T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G Forum

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rayiner

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T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by rayiner » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:02 pm

The following is a min/max/mean plot of "firms > 100 attorneys + federal clerkships" for the T14 schools over the last four years (C/O 2010-2013), using the ABA data.

Image

What's interesting about this chart is we can look at not just the average placement, but factor in how much schools suffered during the recession by looking at minimum placement over that time. The theory is that when firms had to cut hiring, they retrenched to their core recruiting schools.

The data shows quite convincingly that Penn should be grouped together with HYSC because of it's high average and tight spread between min/max. Chicago/NYU also have a strong average, but got pounded during the recession. The T8-12 are grouped pretty tightly, though MV had higher spreads than Duke/Northwestern. Cornell has a stronger average than the T8-12, but got absolutely destroyed during the recession. Georgetown never really placed at the same level as the other T14.


Code: Select all

	
  2010	2011	2012	2013	Mean	StDev	Min	Max	Ratio
Yale 59.4	66.3	66.7	65.5	64.5	3.4	59.4	66.7	0.11
Harvard 72.8 65.0	71.4	71.4	70.2	3.5	65.0	72.8	0.11
Stanford 81.6 72.9	75.1	77.8	76.9	3.8	72.9	81.6	0.11
Columbia 79.0	69.5	72.0	78.0	74.6	4.6	69.5	79.0	0.12
Chicago 72.3 54.2	70.7	72.6	67.5	8.9	54.2	72.6	0.25
NYU 66.8	54.0	65.1	67.0	63.2	6.2	54.0	67.0	0.19
Penn 69.2	67.1	77.0	69.1	70.6	4.4	67.1	77.0	0.13
Berkeley 58.5 51.3	60.6	55.8	56.5	4.0	51.3	60.6	0.15
Michigan 55.6 44.6	51.8	57.1	52.3	5.6	44.6	57.1	0.22
Virginia 61.2 47.7	62.1	62.9	58.5	7.2	47.7	62.9	0.24
Duke	 57.7 56.0	64.0	60.1	59.5	3.5	56.0	64.0	0.13
Northwestern 60.4	61.3	55.6	63.4	60.2	3.3	55.6	63.4	0.12
Cornell 80.7 46.8	64.2	68.4	65.0	14.0	46.8	80.7	0.42
Georgetown 46.4 37.4	42.8	46.5	43.3	4.3	37.4	46.5	0.20

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYPSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by ymmv » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:24 pm

I'm sad we're losing Dean Fitts. That bro had been hyperfocused on improving practical outcomes for years and has really sold the school's culture to firms. I know a lot of the pitch is standard salesman BS but I believe him when he talks about the increasingly huge number of partners who tell him how much they'd rather hire Penn grads b/c teamwork sanity competence personability etc.

I'm inclined to think the increased emphasis on work experience in admissions has a lot to do with it - class of 2016 is <40% KJDs. But I'm sure there's a lot more going on than that.

Anyway that's enough masturbation from me. I might change my tune after OCI, who knows.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYPSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by rayiner » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:30 pm

ymmv wrote:I'm sad we're losing Dean Fitts. That bro had been hyperfocused on improving practical outcomes for years and has really sold the school's culture to firms. I know a lot of the pitch is standard salesman BS but I believe him when he talks about the increasingly huge number of partners who tell him how much they'd rather hire Penn grads b/c teamwork sanity competence personability etc.

I'm inclined to think the increased emphasis on work experience in admissions has a lot to do with it - class of 2016 is <40% KJDs. But I'm sure there's a lot more going on than that.

Anyway that's enough masturbation from me. I might change my tune after OCI, who knows.
Penn has a great brand, but it also has the advantage of being in Philly. PA/NJ/DE are together a decently-sized market that isn't over saturated with T14 grads. There's a lot of federal clerkships right in Penn's back yard, and a decent amount of big/mid-law that people lower in the class at Penn will be competing for primarily against Temple/Villanova/Rutgers.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by bombaysippin » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:39 pm

I wish I applied to Penn. :(

NOW ILL NEVER KNOW

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by jbagelboy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:42 pm

This is one way to think about it.

