Life as a unicorn Forum

[twenty]

I've watched three cycles go by on TLS during my time here as a lurker/poster. One thing seems universally true of practicing TLSers -- people that are actually in the legal practice seem to dislike it. Huge generalization here, yes, but I think it's warranted to an extent. Then I read this over here, and okay, bear with me here, but "as a 0L", I don't really get it. Like, I get that the guy in the latter thread is borderline suicidal, but at the point where he only has 150k of student loan debt at a V5, that potentially articulates either:

1) This guy had ridiculously unrealistic expectations about what post-graduation work life would look like.
2) Even at the "unicornish job" that is V5 (and better yet, with only 150k of debt), law school outcomes suck.

OP did everything right -- he went to a top school with (comparatively) minimal debt, got the single-best biglaw gig there was with the best exit options available, and he's still hugely miserable. There is nothing he could have done differently except:

If I would have done it differently? In an ideal world, I wouldn't have gone to law school.

In a world where OP literally ended up with one of the single-best employment outcomes in the profession, is he being unrealistic about what he thought he was getting into? Probably not. If he'd been on TLS back in the day, his choosing post would have probably looked something like this:

Hey TLS! I'm in the extremely fortunate position of being able to choose between Columbia with 90k and Vandy with a full ride. Since this is 2010 and the economy is shot to shit, while I have ties to the south, I want biglaw first and foremost. What should I do?

...if there was a single poll vote for Vandy, I'd be surprised.

It has also occurred to me that no one asks 0Ls that are choosing why they want to clerk. They apparently want to, because every third choosing OP "really wants to clerk" but has no idea what that actually is. For some unknown reason, no one "really wants to be on law review" which is about the same in terms of make-believe academic masturbation, but is really excited about doing the one legal job that is one of the least-related to the actual practice of law.

There was a gas leak in my building once, and I was outside peeing in the alley because my brother was using the bathroom connecting with nature, and suddenly I see all these people running out of my building. Now, I wasn't the brightest kid, but my first thought isn't "I really want to go inside my building!" my first thought is "I better get the fuck out of here." When people leave consistently leave biglaw voluntarily at the "burn out point (incidentally when they pay off their loans)," that should be an indicator that they can't stand it and don't want to be there anymore. Do you, oh 0L, really want to be somewhere where almost everyone can't wait to get out of? Your first thought should be of running away, not running in.

Notice how we're not even talking about the less-great scenarios where a law grad ends up doing document review because they missed the OCI boat, or their fellowship ran out and the PI organization said "oh, sorry, still no funding, too bad." and kicked the grad to the curb. We're only talking about scenarios where people in the choosing forum say "you should go to x school because it places really well in A3 + biglaw."

So here's my advocacy:

1) Insist that 0Ls not go to any law school for more than, say, 90k COA. (I actually think this should be lower, but whatever.)*
2) Explain that at 200k COA (which assumes a small to reasonable scholarship), trying to repay that debt over a 4-5 year period means paying 40-50k a year of post-tax salary, which, as an entry-level biglaw kid, means your take-home will be 60k on the high end, and that's for 60+ hour workweeks.
3) Insist that K-JDs find/have a job for at least a year before applying. If nothing else, this makes them more competitive at OCI. As someone who's worked 40 hours/week, there is no way in hell I would work 60, let alone the occasional 80. Ideally, this job is with a big law firm the OP hopes to one day join.
4) TLS starts actually coming to the table with things other than "lol don't go to law school" -- look, at the point where the thread I quote above is in the legal employment forum that 0Ls aren't even supposed to be posting in, there's zero opportunity for engagement. If biglaw is shitty, tell us how it's shitty. If debt is the worst thing ever, explain how you want to leave, but can't. Explain how much it sucks watching every other dollar being flushed down the proverbial toilet that is your loan servicer. If there's a specific career path you think OP might enjoy instead of biglaw, recommend that instead. If you have friends at law school that are much happier without debt and were able to find a job they wanted, tell them that too.

* "but I'm a splitter!" "but I've already taken three times!" and my personal favorites "I don't want to retake" "I'm not going to do better than 165" are not reasons why this number should go up.

