want to live and work? Texas? If so, then going to a school away from Texas would be a mistake. If you can swing a good LSAT (170+), SMU favors the LSAT and being URM, you'd like get a fairly substantial offer from them (although not full tuition). That would give you the best shot at mid-level firms in Dallas. The same is true for UofH and Houston market, although I think UofH is a bit stingier (though much cheaper than SMU).

Going to a place like Penn State or similar for free with the intention of coming back to work in Texas would be a mistake. Going to a strong regional with the intention of staying in that region would be a much better bet (especially if you're going for free or close to it).

Well, I think this part of my op has people confused... Maybe I even confused myself. What I wanted was opinions on schools outside of Texas and also outside of the T-14 that would be good regionally in terms of job prospects. If I went to penn state, odds are I would live in penn state. I wouldn't try and come back home. Thats why I am asking if something like penn state is feasible if I have no kind of ties or roots set there.

[Fiero85]

By definition, "high six figures", would have to be over 500k, I would think.

But yes, over 100k in Texas is a lot of money. No income tax and cheap homes for the win lol

OP you should be more concerned with the LSAT because this whole plan aint worth it without a high LSAT score.

There's no way to know 15 yrs from now how well your career will be going, but yes, most people get at least modest raises over time.

Makes sense. I think the lsat will go well. Ive studied almost 4 months already and Im taking the DEC test so I have time to improve a bit more in the coming months.

I can see how you guys think of huge salaries here.. half a mil is a pipe dream to most of us though.

Oh I by no means meant to say 500k is a realistic salary for most people, I was jsut pointing out that if you use the term "high six figures", people will think you mean over 500k. Six figures is the range from 100k to 999k, so you'll have to be at least half way up that scale to call it "high". I guess that would make 550k the tipping point though, lol maths.

And checki out the LSAT resources and guides on this site. you gotta study smart too to make this happen. Do at least 25 PT's between now and the end of November since you have awhile to get familiar with the test. Do things at an even pace and don't burn yourself out leading up to the exam.

[Fiero85]

And Penn State is a garbage law school, don;t even consider it.

Especially since you're a texan and your wife has incentives to stay in TX too.

Again, target these:

UT / UofH / SMU

[BVest]

Where do you want to live and work? Texas? If so, then going to a school away from Texas would be a mistake. If you can swing a good LSAT (170+), SMU favors the LSAT and being URM, you'd like get a fairly substantial offer from them (although not full tuition). That would give you the best shot at mid-level firms in Dallas. The same is true for UofH and Houston market, although I think UofH is a bit stingier (though much cheaper than SMU).

Going to a place like Penn State or similar for free with the intention of coming back to work in Texas would be a mistake. Going to a strong regional with the intention of staying in that region would be a much better bet (especially if you're going for free or close to it).

Anecdotally speaking (myself and others) you can expect UH to make an offer which -- though significantly less than SMU -- will put the COA for both schools almost completely equal. e.g. SMU is ~$19k more than UH (tuition and fees; books and COL depend on your profs, your ability to seek out a better deal, and your living decisions, but are about equal) so one might get 24k from SMU and 5k from UH.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

If you go to a half decent school, odds are you will not make 40k out of the gate unless you want to, i.e., you choose a very low paying job due to a very specific interest. Small firms in the Dallas area pay at least 50k, and yeah salaries go up. Why do you think the average wage for an attorney is always listed as 6 figures by the BLS ? Those surveys are across all areas of low and include new attorneys and old. The median gov attorney was still six figures. PDs can certainly receive promotions and scratch 6 figures, DAs often hit 6 figures after 8 or 9 years.

Salaries go up. Please don't put your family in debt in order to get big law, so then you can have a fighting chance to pay off all that big law debt.

[cwill011]

If you go to a half decent school, odds are you will not make 40k out of the gate unless you want to, i.e., you choose a very low paying job due to a very specific interest. Small firms in the Dallas area pay at least 50k, and yeah salaries go up. Why do you think the average wage for an attorney is always listed as 6 figures by the BLS ? Those surveys are across all areas of low and include new attorneys and old. The median gov attorney was still six figures. PDs can certainly receive promotions and scratch 6 figures, DAs often hit 6 figures after 8 or 9 years.

Salaries go up. Please don't put your family in debt in order to get big law, so then you can have a fighting chance to pay off all that big law debt.

Are you in the dallas area? if so, how is TAMU-Law regarded up there?

[Fiero85]

Are you in the dallas area? if so, how is TAMU-Law regarded up there?

No, just no:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/texasam/2013/

Only 38% of students are employed in a legal job of any salary. Not good at all.

[BVest]

Are you in the dallas area? if so, how is TAMU-Law regarded up there?

