Rely on Columbia LRAP or go for the cheap? Forum

[Anon. E. Moose]

As usual, please don't quote.

-The schools you are considering
Columbia, UVA, Michigan

-The total Cost of Attendance
Columbia ($200K/$230K)
UVA ($150K)
Michigan ($80K)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Scholarships ($50,000 at Columbia, $60,000 at UVA, and $135,000 at Michigan)
Loans (interest-free from my parents at UVA or Michigan, or possibly federal loans for Columbia to rely on the relatively generous LRAP. But I could also do interest-free for Columbia if I decided to do biglaw or other "non-qualifying employment.")

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties
From DC area but lived several different places (NY, TX, etc). Would love to return to DC, but my SO is in performing arts and might be auditioning around the country. SO is in Chicago for the next year but willing to move to where I am after.

-Your general career goals
Currently interested in "BigFed" work in a national security agency, also interested in JAG. Less interested in biglaw but I don't know much about it - perhaps that will change.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
175, 3.7_

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
Once

I had decided on UVA over Michigan but just recently got Columbia's offer. I would be very interested in Columbia if not for the price. The "x" factor with Columbia is the LRAP - if I did JAG or federal government work, the 10 year cost looks more like $100,000-$120,000, which I think is a good value. Columbia's LRAP does amortize the debt, which is nice if I got out of qualifying employment at some point.

Is it crazy to turn down Michigan if I want to work in DC? Is the Ivy League degree (my others are not extremely prestigious) worth a bunch of cold, hard cash if I want to work in the government? Are LRAPs here to stay?

[09042014]

You'd be crazy to turn down Columbia. After all, do you really think someone prefers public school grads over Ivy League grads?

[IAFG]

I mean we're speculating what bigfed hiring will look like in several years. Right now I would NOT paint myself into a corner that assumes bigfed because those jobs are practically unicorn jobs. In your shoes I would assume a couple years in biglaw will be necessary to get there.

Another concern: bigfed pays well. I don't know enough about CLS's LRAP to speculate but I sorta doubt it will be all that helpful for most fed jobs (especially say 5 years in).

[BanjoCalhoun]

That's a huge offer from Michigan to turn down and maybe you'd want to be closer to your SO in Chicago but couldn't tell from the post. There are a lot of shifting variables here but I actually think UVA is objectively the weakest option of the three aside from your DC preference. CLS and UM look best depending on your goals.

The LRAP could still make sense but as IAFG said, if you actually get a federal job you might not qualify for long. I don't know how secure the CLS program is but you should try to learn it in detail. A lot might depend on how serious your public v. private commitment is which I couldn't tell from this post.

[mt2165]

I was/am in a similar position and I've chosen taking the money for a couple of reasons. I don't want to have a huge debt over head for a decade, thus restricting what I can and cannot do. I'm not 100% committed to PI and by the chance you either change your mind in law school or thereafter you are straddled with life altering debt. And finally I would rather be in the position of doing a few years of biglaw, pay off most of my debt and have a (non-negligible) chance at the PI/Gov job I've always wanted then in the case of my second point, being trapped in an LRAP bind or being straddled with the kind of debt where it would be significantly harder to make any career transition.

[buffalo_]

I mean we're speculating what bigfed hiring will look like in several years. Right now I would NOT paint myself into a corner that assumes bigfed because those jobs are practically unicorn jobs. In your shoes I would assume a couple years in biglaw will be necessary to get there.

Another concern: bigfed pays well. I don't know enough about CLS's LRAP to speculate but I sorta doubt it will be all that helpful for most fed jobs (especially say 5 years in).

Will still help some. There is no income cap on CLS LRAP, you just pay a portion of debt above $X amount (X varies depending on if you go with the govt supplemented program or not).

You are certainly in a tough situation. UM is really cheap. UVA probably does the best with DC. But CLS will give the most "prestigious" degree, which leads to better shot at V5 and V10 which leads to better shot at "BigFed."

The good thing about CLS LRAP is that it is not dependent on the federal government. You can combine the fed program and their LRAP for additional savings, but if the fed program disappeared, CLS existing program is still very good.

If you have enough cash to finance all (or most) of CLS now, and that is where you want to go, you could take out the loans and see where you end up working when you graduate. If it does not look like you will be able to do PI and get LRAP, or if you change your mind and do BigLaw, you could use the money you save now to pay off almost all of the debt (only the interest accumulated over three years would be left). That would cost you a little bit more, but it also gives you flexibility. If you do end up in PI, then you have all that extra cash that you didn't burn on tuition that is being reimbursed anyway.

ETA: I just realized, it does not look like you have CASH for CLS, you could just borrow at 0% from you parents (but obviously this eliminates LRAP). This makes UM much more appealing than I initially thought. But maybe you can work out a deal with your parents where they will either pay the interest while you are in school so you still graduate with 200k, or if they will "refinance" your debt (foot the bill and then you owe them 230k at 0%) at graduation if you end up in non-LRAP employment.

[Anon. E. Moose]

For Columbia I could "refinance" with my parents if necessary (fell in love with Biglaw, etc.). I think Columbia is the "best" school (job placement, "prestige," connections, etc.) but TLS conventional wisdom says follow the money...