You could also look at these numbers and see that in three years out of four, Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, and Chicago placed over 70%. Penn only placed over 70% in one year out of four - 2012. Conversely, Harvard, Chicago and Columbia all had weak years in 2011 (Chicago was particularly terrible). Stanford took a hit, but it shows the most resilience in recession. Removing outliers Penn generally falls right under the cut that HSCC preserves. If we are talking about security, this is another factor to consider.

I think both are valid readings; we'll have to see in coming years whether Penn strike back into and maintain 70%+, or whether that one 77% was the distortion.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by lawschool22 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:20 pm

jbagelboy wrote:This is one way to think about it.

You could also look at these numbers and see that in three years out of four, Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, and Chicago placed over 70%. Penn only placed over 70% in one year out of four - 2012. Conversely, Harvard, Chicago and Columbia all had weak years in 2011 (Chicago was particularly terrible). Stanford took a hit, but it shows the most resilience in recession. Removing outliers Penn generally falls right under the cut that HSCC preserves. If we are talking about security, this is another factor to consider.

I think both are valid readings; we'll have to see in coming years whether Penn strike back into and maintain 70%+, or whether that one 77% was the distortion.
Why did you choose 70% as your cutoff? 69.1% and 69.2% seem pretty close.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by rayiner » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:29 pm

jbagelboy wrote:This is one way to think about it.

You could also look at these numbers and see that in three years out of four, Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, and Chicago placed over 70%. Penn only placed over 70% in one year out of four - 2012. Conversely, Harvard, Chicago and Columbia all had weak years in 2011 (Chicago was particularly terrible). Stanford took a hit, but it shows the most resilience in recession. Removing outliers Penn generally falls right under the cut that HSCC preserves. If we are talking about security, this is another factor to consider.

I think both are valid readings; we'll have to see in coming years whether Penn strike back into and maintain 70%+, or whether that one 77% was the distortion.
At least part of the motivation for this exercise is looking at the outlier (I.e. the recession). Who held up in the depths of the recession, and who was just posing?

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by redsoxfan1989 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:46 pm

Why the blatant anti-Cornell trolling? They had a crappy 2011 but bounced back to beat every other school in BMVDNC grouping. Throw out 2011 and you really can't distinguish them from NYU.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by FOM » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:21 pm

redsoxfan1989 wrote:Why the blatant anti-Cornell trolling? They had a crappy 2011 but bounced back to beat every other school in BMVDNC grouping. Throw out 2011 and you really can't distinguish them from NYU.
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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by Chrstgtr » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:52 pm

FOM wrote:
redsoxfan1989 wrote:Why the blatant anti-Cornell trolling? They had a crappy 2011 but bounced back to beat every other school in BMVDNC grouping. Throw out 2011 and you really can't distinguish them from NYU.
That's actually a good point. If you go solely by the numbers, Cornell has been on par with NYU (except 2011, and they killed it in 2010). There is always the issue of self-selection though. NYU is much more focused on PI than Cornell, sending about 19% of grads to Gov/PI, while Cornell is only about 10%.
The same thing can be said about NYU vs Columbia with many more interested in PI from NYU than from Columbia or with NU vs BMVDC since NU has a relatively large JD-MBA class that composes about 10% of the class and self-select into business.

At the same time Yale isn't quite on the level of the others in their grouping (due presumably to self-selection again) but no one is asking to reshuffle the groupings to knock Yale down.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by redsoxfan1989 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:05 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:
FOM wrote:
redsoxfan1989 wrote:Why the blatant anti-Cornell trolling? They had a crappy 2011 but bounced back to beat every other school in BMVDNC grouping. Throw out 2011 and you really can't distinguish them from NYU.
That's actually a good point. If you go solely by the numbers, Cornell has been on par with NYU (except 2011, and they killed it in 2010). There is always the issue of self-selection though. NYU is much more focused on PI than Cornell, sending about 19% of grads to Gov/PI, while Cornell is only about 10%.
The same thing can be said about NYU vs Columbia with many more interested in PI from NYU than from Columbia or with NU vs BMVDC since NU has a relatively large JD-MBA class that composes about 10% of the class and self-select into business.

