Wisconsin vs. UIUC Forum
- worldtraveler
- Posts: 8676
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:47 am
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
If you retake you could end up going for 50k to 100k in less money than you would pay now.
Who gives a shit if you will only make 40k next year? You probably won't make much more than that straight out of one of these schools anyway. Plus think of any scholarship you get as a payment, plus the 9% interest you don't pay.
You already got granted a deferral. Frankly at this point if you don't take that deferral and retake, you're an idiot.
Who gives a shit if you will only make 40k next year? You probably won't make much more than that straight out of one of these schools anyway. Plus think of any scholarship you get as a payment, plus the 9% interest you don't pay.
You already got granted a deferral. Frankly at this point if you don't take that deferral and retake, you're an idiot.
- bugsy33
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:04 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Dang, you know when having a 60% ride to a T-1 school is a "bad circumstance" that legal education is F***ed.isuperserial wrote:I was looking forward to seeing you at UIUC this year, but looking at your situation thoroughly, I can't advise you attending under current circumstances. I think retake and reapply is your best option.
- WokeUpInACar
- Posts: 5542
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:11 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
You won't tell everyone the answer, but I know why you won't retake.
You put what you think is a lot of time into studying for the test, and you did what you now think is the best you can do. Getting those prep books out again would be fucking awful. You told yourself you were done with this stupid test. Getting some entry level job isn't part of THE PLAN that you've had for yourself for years, and it seems like treading water when all you want to do is progress and get where you want to be. You've told all your friends and family that you're going to law school in the fall and really don't want to deal with not doing so. You've rationalized that improving your LSAT will only be a marginal benefit; that you can't really do better enough to change anything. You "aren't a good test taker," and standardized tests have never been your strong suit. You don't want to let one silly test dictate huge life decisions like this.
Welp all of that is bullshit. It's understandable, it's human nature, but it's bullshit. You know the actual correct decision, but you're in denial due to a series of rationalizations. Do the right thing.
You put what you think is a lot of time into studying for the test, and you did what you now think is the best you can do. Getting those prep books out again would be fucking awful. You told yourself you were done with this stupid test. Getting some entry level job isn't part of THE PLAN that you've had for yourself for years, and it seems like treading water when all you want to do is progress and get where you want to be. You've told all your friends and family that you're going to law school in the fall and really don't want to deal with not doing so. You've rationalized that improving your LSAT will only be a marginal benefit; that you can't really do better enough to change anything. You "aren't a good test taker," and standardized tests have never been your strong suit. You don't want to let one silly test dictate huge life decisions like this.
Welp all of that is bullshit. It's understandable, it's human nature, but it's bullshit. You know the actual correct decision, but you're in denial due to a series of rationalizations. Do the right thing.
- isuperserial
- Posts: 518
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:49 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Yeah man, sorry to say it but that's the way it is nowadays. I know you're eager to start, but I know if you work hard and retake, you'll do well.bugsy33 wrote:Dang, you know when having a 60% ride to a T-1 school is a "bad circumstance" that legal education is F***ed.isuperserial wrote:I was looking forward to seeing you at UIUC this year, but looking at your situation thoroughly, I can't advise you attending under current circumstances. I think retake and reapply is your best option.
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
I took that dreaded year off after being accepted to T1 schools, got a entry clerk job, improved my LSAT by 10 points, and am now going to a t20 with a few thousand short of a full ride. I know how hard it is to put your mind back in LSAT prep mode, and having to feel like a failure. But once you make the choice to do it, you'll know right away that it was the right call. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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- WokeUpInACar
- Posts: 5542
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:11 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Ahh yes, I missed this classic rationalization.bugsy33 wrote:Dang, you know when having a 60% ride to a T-1 school is a "bad circumstance" that legal education is F***ed.isuperserial wrote:I was looking forward to seeing you at UIUC this year, but looking at your situation thoroughly, I can't advise you attending under current circumstances. I think retake and reapply is your best option.
"C'mon guys, it's not like I'm going to Cooley at sticker here! This is a much better outcome than most law students will get! I don't need to get biglaw and go to a t14 like all of you elitists suggest everyone must do"
Again, bullshit.
- bugsy33
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:04 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
This is pretty cute, but it has nothing to do with it.WokeUpInACar wrote:You won't tell everyone the answer, but I know why you won't retake.