Same way it was when it was Tx Wesleyan, only now you can make aggie jokes about it.

[twenty]

Honestly, excluding TAMU and TSU, I'd probably do any other ranked Texas law school for free/COL. St. Mary's and South Texas are going into a dangerous place with massive class sizes they refuse to cut to reasonable levels, but even those I'd probably consider if you could live with your parents/wife already had a great job there. A 165 is above every Texas school's 75th except for UT. I'd be surprised if you didn't get serious money from at least one of the stronger regionals there.

Don't go out of the area when you have so many decent options locally.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

If you go to a half decent school, odds are you will not make 40k out of the gate unless you want to, i.e., you choose a very low paying job due to a very specific interest. Small firms in the Dallas area pay at least 50k, and yeah salaries go up. Why do you think the average wage for an attorney is always listed as 6 figures by the BLS ? Those surveys are across all areas of low and include new attorneys and old. The median gov attorney was still six figures. PDs can certainly receive promotions and scratch 6 figures, DAs often hit 6 figures after 8 or 9 years.

Salaries go up. Please don't put your family in debt in order to get big law, so then you can have a fighting chance to pay off all that big law debt.

Are you in the dallas area? if so, how is TAMU-Law regarded up there?

I have lived there and know several attorneys there, but no I don't currently live there. A&M has a very poor reputation. People will make jokes behind your back for the first few years of your career.

[alphasteve]

Where do you want to live and work? Texas? If so, then going to a school away from Texas would be a mistake. If you can swing a good LSAT (170+), SMU favors the LSAT and being URM, you'd like get a fairly substantial offer from them (although not full tuition). That would give you the best shot at mid-level firms in Dallas. The same is true for UofH and Houston market, although I think UofH is a bit stingier (though much cheaper than SMU).

Going to a place like Penn State or similar for free with the intention of coming back to work in Texas would be a mistake. Going to a strong regional with the intention of staying in that region would be a much better bet (especially if you're going for free or close to it).

Anecdotally speaking (myself and others) you can expect UH to make an offer which -- though significantly less than SMU -- will put the COA for both schools almost completely equal. e.g. SMU is ~$19k more than UH (tuition and fees; books and COL depend on your profs, your ability to seek out a better deal, and your living decisions, but are about equal) so one might get 24k from SMU and 5k from UH.

Also note, UH is going to be primarily for Houston and SMU for Dallas. There is not a ton of mobility between the two cities if you go to the other city's school (speaking only in terms of first job post-grad).

[jbagelboy]

If you're african american and you pull a 170 on your LsAT you'll get into some T14s and definitely UT even with shit college grades - assuming the S. Ct. doesn't fuck any more with public affirmative action programs before you apply.

I think it's fine to want to work at a smaller firm, but you'll have to rely on a strong local network since you won't have standard hiring cycles to rely on.

[kalvano]

If you go to a half decent school, odds are you will not make 40k out of the gate unless you want to, i.e., you choose a very low paying job due to a very specific interest. Small firms in the Dallas area pay at least 50k, and yeah salaries go up. Why do you think the average wage for an attorney is always listed as 6 figures by the BLS ? Those surveys are across all areas of low and include new attorneys and old. The median gov attorney was still six figures. PDs can certainly receive promotions and scratch 6 figures, DAs often hit 6 figures after 8 or 9 years.

Salaries go up. Please don't put your family in debt in order to get big law, so then you can have a fighting chance to pay off all that big law debt.

Are you in the dallas area? if so, how is TAMU-Law regarded up there?

In no way, shape, or form should Wesleyan or whatever it is now be a consideration for you. Ever. Not even for free.

[timbs4339]

60-75K is pushing it. You can work your way up to that and more over time, but your starting salary is going to be more like 40-50K. For example, ADAs in Manhattan start out at like 52K, and that's with a much higher COL. Small private firms are not going to pay much more.

And yes, plenty of people come out of the DA's office and make 190K in private practice, or have the business acumen to do PI law and make a killing, but for every one of these people there are a ton who flame out and become insurance adjusters. You never meet those people (and if you do they don't broadcast it), that's why it seems like the successful ones are the only ones.

[kalvano]

60-75K is pushing it. You can work your way up to that and more over time, but your starting salary is going to be more like 40-50K. For example, ADAs in Manhattan start out at like 52K, and that's with a much higher COL. Small private firms are not going to pay much more.

ADA's in Dallas start around $48K to $50K. Many small firms start at $50K and go up to about $65K.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Cannot believe manhattan DA starts at 52k. That's like 4 dollars after COL + taxes. That's less than many new DAs get in rural Colorado.

Kalvano seriously curious what do DAs make in rural Texas?