At the same time Yale isn't quite on the level of the others in their grouping (due presumably to self-selection again) but no one is asking to reshuffle the groupings to knock Yale down.
I'm amenable to the argument that NU's strength is underrated because they publish the salaries of their graduates who take JD preferred jobs in business and their salaries are commensurate, or better than, many big law salaries.

However, because we can't know the nature of the GOV/PI goals of entering students or the precise outcomes of the graduates, it is purely speculative to say that self-selection to PI justifies ranking NYU significantly above Cornell (or NU for that matter).

My real point is that putting Cornell as #13 doesn't make sense where this data shows it is at least #7, if not in a close tie for 6 with NYU. Or that attempts to rank are hopeless. Take your pick.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by FOM » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:06 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:
FOM wrote:
redsoxfan1989 wrote:Why the blatant anti-Cornell trolling? They had a crappy 2011 but bounced back to beat every other school in BMVDNC grouping. Throw out 2011 and you really can't distinguish them from NYU.
That's actually a good point. If you go solely by the numbers, Cornell has been on par with NYU (except 2011, and they killed it in 2010). There is always the issue of self-selection though. NYU is much more focused on PI than Cornell, sending about 19% of grads to Gov/PI, while Cornell is only about 10%.
The same thing can be said about NYU vs Columbia with many more interested in PI from NYU than from Columbia or with NU vs BMVDC since NU has a relatively large JD-MBA class that composes about 10% of the class and self-select into business.

At the same time Yale isn't quite on the level of the others in their grouping (due presumably to self-selection again) but no one is asking to reshuffle the groupings to knock Yale down.
I wasn't the one asking for reshuffling of the rankings. I was just pointing out that it's another factor to take into consideration. It's impossible to even predict if the people who end up doing PI/Gov went to OCI or would change the percentages if they had.

edit: Even disregarding my point about self-selection, Cornell is still about on par with NYU by these numbers.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by Chrstgtr » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:00 pm

redsoxfan1989 wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:
FOM wrote:
redsoxfan1989 wrote:Why the blatant anti-Cornell trolling? They had a crappy 2011 but bounced back to beat every other school in BMVDNC grouping. Throw out 2011 and you really can't distinguish them from NYU.
That's actually a good point. If you go solely by the numbers, Cornell has been on par with NYU (except 2011, and they killed it in 2010). There is always the issue of self-selection though. NYU is much more focused on PI than Cornell, sending about 19% of grads to Gov/PI, while Cornell is only about 10%.
The same thing can be said about NYU vs Columbia with many more interested in PI from NYU than from Columbia or with NU vs BMVDC since NU has a relatively large JD-MBA class that composes about 10% of the class and self-select into business.

At the same time Yale isn't quite on the level of the others in their grouping (due presumably to self-selection again) but no one is asking to reshuffle the groupings to knock Yale down.
I'm amenable to the argument that NU's strength is underrated because they publish the salaries of their graduates who take JD preferred jobs in business and their salaries are commensurate, or better than, many big law salaries.

However, because we can't know the nature of the GOV/PI goals of entering students or the precise outcomes of the graduates, it is purely speculative to say that self-selection to PI justifies ranking NYU significantly above Cornell (or NU for that matter).

My real point is that putting Cornell as #13 doesn't make sense where this data shows it is at least #7, if not in a close tie for 6 with NYU. Or that attempts to rank are hopeless. Take your pick.
I agree with you, to a degree. The percentage of students wishing to practice in a particular area (PI, Firm, Govn't, etc.) upon entering into law school is published by law schools. I have even seen a poster on TLS attempt to make a ranking of schools based on how many students met their pre-law school career expectations (If I remember correctly the results are somewhat similar to what you would predict with the exception of Stanford ranking far ahead of everyone else due to the posters methodology regarding clerkships.).

The expectations of 0Ls, however, hold limited value though because many people (and I suspect many K-JDs) change their goals once in law school or realize their massive debt loads and rush towards BigLaw to pay down their debt.