(edit> if you have super rich parents to the point where dropping that kind of money on your legal education truly means nothing, then hey, go nuts)

[Pragmatic Gun]

I think the first point is something many here already advocate, at least in my experience. When I created the thread asking the forum whether I should attend GULC at sticker or GW at 75% scholly, voters by a sweeping majority chose the latter option. In fact, because many forum members insisted, I'm retaking the LSAT in June. Even if I don't break more than 170, I could still be looking at an upgrade in scholarship at GW.

I think in general this has to do with the way the profession has become seriously warped. Aspiring lawyers are incentivized to seek big law work to pay off their bills. Not many of the 0LsI know are desperate to work at big law firms. I don't want to work a big law job, but my main goal is to chase down PI unicorn jobs at the UN, and I need a stable position with opportunities for lateral movement to at least make that a tenable proposition. I can't hunt white whales if I ain't got a sturdy ship.

[bk1]

Random thoughts:

• 150k is still a lot of debt. Even in biglaw that will probably take at least a half decade to pay back.
• As for 0Ls and clerking, I discussed that a few weeks ago here and tend to agree with you that 0Ls should be challenged more on this point. I will say that based on the almost universally glowing reviews that people give of their clerkship experiences, it's not really surprising that tons of 0Ls say they want to clerk.
• Often biglaw isn't an end goal but more of a stepping stone to the exit options that biglaw provides (even 0Ls talk this way).
• Plenty of people on TLS have for years insisted that 0Ls would be better off getting WE before going to law school for the sake of their own maturity.
• Can't really blame TLS for only now just coming around to life in biglaw considering it is only just now that a significant TLS cohort has spent a bit of time in biglaw.

[riverwater]

So here's my advocacy:

1) Insist that 0Ls not go to any law school for more than, say, 90k COA. (I actually think this should be lower, but whatever.)*
...

* "but parents are willing to pay!" ... are not reasons why this number should go up.

Meh. If your parents are down to pay for HYS over a scholly at CCN, or CCN over a scholly at the rest of the T14, fine. That shouldn't be criminal -- it's just good fortune. (Not in that position, personally.)

[cotiger]

1) Insist that 0Ls not go to any law school for more than, say, 90k COA. (I actually think this should be lower, but whatever.)*

* "but parents are willing to pay!" ... are not reasons why this number should go up.

No law school unless full ride! Or at least $150k.

I feel you about keeping debt manageable, but that's quite some statement.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It has also occurred to me that no one asks 0Ls that are choosing why they want to clerk. They apparently want to, because every third choosing OP "really wants to clerk" but has no idea what that actually is. For some unknown reason, no one "really wants to be on law review" which is about the same in terms of make-believe academic masturbation, but is really excited about doing the one legal job that is one of the least-related to the actual practice of law.

I realize this is tangential to your main point, and that I'm a clerkship gunner so not to be trusted on the subject, but I disagree with the specifics above. Clerking is nothing like being on law review - some of the skills you need for LR/get through being on LR are relevant, but that doesn't make clerking like being on LR. In clerking you work on real cases, not on some law prof's pontifications about the influence of Bulgarian literature on the development of the Constitution or what have you. And I think that clerking is actually very related to the actual practice of law, with one caveat - as long as you're going into litigation. It doesn't teach you how to practice directly , but it teaches you stuff that's relevant to practice, and I'm much better as a practitioner having clerked first. (It's not the only way to get that knowledge, but that's not the point.)

I agree that there are probably plenty of 0Ls say they want to clerk without really knowing what that means, and that's a problem, but I don't think those are the reasons why.

(Sorry to dwell on a more tangential point.)

[bk1]

I think the problem is not that 0Ls don't really know what clerking entails (which, imo, isn't all that important since you only do it for a year, maybe 2) but that they can't really articulate why it is so valuable to a realistic career path they want to pursue such that they should pay more money to go to a school that places more clerks (e.g. going to HYS at sticker over substantial scholarship at a lower ranked school).

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think the problem is not that 0Ls don't really know what clerking entails (which, imo, isn't all that important since you only do it for a year, maybe 2) but that they can't really articulate why it is so valuable to a realistic career path they want to pursue such that they should pay more money to go to a school that places more clerks (e.g. going to HYS at sticker over substantial scholarship at a lower ranked school).