You put what you think is a lot of time into studying for the test, and you did what you now think is the best you can do. Getting those prep books out again would be fucking awful. You told yourself you were done with this stupid test. Getting some entry level job isn't part of THE PLAN that you've had for yourself for years, and it seems like treading water when all you want to do is progress and get where you want to be. You've told all your friends and family that you're going to law school in the fall and really don't want to deal with not doing so. You've rationalized that improving your LSAT will only be a marginal benefit; that you can't really do better enough to change anything. You "aren't a good test taker," and standardized tests have never been your strong suit. You don't want to let one silly test dictate huge life decisions like this.
Welp all of that is bullshit. It's understandable, it's human nature, but it's bullshit. You know the actual correct decision, but you're in denial due to a series of rationalizations. Do the right thing.
My long term s/o just finished school and needs to find a teaching job. She's willing to go with me this fall and find a job locally. What she cannot do is find a job here for a year, then be uprooted and put into a new school next year. That is why I cannot retake. I plan on marrying this girl, so I'm not dumping her so I can re-retake the LSAT. Unless I improve my score by 15 points, I'm not getting into Michigan, and the next best law school in Michigan sucks. So wherever I go, it has to be this year.
I could defer and move to Madison this year. That would allow her to move with me and be established by the time I start school. Or I could go to UIUC this year and she would move with me there. Those are my two options. If I defer to Madison I will retake the LSAT in October for some extra money at UW.
- isuperserial
- Posts: 518
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:49 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
The cool thing is that if you move to Illinois before retaking she can get a teaching job in the area, and if you end up doing baller on the LSAT you can go to school relatively close by at Northwestern. Worst case scenario you're at UIUC with probably a similar offer, your girlfriend has her teaching job, and the two of you live happily ever after. Best case scenario you knock it out of the park on the LSAT, get a full ride to UIUC or a scholarship to NW, and you wonder why you would have ever done anything differently. I think moving to Illinois and then retaking is the optimal choice. Wisconsin seems really confining in your potential, given your situation.bugsy33 wrote:This is pretty cute, but it has nothing to do with it.WokeUpInACar wrote:You won't tell everyone the answer, but I know why you won't retake.
You put what you think is a lot of time into studying for the test, and you did what you now think is the best you can do. Getting those prep books out again would be fucking awful. You told yourself you were done with this stupid test. Getting some entry level job isn't part of THE PLAN that you've had for yourself for years, and it seems like treading water when all you want to do is progress and get where you want to be. You've told all your friends and family that you're going to law school in the fall and really don't want to deal with not doing so. You've rationalized that improving your LSAT will only be a marginal benefit; that you can't really do better enough to change anything. You "aren't a good test taker," and standardized tests have never been your strong suit. You don't want to let one silly test dictate huge life decisions like this.
Welp all of that is bullshit. It's understandable, it's human nature, but it's bullshit. You know the actual correct decision, but you're in denial due to a series of rationalizations. Do the right thing.
My long term s/o just finished school and needs to find a teaching job. She's willing to go with me this fall and find a job locally. What she cannot do is find a job here for a year, then be uprooted and put into a new school next year. That is why I cannot retake. I plan on marrying this girl, so I'm not dumping her so I can re-retake the LSAT. Unless I improve my score by 15 points, I'm not getting into Michigan, and the next best law school in Michigan sucks. So wherever I go, it has to be this year.
I could defer and move to Madison this year. That would allow her to move with me and be established by the time I start school. Or I could go to UIUC this year and she would move with me there. Those are my two options. If I defer to Madison I will retake the LSAT in October for some extra money at UW.
- CoffeeIsLife
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:25 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
It seems like the best way to improve your future, both with your SO and your job prospects is to move to whichever location you would rather be at and take a year off, gain residency, and retake for more money. That way tuition is cheaper, she wont be uprooted, and you could get more scholarship money.
There is a good chance that when you are looking for a job in 3 or 4 years after you graduate she will have to uproot her life and give up her teaching job for one in whatever location you find a job.
Edit- I can't spell
There is a good chance that when you are looking for a job in 3 or 4 years after you graduate she will have to uproot her life and give up her teaching job for one in whatever location you find a job.
Edit- I can't spell
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Not sure why you'd want to be in Wisconsin since they treat their teachers like crap, but definitely pick the place you would rather live and move there. Retake the LSAT and then either go to the state flagship heavily discounted/free or nearby t14. Don't simply defer
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
OP: Your GF needs to be sure she has a teaching job lined up in the Champaign-Urbana area before moving here if you decide on UIUC. Teaching jobs in all of Central Illinois are extremely hard to come by. I have friends with 4.0s from UIUC who can't find teaching jobs in Math or Science - and these are people who, like myself, have lived in Central Illinois their entire lives. I'm not a teacher, but I'd have to assume that most CI schools, especially the ones in the smaller communities surrounding Champaign-Urbana would much rather hire an unemployed teacher from CI than one from out of state.