Suggesting that PI folks entirely self-select out of BigLaw seems misleading. Even though many PI jobs as difficult or more difficult as BigLaw jobs to attain, not all are (There is very little information I have ever seen regarding placement into prestigious PI vs generic run of the mill PI jobs. Most posters just seem to assume that HYS and N provide substantial benefits in attaining prestigious PI.). Furthermore if PI was truly just an issue of self-selection, major questions are raised as to why so many more law school students (across the T14) decided to go into PI with the onset of the recession compared to immediately before the recession.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by Chrstgtr » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:11 pm

FOM wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:
FOM wrote:
redsoxfan1989 wrote:Why the blatant anti-Cornell trolling? They had a crappy 2011 but bounced back to beat every other school in BMVDNC grouping. Throw out 2011 and you really can't distinguish them from NYU.
That's actually a good point. If you go solely by the numbers, Cornell has been on par with NYU (except 2011, and they killed it in 2010). There is always the issue of self-selection though. NYU is much more focused on PI than Cornell, sending about 19% of grads to Gov/PI, while Cornell is only about 10%.
The same thing can be said about NYU vs Columbia with many more interested in PI from NYU than from Columbia or with NU vs BMVDC since NU has a relatively large JD-MBA class that composes about 10% of the class and self-select into business.

At the same time Yale isn't quite on the level of the others in their grouping (due presumably to self-selection again) but no one is asking to reshuffle the groupings to knock Yale down.
I wasn't the one asking for reshuffling of the rankings. I was just pointing out that it's another factor to take into consideration. It's impossible to even predict if the people who end up doing PI/Gov went to OCI or would change the percentages if they had.

edit: Even disregarding my point about self-selection, Cornell is still about on par with NYU by these numbers.
I agree that, on average, Cornell seems to get shafted in many respects and that, on average, there is little difference between almost all of the lower to mid T14 since all of these schools can be within striking distance of each other depending on the year. The problem is that if placement for individual students is not an aggregate study. It's a one chance shot. I would not feel comfortable attending a school like Cornell hoping that its placement has a good year as opposed to a bad year. When choosing a law school 0Ls should approach with caution and seek to eliminate as much risk as possible and Cornell just does not do that (compared to NYU, with regard to the vast majority of other law schools Cornell is a very safe choice and can hold its own against the BMVDNC grouping).

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by redsoxfan1989 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:19 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:When choosing a law school 0Ls should approach with caution and seek to eliminate as much risk as possible and Cornell just does not do that (compared to NYU, with regard to the vast majority of other law schools Cornell is a very safe choice and can hold its own against the BMVDNC grouping).
So a 7% difference in biglaw+fedclerk in 2011 (this peak of the recession) makes NYU that less risky than Cornell? Even though Cornell sharply bounced back the next year to within 1% of NYU? Seems like a dubious proposition to me, especially because in 2010 Cornell outperformed NYU by 14% in biglaw+fedclerk (that is double the difference in 2011). I'm not saying that the boom years are coming back, but a relatively small difference during in one year does not make NYU's placement significantly better than Cornell's.

The graph is misleading because it give the impression that Cornell had many years in which it had placement below 60% whereas in reality its placement was 60%+ for three years and wonky in 1.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by FOM » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:29 pm

redsoxfan1989 wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:When choosing a law school 0Ls should approach with caution and seek to eliminate as much risk as possible and Cornell just does not do that (compared to NYU, with regard to the vast majority of other law schools Cornell is a very safe choice and can hold its own against the BMVDNC grouping).
So a 7% difference in biglaw+fedclerk in 2011 (this peak of the recession) makes NYU that less risky than Cornell? Even though Cornell sharply bounced back the next year to within 1% of NYU? Seems like a dubious proposition to me, especially because in 2010 Cornell outperformed NYU by 14% in biglaw+fedclerk (that is double the difference in 2011). I'm not saying that the boom years are coming back, but a relatively small difference during in one year does not make NYU's placement significantly better than Cornell's.