Yes, I agree with this. I mean, tons of the 0Ls who aren't sure what they want to do are going to end up going to NYC transactional biglaw, and picking a more expensive school based on clerking prospects for that outcome is pointless.

[Jchance]

have u read --LinkRemoved--?


by talented artist at WaitButWhy

[09042014]

Random thoughts:

• 150k is still a lot of debt. Even in biglaw that will probably take at least a half decade to pay back.
• As for 0Ls and clerking, I discussed that a few weeks ago here and tend to agree with you that 0Ls should be challenged more on this point. I will say that based on the almost universally glowing reviews that people give of their clerkship experiences, it's not really surprising that tons of 0Ls say they want to clerk.
• Often biglaw isn't an end goal but more of a stepping stone to the exit options that biglaw provides (even 0Ls talk this way).
• Plenty of people on TLS have for years insisted that 0Ls would be better off getting WE before going to law school for the sake of their own maturity.
• Can't really blame TLS for only now just coming around to life in biglaw considering it is only just now that a significant TLS cohort has spent a bit of time in biglaw.

CITE YOUR SOURCES! http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=226592

[bk1]

CITE YOUR SOURCES! http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=226592

lol, forgot you made that thread.

[Nomo]

Its true that nobody knows why the want to clerk. But, its also true that nobody knows why they want transactional or litigation; much less whether they want to do ERISA, anti-trust, or securities litigation. Likewise, most people can't explain why they want "government." Nor can they explain why they want to do impact litigation. When people say they want to do biglaw, impact litigation, bigfed, international law, etc. I'm pretty sure they are really saying: I want a particular group of people to think I'm awesome. They are defining happiness as if its an image, thinking they'll be happy once certain accomplishments are achieved, once they get to wear certain clothes, drive certain cars, or make important decisions. This is a classic young person's mistake (I certainly made it) . . . and it fails to recognize that wherever you go and whatever you do you'll likely be surrounded by people who are just as accomplished, who wear just as fancy suits, and who make just as important decisions. And you will be comparing yourself to people who are more accomplished, who wear better suits, and make even more important decisions.

As crazy as it sounds people flock to this profession in order to be cool. This profession will not make you cool; at least not cooler than any of the people you will interact with on a regular basis.

[09042014]

Its true that nobody knows why the want to clerk. But, its also true that nobody knows why they want transactional or litigation; much less whether they want to do ERISA, anti-trust, or securities litigation. Likewise, most people can't explain why they want "government." Nor can they explain why they want to do impact litigation. When people say they want to do biglaw, impact litigation, bigfed, international law, etc. I'm pretty sure they are really saying: I want a particular group of people to think I'm awesome. They are defining happiness as if its an image, thinking they'll be happy once certain accomplishments are achieved, once they get to wear certain clothes, drive certain cars, or make important decisions. This is a classic young person's mistake (I certainly made it) . . . and it fails to recognize that wherever you go and whatever you do you'll likely be surrounded by people who are just as accomplished, who wear just as fancy suits, and who make just as important decisions. And you will be comparing yourself to people who are more accomplished, who wear better suits, and make even more important decisions.

As crazy as it sounds people flock to this profession in order to be cool. This profession will not make you cool; at least not cooler than any of the people you will interact with on a regular basis.

But you are neglecting the biggest problem with the "You wanna clerk? Better Pay sticker at Chicago!" shtick. Clerking is a temp gig. Usually one, maybe two years. It's on its face a retarded "Career" plan.

[UnicornHunter]

I think something like 60-80% of the entering 1Ls at top schools come into law school wanting to "do PI" (I've seen this multiple times. I realize my post would be more persuasive if I had a source.) Most probably only have a vague idea of what they want to do, but they have ambition, they're generally smart, and they've been on a certain path their entire lives. Law school seems like a way for them to fulfill their potential.

The guy you're talking about said something like "every day I spend at the firm takes me farther from my goals*." A lot of the people quoted in the "where are they now" Harvard article said similar things. My impression is that the people who come into law school with vague ideas of using their intelligence to make the world a better place while still having a sufficiently prestigious job title are the ones who end up the most miserable, because they invariably will feel like they failed to accomplish their true goals.