Edit: I know there's been a lot of negativity directed towards you so I'm sorry to add to it. Just want to make sure you take into consideration that areas of Central Illinois have some of the highest unemployment rates in the country.
Edit: I know there's been a lot of negativity directed towards you so I'm sorry to add to it. Just want to make sure you take into consideration that areas of Central Illinois have some of the highest unemployment rates in the country.
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
OP,
Since you seem disinclined to take any advice here that doesn't suggest you go to Wisconsin at >150k COA, maybe the advice needs to be taken up a level in seriousness and tone.
Your SO probably doesn't have much of a clue what you're doing right now. Sure, she knows you're planning to go to "a top state law school" and she figures you'll become a lawyer and make good money shortly thereafter. But what she doesn't know, and what can not have possibly hit her yet, is that you're doing the following:
A. Uprooting her from her family and friends to follow you to
B. A school you are going to go 150k+ in debt for in order to
C. Get a job that will pay you LESS THAN SHE MAKES at a job that she's in ZERO debt for.
Now, in fairness, the purpose of this board is to give law school related advice. But since you don't seem inclined to listen to any of the standard advice that's been given to you, I think this is a fair warning. I know few girls--few human beings--who would wake up 3 years down the line in a relationship like that and not want to GTFO.
Since you seem disinclined to take any advice here that doesn't suggest you go to Wisconsin at >150k COA, maybe the advice needs to be taken up a level in seriousness and tone.
Your SO probably doesn't have much of a clue what you're doing right now. Sure, she knows you're planning to go to "a top state law school" and she figures you'll become a lawyer and make good money shortly thereafter. But what she doesn't know, and what can not have possibly hit her yet, is that you're doing the following:
A. Uprooting her from her family and friends to follow you to
B. A school you are going to go 150k+ in debt for in order to
C. Get a job that will pay you LESS THAN SHE MAKES at a job that she's in ZERO debt for.
Now, in fairness, the purpose of this board is to give law school related advice. But since you don't seem inclined to listen to any of the standard advice that's been given to you, I think this is a fair warning. I know few girls--few human beings--who would wake up 3 years down the line in a relationship like that and not want to GTFO.
- bugsy33
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:04 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
I'm not sure if you read all of the posts. I am not taking out greater than 150k for either of these schools. I will not be attending Wisconsin without at least gaining instate residency. I am inclined to listen to the advice being given, I'm not sure what's making you think that I'm not.daleearnhardt123 wrote:OP,
Since you seem disinclined to take any advice here that doesn't suggest you go to Wisconsin at >150k COA, maybe the advice needs to be taken up a level in seriousness and tone.
Your SO probably doesn't have much of a clue what you're doing right now. Sure, she knows you're planning to go to "a top state law school" and she figures you'll become a lawyer and make good money shortly thereafter. But what she doesn't know, and what can not have possibly hit her yet, is that you're doing the following:
A. Uprooting her from her family and friends to follow you to
B. A school you are going to go 150k+ in debt for in order to
C. Get a job that will pay you LESS THAN SHE MAKES at a job that she's in ZERO debt for.
Now, in fairness, the purpose of this board is to give law school related advice. But since you don't seem inclined to listen to any of the standard advice that's been given to you, I think this is a fair warning. I know few girls--few human beings--who would wake up 3 years down the line in a relationship like that and not want to GTFO.
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- bugsy33
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:04 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Thanks, this is really helpful advice. She's in a pretty good position to find employment. She's a special ed teacher coming from MSU (#1 special ed, and education program in the country). She's found a few job listings in UC and is in the process of applying. I still think she'd probably have an easier time finding something in Madison though since it's a larger metro area.sprinky07 wrote:OP: Your GF needs to be sure she has a teaching job lined up in the Champaign-Urbana area before moving here if you decide on UIUC. Teaching jobs in all of Central Illinois are extremely hard to come by. I have friends with 4.0s from UIUC who can't find teaching jobs in Math or Science - and these are people who, like myself, have lived in Central Illinois their entire lives. I'm not a teacher, but I'd have to assume that most CI schools, especially the ones in the smaller communities surrounding Champaign-Urbana would much rather hire an unemployed teacher from CI than one from out of state.
Edit: I know there's been a lot of negativity directed towards you so I'm sorry to add to it. Just want to make sure you take into consideration that areas of Central Illinois have some of the highest unemployment rates in the country.