The graph is misleading because it give the impression that Cornell had many years in which it had placement below 60% whereas in reality its placement was 60%+ for three years and wonky in 1.
Yeah, its just hard to analyze data accurately with only 4 data points, but taking data from years further back is hardly relevant to post-recession hiring. I tend to agree that based solely on this data, there is a negligible difference between NYU and Cornell, especially considering their almost identical job placement by location. The one caveat being that I would not want to be at Cornell during a recession (again, based on a singular data point).

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by rayiner » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:32 pm

redsoxfan1989 wrote:[My real point is that putting Cornell as #13 doesn't make sense where this data shows it is at least #7, if not in a close tie for 6 with NYU. Or that attempts to rank are hopeless. Take your pick.
I didn't put Cornell as #13. I grouped the schools into four bands. There's no meaning to the order within each band.

I have Cornell in a band under NYU because it has a similar average and a much larger spread. The operating theory is that firms' choices of where to cut back during the recession are reflective of some deeper loyalties about which schools they consider core to their recruiting. I think Cornell gets good overall placement because of a strong NYC market and small class size, but when shit hits the fan, firms prefer to hire at Columbia first, followed by NYU.

I also think this is a good way to account for self-selection at places like Yale. Yeah, it always places 60-65%, but in the depth of the recession in 2011, it actually placed more than the previous year. That suggests that Yale students wouldn't have trouble getting big law if more wanted it.
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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by redsoxfan1989 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:36 pm

rayiner wrote: I didn't put Cornell as #13. I grouped the schools into four bands. There's no meaning to the order within each band.
Thanks for clarifying. Rest of your post makes sense to me.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by Jency » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:46 pm

Very interesting stats. IMO the groups should be broken out as: YHS/Col, PCN. It’s possible that YHSCP is legit but to me Col edges Penn to the point where the next breakout might be P then CN.

The top 7 is easy to figure. The stats show Cornell clearly leads the next 7. Except for one year, Cornell is plainly ahead. The rest are pretty even with Mich and GT at the bottom. What happened to Mich?

Your assessment of the Philly/DE/NJ market is spot on, although you might consider adding Drexel to the mix, they have gained traction.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by jbagelboy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:35 pm

rayiner wrote:
redsoxfan1989 wrote:[My real point is that putting Cornell as #13 doesn't make sense where this data shows it is at least #7, if not in a close tie for 6 with NYU. Or that attempts to rank are hopeless. Take your pick.
I didn't put Cornell as #13. I grouped the schools into four bands. There's no meaning to the order within each band.

I have Cornell in a band under NYU because it has a similar average and a much larger spread. The operating theory is that firms' choices of where to cut back during the recession are reflective of some deeper loyalties about which schools they consider core to their recruiting. I think Cornell gets good overall placement because of a strong NYC market and small class size, but when shit hits the fan, firms prefer to hire at Columbia first, followed by NYU.

I also think this is a good way to account for self-selection at places like Yale. Yeah, it always places 60-65%, but in the depth of the recession in 2011, it actually placed more than the previous year. That suggests that Yale students wouldn't have trouble getting big law if more wanted it.
More yale students will go to the safety net of ny firms when the gov honors positions get deferred and/or cancelled in slow years/recession

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by ymmv » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:48 pm

Jency wrote:Very interesting stats. IMO the groups should be broken out as: YHS/Col, PCN. It’s possible that YHSCP is legit but to me Col edges Penn to the point where the next breakout might be P then CN.

The top 7 is easy to figure. The stats show Cornell clearly leads the next 7. Except for one year, Cornell is plainly ahead. The rest are pretty even with Mich and GT at the bottom. What happened to Mich?

Your assessment of the Philly/DE/NJ market is spot on, although you might consider adding Drexel to the mix, they have gained traction.
Lol.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by FinalFour » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:13 am

jbagelboy wrote:This is one way to think about it.

You could also look at these numbers and see that in three years out of four, Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, and Chicago placed over 70%. Penn only placed over 70% in one year out of four - 2012. Conversely, Harvard, Chicago and Columbia all had weak years in 2011 (Chicago was particularly terrible). Stanford took a hit, but it shows the most resilience in recession. Removing outliers Penn generally falls right under the cut that HSCC preserves. If we are talking about security, this is another factor to consider.