I like your advocacy, but I would add one more item to the list: If you think you want to "do PI" but a) have never held a full-time job in the field and b) cannot point to a SPECIFIC PI job that REQUIRES a JD that you want and you know you can get if you do reasonably well (median) at school x, do not go to law school. Period. End stop.

Also, do not go to law school if you like "Suits."

*Disclaimer: I do not claim to be precise with my quotes.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

No law school unless full ride! .

Great advice--it's hard to have a bad outcome this way (even if you miss biglaw).

[Nomo]

Its true that nobody knows why the want to clerk. But, its also true that nobody knows why they want transactional or litigation; much less whether they want to do ERISA, anti-trust, or securities litigation. Likewise, most people can't explain why they want "government." Nor can they explain why they want to do impact litigation. When people say they want to do biglaw, impact litigation, bigfed, international law, etc. I'm pretty sure they are really saying: I want a particular group of people to think I'm awesome. They are defining happiness as if its an image, thinking they'll be happy once certain accomplishments are achieved, once they get to wear certain clothes, drive certain cars, or make important decisions. This is a classic young person's mistake (I certainly made it) . . . and it fails to recognize that wherever you go and whatever you do you'll likely be surrounded by people who are just as accomplished, who wear just as fancy suits, and who make just as important decisions. And you will be comparing yourself to people who are more accomplished, who wear better suits, and make even more important decisions.

As crazy as it sounds people flock to this profession in order to be cool. This profession will not make you cool; at least not cooler than any of the people you will interact with on a regular basis.

But you are neglecting the biggest problem with the "You wanna clerk? Better Pay sticker at Chicago!" shtick. Clerking is a temp gig. Usually one, maybe two years. It's on its face a retarded "Career" plan.

That's a great point and I think it really delves to the heart of the matter. People want to clerk because they think it will make their resume or law firm bio look awesome. People are literally trading their life away for a better looking law firm bio.

That's not a point against clerking. I think I got a lot out of my clerkship. But, its only value is that it might help you be a slightly better litigator early in your career or it might help you get a job you otherwise couldn't land. It should never be listed as a goal on TLS.

[09042014]

No law school unless full ride! .

Great advice--it's hard to have a bad outcome this way (even if you miss biglaw).

(ends up being a LAWYER)

[cotiger]

No law school unless full ride! .

Great advice--it's hard to have a bad outcome this way (even if you miss biglaw).

The point was that if for instance you get $120k to UChi + $15k savings + $20k/yr from fam, that's only $45k in debt. COA is $120k (well over twenty's limit), but it's tough for me to conceive of that as a bad position.

Except of course for DF's (becomes a LAWYER) point.

[The Dark Shepard]

This thread has a lot of points, and I don't actually know which one I'm going for yet.

I've watched three cycles go by on TLS during my time here as a lurker/poster. One thing seems universally true of practicing TLSers -- people that are actually in the legal practice seem to dislike it. Huge generalization here, yes, but I think it's warranted to an extent. Then I read this over here, and okay, bear with me here, but "as a 0L", I don't really get it. Like, I get that the guy in the latter thread is borderline suicidal, but at the point where he only has 150k of student loan debt at a V5, that potentially articulates either:

1) This guy had ridiculously unrealistic expectations about what post-graduation work life would look like.
2) Even at the "unicornish job" that is V5 (and better yet, with only 150k of debt), law school outcomes suck.

OP did everything right -- he went to a top school with (comparatively) minimal debt, got the single-best biglaw gig there was with the best exit options available, and he's still hugely miserable. There is nothing he could have done differently except:

If I would have done it differently? In an ideal world, I wouldn't have gone to law school.

In a world where OP literally ended up with one of the single-best employment outcomes in the profession, is he being unrealistic about what he thought he was getting into? Probably not. If he'd been on TLS back in the day, his choosing post would have probably looked something like this:

Hey TLS! I'm in the extremely fortunate position of being able to choose between Columbia with 90k and Vandy with a full ride. Since this is 2010 and the economy is shot to shit, while I have ties to the south, I want biglaw first and foremost. What should I do?

...if there was a single poll vote for Vandy, I'd be surprised.