[timbs4339]

60-75K is pushing it. You can work your way up to that and more over time, but your starting salary is going to be more like 40-50K. For example, ADAs in Manhattan start out at like 52K, and that's with a much higher COL. Small private firms are not going to pay much more.

ADA's in Dallas start around $48K to $50K. Many small firms start at $50K and go up to about $65K.

Texas is so awesome. You'd think they could get away with paying 125K or something for biglaw associates, but plenty of firms pay 160K. That's like 320K purchasing power in Manhattan or 260K in Boston/DC. I am so jealous of my friends who got jobs in Texas and their not studio apartments.

[ymmv]

60-75K is pushing it. You can work your way up to that and more over time, but your starting salary is going to be more like 40-50K. For example, ADAs in Manhattan start out at like 52K, and that's with a much higher COL. Small private firms are not going to pay much more.

ADA's in Dallas start around $48K to $50K. Many small firms start at $50K and go up to about $65K.

Texas is so awesome. You'd think they could get away with paying 125K or something for biglaw associates, but plenty of firms pay 160K. That's like 320K purchasing power in Manhattan or 260K in Boston/DC. I am so jealous of my friends who got jobs in Texas and their not studio apartments.

Yes but they live in Texas.

[Tanicius]

Apply broadly and see where you get money. I think your career goals are pretty compatible with Texas. No need to leave unless your family wants to. The hardest part will be getting your first job and you should be prepared to make 40-50k if necessary. Within 5-10 years though it is a pretty safe assumption you will earn between 100-200k a year whether by going solo or partner at local firm. Some of the above posts are way overestimating the difficulty of going solo. Most solos have great work life balance and make solid money. The end game is easy though. The concern is the first few steps.

Going solo is easy? Tell that to the countless failed solos that shutter every year. Any start up business takes a ton of work, long hours and grueling networking unless you already have strong connections to the legal community, like you get having worked in a firm and generated business contacts for the last ten years.

Solo isn't impossible, it's just damn hard.

Just as, if not more, important for lots of types of solo practices: having capital to start with. If you have law school loans, it's hard to get an effectively large loan to start a decent practice. Coming from Biglaw, you have better chances of amassing a pool of money to start up your practice. For criminal defense, you're going to need that money to subsist, because you don't get clients through connections, but rather than time and reputation as a successful defense attorney. It's unlikely you'll be making substantial profits even five years out.

Furthermore, it's also dangerous even if you do get the loan, because if you fail then you will owe that private loan on top of your law school debt, without having an income. Very scary prospect that lots of recent grads have to grapple with these days.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Apply broadly and see where you get money. I think your career goals are pretty compatible with Texas. No need to leave unless your family wants to. The hardest part will be getting your first job and you should be prepared to make 40-50k if necessary. Within 5-10 years though it is a pretty safe assumption you will earn between 100-200k a year whether by going solo or partner at local firm. Some of the above posts are way overestimating the difficulty of going solo. Most solos have great work life balance and make solid money. The end game is easy though. The concern is the first few steps.

Going solo is easy? Tell that to the countless failed solos that shutter every year. Any start up business takes a ton of work, long hours and grueling networking unless you already have strong connections to the legal community, like you get having worked in a firm and generated business contacts for the last ten years.

Solo isn't impossible, it's just damn hard.

Just as, if not more, important for lots of types of solo practices: having capital to start with. If you have law school loans, it's hard to get an effectively large loan to start a decent practice. Coming from Biglaw, you have better chances of amassing a pool of money to start up your practice. For criminal defense, you're going to need that money to subsist, because you don't get clients through connections, but rather than time and reputation as a successful defense attorney. It's unlikely you'll be making substantial profits even five years out.

Furthermore, it's also dangerous even if you do get the loan, because if you fail then you will owe that private loan on top of your law school debt, without having an income. Very scary prospect that lots of recent grads have to grapple with these days.

I agree, but a lot of solos around here are Starbucks lawyers who have a fancy website but no office. They just tell clients, those who ask, some don't, that the reason they don't have an office is so they can offer affordable services, and that they don't like to be tied down.

They also forgo mal practice insurance because not only are they judgment proof, but the clientele is often lower middle class and wouldn't have the money or wherewithal to take action against them.

Still you have to have start up costs to look professional, be able to create lots of paperwork, afford subscriptions to rocketlawyer or another form provided, plus money to get you through very slow times. With zero startup cash, you basically have to get a non legal job so you can eat and pay rent, hoping to start practicing on the side.

[theotherone823]

Cannot believe manhattan DA starts at 52k. That's like 4 dollars after COL + taxes. That's less than many new DAs get in rural Colorado.

Kalvano seriously curious what do DAs make in rural Texas?

Manhattan DA starts at $60K

http://manhattanda.org/salary-and-benefits