I think both are valid readings; we'll have to see in coming years whether Penn strike back into and maintain 70%+, or whether that one 77% was the distortion.
+1

Penn is clearly a great school and an outstanding outcome, but wouldn't Penn benefit the most compared to any of HSCC(N) when looking at only 100+ firms and federal clerkships (I understand this is probably the best metric we have for measuring desirable outcomes, but I also think it is foolish to always take it at face value). What I mean by that is the advantage a school such as Columbia or Chicago has when compared to Penn is found in elite outcomes. HSCC clearly have better placement when it comes to Supreme Court Clerkships, the most elite firms (Wachtell, etc.) I understand not a ton of people get those outcomes, however, I do not think it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion either. It is certainly more relevant for the students who are choosing which school to decide now and the students who will be deciding in the future (so a member of the class of 2017 at the earliest, but likely 2018+) than one fluke year that occurred 6-7 years prior to the graduation date of those currently choosing a school and a year that was a part of the biggest economic downturn of our lifetimes. Penn is truly a great school and if the money worked out I would probably have gone there. I just find blatantly declaring Penn superior to Chicago (or NYU which gets killed due to the anti-PI bias) based off the posted stats a little absurd.

If there is something I do not understand about why the recession year should be a major factor in the decision making process for grads of the class of 2017 or 2018+, feel free to show me why I am an idiot. Until then, I see no reason 2011 would be more indicative of employment outcomes for the class of 2017/2018 than 2005 employment outcomes would have been for 2011, and I think we can all agree that many people who based their decisions off the market in 2005 ultimately regretted their decision when they graduated. Hence, I feel the more recent the data we have, the more accurate and valuable information we have.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by twenty 8 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:43 am

Maybe I am missing something but it seems that with good grades you will land where you want (or close to it) at any of the top 12 schools, per the above metric. I am dubious of Michigan and Gtown.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by rayiner » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:52 pm

FinalFour wrote:HSCC clearly have better placement when it comes to Supreme Court Clerkships, the most elite firms (Wachtell, etc.) I understand not a ton of people get those outcomes, however, I do not think it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion either. It is certainly more relevant for the students who are choosing which school to decide now and the students who will be deciding in the future (so a member of the class of 2017 at the earliest, but likely 2018+) than one fluke year that occurred 6-7 years prior to the graduation date of those currently choosing a school and a year that was a part of the biggest economic downturn of our lifetimes.
When you consider SCOTUS placement or elite firm placement, what you're really trying to do is get an impression of the "intangible" aspect of a school's placement. What I'm trying to say is that looking at what happened in C/O 2011 is another way of getting an impression of that "intangible" aspect, one that's more relevant to the majority of students than what SCOTUS thinks of particular schools. It shows what firms do when they're forced to cut their summer classes.

Outside of Yale, where a staggering 5% of each class gets SCOTUS clerkships, so few people get them that the differences don't really mean anything. Over the last five years, Chicago has usually placed two in each class, sometimes one. Penn has usually placed one, sometimes zero. Northwestern has usually placed one, sometimes two. What does it mean? I don't think it means anything more than the fact that the 7th Circuit has more feeders than the 3rd, and that Chicago particularly benefits from its close relationship with Posner and certain conservative judges.

If you look at clerkships more generally, no school outside of HYS really stands out from the pack. Over the last 5 years, Chicago has placed about 12% of each class into a COA clerkship. At Penn it's more like 9%.

I really don't think these metrics are as significant to your typical student as what happened when law firms were forced to pick and choose where they'd cut back on recruiting. For a median student, the "halo" effect that a school may have with SCOTUS and federal judges isn't as important, IMHO, as having local firms that go out of their way to pick up grads from a particular school.

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Re: T14 Placement 2010-2013: HYSCP > CN > BMVDNC > G

Post by Pragmatic Gun » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:28 am

Bump. This thread is pretty informative.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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