It has also occurred to me that no one asks 0Ls that are choosing why they want to clerk. They apparently want to, because every third choosing OP "really wants to clerk" but has no idea what that actually is. For some unknown reason, no one "really wants to be on law review" which is about the same in terms of make-believe academic masturbation, but is really excited about doing the one legal job that is one of the least-related to the actual practice of law.

There was a gas leak in my building once, and I was outside peeing in the alley because my brother was using the bathroom connecting with nature, and suddenly I see all these people running out of my building. Now, I wasn't the brightest kid, but my first thought isn't "I really want to go inside my building!" my first thought is "I better get the fuck out of here." When people leave consistently leave biglaw voluntarily at the "burn out point (incidentally when they pay off their loans)," that should be an indicator that they can't stand it and don't want to be there anymore. Do you, oh 0L, really want to be somewhere where almost everyone can't wait to get out of? Your first thought should be of running away, not running in.

Notice how we're not even talking about the less-great scenarios where a law grad ends up doing document review because they missed the OCI boat, or their fellowship ran out and the PI organization said "oh, sorry, still no funding, too bad." and kicked the grad to the curb. We're only talking about scenarios where people in the choosing forum say "you should go to x school because it places really well in A3 + biglaw."

So here's my advocacy:

1) Insist that 0Ls not go to any law school for more than, say, 90k COA. (I actually think this should be lower, but whatever.)*
2) Explain that at 200k COA (which assumes a small to reasonable scholarship), trying to repay that debt over a 4-5 year period means paying 40-50k a year of post-tax salary, which, as an entry-level biglaw kid, means your take-home will be 60k on the high end, and that's for 60+ hour workweeks.
3) Insist that K-JDs find/have a job for at least a year before applying. If nothing else, this makes them more competitive at OCI. As someone who's worked 40 hours/week, there is no way in hell I would work 60, let alone the occasional 80. Ideally, this job is with a big law firm the OP hopes to one day join.
4) TLS starts actually coming to the table with things other than "lol don't go to law school" -- look, at the point where the thread I quote above is in the legal employment forum that 0Ls aren't even supposed to be posting in, there's zero opportunity for engagement. If biglaw is shitty, tell us how it's shitty. If debt is the worst thing ever, explain how you want to leave, but can't. Explain how much it sucks watching every other dollar being flushed down the proverbial toilet that is your loan servicer. If there's a specific career path you think OP might enjoy instead of biglaw, recommend that instead. If you have friends at law school that are much happier without debt and were able to find a job they wanted, tell them that too.

* "but parents are willing to pay!" "but I'm a splitter!" "but I've already taken three times!" and my personal favorites "I don't want to retake" "I'm not going to do better than 165" are not reasons why this number should go up.

I don't understand how TLS is so aware of the legal market glut but seem to think jobs out of undergrad grow on trees, particularly if you aren't a STEM or business major

[bk1]

I don't understand how TLS is so aware of the legal market glut but seem to think jobs out of undergrad grow on trees, particularly if you aren't a STEM or business major

Nobody's saying the regular job market is great. But the regular job market doesn't cost an additional 3 years of your life and 6 figures of debt to enter.

[Nomo]

Regular job market is terrible. I think everyone knows that. But, if its stringer together a couple part-time jobs or going to Wake Forest for a quarter million dollars I would string together multiple shitty part-time jobs. Nothing against Wake Forest there are at least 100 schools that you could substitute.

[Splitter1415]

I want a unicorn job and that's the only reason I'm going to apply to law school. It seems like I need to be prepared to have my heart broken.

[vinnnyvincenzo]

As someone who's worked 40 hours/week, there is no way in hell I would work 60, let alone the occasional 80. Ideally, this job is with a big law firm the OP hopes to one day join.

good luck getting anywhere in any career refusing to work shit hours.

[09042014]

As someone who's worked 40 hours/week, there is no way in hell I would work 60, let alone the occasional 80. Ideally, this job is with a big law firm the OP hopes to one day join.

good luck getting anywhere in any career refusing to work shit hours.

Have you worked 40 hours for more than 6 months straight, let alone over 60.

[bearsfan23]

So since every Yale student has a COA of greater than 100k, Yale isn't worth it for anyone?

What a fucking dumb thread