- McAvoy
- Posts: 1584
- Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:33 pm
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Granted I don't know anything about the central Illinois employment market for teachers, I don't think this is a reasonable assumption at all -- It's extremely difficult to get a teaching job in your first year out of college in Madison. For one, UW is probably the most respected public ed school in the country, and they require their students to do all of their practicum and student teaching in the Madison district. Thus they take up the great majority of first-year openings. Two, the Madison school district is dirt poor, to put it lightly. Three, as the liberal enclave of the state (in a state that, generally, does treat & pay teachers like garbage) Madison is a highly desirable place for experienced teachers to move to.bugsy33 wrote:I still think she'd probably have an easier time finding something in Madison though since it's a larger metro area.
If you pick Madison, she must to go in with the mindset that she'll probably be subbing her first year.
Also, retake.
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
I wholeheartedly agree. OP brought up Wisconsin's "national" reputation which exists largely because of their undergrad and athletics.cron1834 wrote:This isn't Top-Undergrads.com. The law school is literally the only thing that matters.
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
LOL'd at all the life "potentially life ruining advice" comments directed toward me in this thread.
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Re-read OP's post and then read mine, then his again, and repeat until you see how the points I make are direct responses to comments made in the thread's first post.californiauser wrote:Giving out bad info like this should be a bannable offenseBaby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Illinois absolutely has a national reputation.
For some reason, Michigan gets elevated to God-like status but in reality it's the same school as Wisconsin (putting aside their different strengths) with Illinois only slightly behind in overall quality and prestige.
If Illinois had the same athletics as Wisconsin then it would be just as talked about among lay people. But they've had a few down seasons while Wisconsin has been on the rise - again, only talking about athletics here.
Considering the COA and percent in LTFT employment, this should be a no-brainer.
And I say this as someone who was waitlisted(!) and would like your seat and scholarship at UIUC.
Do I believe UIUC Law has a national reputation? No. But OP considers Wisconsin's national reputation (and not specifically UW Law), including among lay people; looking at the undergrad/sports/other grad programs. In those respects, the reputation of Illinois is nearly as strong. There is little appreciable difference between the universities.
Not that any of that *should* matter to bugsy. I'm happy to see he made the wisest move he could in his circumstances and opted for less debt.
Oh and please tell me how advising someone to consider COA and percent in LTFT is "bad info". I'll be waiting.
- WokeUpInACar
- Posts: 5542
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
The part of your post people are taking issue with is saying that Michigan is the same school as WisconsinBaby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Re-read OP's post and then read mine, then his again, and repeat until you see how the points I make are direct responses to comments made in the thread's first post.californiauser wrote:Giving out bad info like this should be a bannable offenseBaby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Illinois absolutely has a national reputation.
For some reason, Michigan gets elevated to God-like status but in reality it's the same school as Wisconsin (putting aside their different strengths) with Illinois only slightly behind in overall quality and prestige.
If Illinois had the same athletics as Wisconsin then it would be just as talked about among lay people. But they've had a few down seasons while Wisconsin has been on the rise - again, only talking about athletics here.
Considering the COA and percent in LTFT employment, this should be a no-brainer.
And I say this as someone who was waitlisted(!) and would like your seat and scholarship at UIUC.
Do I believe UIUC Law has a national reputation? No. But OP considers Wisconsin's national reputation overall, including among lay people; looking at the undergrad/sports/other grad programs. In those respects, the reputation of Illinois is nearly as strong.
Oh and please tell me how advising someone to consider COA and percent in LTFT is "bad info". I'll be waiting.
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Michigan and Wisconsin are incredibly similar. Michigan has better professional programs, Wisconsin has better science programs and more research spending. TLS usually tips its hand toward Michigan because of USNWR rankings, law school "prestige", alumni that actively post, and our bias toward professional programs. If there's any gap between the two it's so marginal I do not consider it significant. I think Wisconsin's QOL advantage can't be overlooked.WokeUpInACar wrote:The part of your post people are taking issue with is saying that Michigan is the same school as WisconsinBaby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Re-read OP's post and then read mine, then his again, and repeat until you see how the points I make are direct responses to comments made in the thread's first post.californiauser wrote:Giving out bad info like this should be a bannable offenseBaby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Illinois absolutely has a national reputation.
For some reason, Michigan gets elevated to God-like status but in reality it's the same school as Wisconsin (putting aside their different strengths) with Illinois only slightly behind in overall quality and prestige.
If Illinois had the same athletics as Wisconsin then it would be just as talked about among lay people. But they've had a few down seasons while Wisconsin has been on the rise - again, only talking about athletics here.
Considering the COA and percent in LTFT employment, this should be a no-brainer.
And I say this as someone who was waitlisted(!) and would like your seat and scholarship at UIUC.
Do I believe UIUC Law has a national reputation? No. But OP considers Wisconsin's national reputation overall, including among lay people; looking at the undergrad/sports/other grad programs. In those respects, the reputation of Illinois is nearly as strong.
Oh and please tell me how advising someone to consider COA and percent in LTFT is "bad info". I'll be waiting.
- cron1834
- Posts: 2299
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Just a note: education "rankings" are utter bullshit. If you think USNWR is derpy for law, well, they're a whole 'nother level of useless for education. My ed degree is from a top-ranked UNSWR ed school (higher than MSU in both overall and special ed, btw), and it doesn't mean shit. Jobs are local and budget-dependent. Prestige means very little, and being from OOS sucks. I've been through the interview wringer.
I think the best answer here is from the bro who suggested to choose Illinois (the state, not the school), sit out, and retake. Let SO get a job, and retake until you get into NU.
I think the best answer here is from the bro who suggested to choose Illinois (the state, not the school), sit out, and retake. Let SO get a job, and retake until you get into NU.
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- cron1834
- Posts: 2299
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 am
Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Dude, stop it with this. This is a law school message board. No one cares about the overall university system, and you're obviously confusing people when you say that Wisconsin and Michigan are on the same level. Dude is considering which law school to attend, not which undergrad degree to apply for.Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:WokeUpInACar wrote:Michigan and Wisconsin are incredibly similar. Michigan has better professional programs, Wisconsin has better science programs and more research spending. TLS usually tips its hand toward Michigan because of USNWR rankings, law school "prestige", alumni that actively post, and our bias toward professional programs. If there's any gap between the two it's so marginal I do not consider it significant. I think Wisconsin's QOL advantage can't be overlooked.Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:The part of your post people are taking issue with is saying that Michigan is the same school as Wisconsincaliforniauser wrote: Re-read OP's post and then read mine, then his again, and repeat until you see how the points I make are direct responses to comments made in the thread's first post.
Do I believe UIUC Law has a national reputation? No. But OP considers Wisconsin's national reputation overall, including among lay people; looking at the undergrad/sports/other grad programs. In those respects, the reputation of Illinois is nearly as strong.
Oh and please tell me how advising someone to consider COA and percent in LTFT is "bad info". I'll be waiting.
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
I'm addressing the point he raised in his first post, that Wisconsin - the whole school - has more of a national reputation than Illinois.cron1834 wrote: Dude, stop it with this. This is a law school message board. No one cares about the overall university system, and you're obviously confusing people when you say that Wisconsin and Michigan are on the same level. Dude is considering which law school to attend, not which undergrad degree to apply for.
It's really, really inconsequential.
- dsn32
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
You obviously have more considerations than simply picking a law school OP. In your spot, I'd honestly discuss it with you SO and try coming up with a plan of action for her to find work and you to retake/re-apply next cycle. I'm a fellow Michigander... from every recruiter I've talked with, you basically need to go to UM/Wayne, or a t14 to get back. That being said, there are a ton of good B1G schools that could fit your preferences (if you're willing to stay in that area) and be a great choice with a re-take. Is Columbus better for teaching jobs than Madison/Champaign? OSU lets you get in-state after a year, and dominates Ohio... not to mention its a very livable place. I'd really urge you to re-take and pick a school more or less before you re-take/re-apply. It'll give you the motivation to make sure you hit that target, get in, and get the in-state tuition (and maybe even a scholly to boot).
Minnesota/WUSTL are also good options for you, and those are much bigger metro areas for your SO to get a teaching job. Think of it as an investment. Your MSU degree will find you some type of legal work (even if its minimum wage) while you re-take/re-apply.
Minnesota/WUSTL are also good options for you, and those are much bigger metro areas for your SO to get a teaching job. Think of it as an investment. Your MSU degree will find you some type of legal work (even if its minimum wage) while you re-take/re-apply.
- rickgrimes69
- Posts: 1105
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Re: Wisconsin vs. UIUC
Bro UMich is indisputably a better school than UW, both for UG and for LS. That said, I don't really care to debate the point as their relative strength in science programs or whatever is completely fucking irrelevant for the purposes of this forum.Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:
Michigan and Wisconsin are incredibly similar. Michigan has better professional programs, Wisconsin has better science programs and more research spending. TLS usually tips its hand toward Michigan because of USNWR rankings, law school "prestige", alumni that actively post, and our bias toward professional programs. If there's any gap between the two it's so marginal I do not consider it significant. I think Wisconsin's QOL advantage can't be overlooked.
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