I had leaned towards UVA over Michigan before I got Columbia offer because long-term, both SO and I would rather be DC/East Coast than Midwest (even though Michigan is closer to SO for a year). I'm having a really hard time letting go of Michigan, though - it feels like putting $70,000 in the shredder to go to UVA, but it's got marginally better job stats than Michigan, better location, better DC placement.

[Nomo]

Michigan is too cheap to turn down.

just make sure to do your 1L and 2L summers in DC. 2L spring you can do a semester long externship in DC. You'll be ok, its a national school.

[buffalo_]

For Columbia I could "refinance" with my parents if necessary (fell in love with Biglaw, etc.). I think Columbia is the "best" school (job placement, "prestige," connections, etc.) but TLS conventional wisdom says follow the money...

I had leaned towards UVA over Michigan before I got Columbia offer because long-term, both SO and I would rather be DC/East Coast than Midwest (even though Michigan is closer to SO for a year). I'm having a really hard time letting go of Michigan, though - it feels like putting $70,000 in the shredder to go to UVA, but it's got marginally better job stats than Michigan, better location, better DC placement.

Your choice should probably be CLS vs UM, not UVA. The "bonus" of UVA in DC is not enough to cover the gap in costs. CLS will have the most national travel of all three. UM should be able to get you to NYC though.

[IAFG]

Michigan is too cheap to turn down.

just make sure to do your 1L and 2L summers in DC. 2L spring you can do a semester long externship in DC. You'll be ok, its a national school.

This isn't good advice. DC doesn't care where you spent your summers, to the extent they care about ties it's more to the work than to the geography. Better to do an externship that focuses on the subject matter you're shooting for, in any city (eg the Chicago office of SEC to work at the SEC) than in DC on something more tangential.

[twenty]

I would do Michigan.

The problem with bigfed is that the salary jumps up from, like, 56k to 108k over a period of four years and then plateaus around there indefinitely. No LRAP is going to cover you at 108k, so you'll be doing straight-up PAYE for 6-7 years pretty much no matter what. At that point, just get "interest free loans" for the 80k from your parents and pay them off based on your government/biglaw salary.

If you are not absolutely sold on the idea of a specific kind of PI (i.e, not just "fedgov" but like, mortgage insurance/fair housing law -> HUD), count on doing biglaw. In fact, even with the end goal perspective of wanting to lateral into fedgov, I'd recommend starting in biglaw.

[dixiecupdrinking]

If "interest free" means your parents are paying for you to go to school (just own it man, don't try to keep it real with this "but I have to pay them back!" noise) then it depends how much you value their money.

But if you value their money more than zero, go to Michigan.

[jbagelboy]

I'd do Columbia and depend on LRAP. If you decide to go for a firm, just have your parents help pay down the loans.

Doesn't seem like a terribly difficult decision here unless it would impose substantial burden on your parents to help out with tuition, in which case Michigan comes back into play.

[Nomo]

Michigan is too cheap to turn down.

just make sure to do your 1L and 2L summers in DC. 2L spring you can do a semester long externship in DC. You'll be ok, its a national school.

This isn't good advice. DC doesn't care where you spent your summers, to the extent they care about ties it's more to the work than to the geography. Better to do an externship that focuses on the subject matter you're shooting for, in any city (eg the Chicago office of SEC to work at the SEC) than in DC on something more tangential.

Agreed. The idea of doing internships in DC was more based on the fact that you like it there and that most of the bigfed internships seem to be there.

[buffalo_]

I would do Michigan.

The problem with bigfed is that the salary jumps up from, like, 56k to 108k over a period of four years and then plateaus around there indefinitely. No LRAP is going to cover you at 108k, so you'll be doing straight-up PAYE for 6-7 years pretty much no matter what. At that point, just get "interest free loans" for the 80k from your parents and pay them off based on your government/biglaw salary.

If you are not absolutely sold on the idea of a specific kind of PI (i.e, not just "fedgov" but like, mortgage insurance/fair housing law -> HUD), count on doing biglaw. In fact, even with the end goal perspective of wanting to lateral into fedgov, I'd recommend starting in biglaw.

CLS LRAP covers you at 108k.

The formula would be: 108k-54k * 34.5% or something to figure out your annual repayment.

If you combine CLS LRAP with PAYE (the school offers this as an option), it's more like 108k-71k * 34.5%.

In either case after 2027 (10 years post LS), you won't owe anything and will have no tax bomb.

[Nelson]

There's no meaningful difference between these schools for OP's stated (unrealistic) goals. He's going to need baller grades from either. It's not like median Columbia kids are getting DOJ honors. Since he'll end up in biglaw with everyone else, he should save the money and take Michigan. Choosing UVA for double the price is dumb, choosing Columbia for triple is insane.

[dixiecupdrinking]

There's no meaningful difference between these schools for OP's stated (unrealistic) goals. He's going to need baller grades from either. It's not like median Columbia kids are getting DOJ honors. Since he'll end up in biglaw with everyone else, he should save the money and take Michigan. Choosing UVA for double the price is dumb, choosing Columbia for triple is insane.

+a million

[09042014]

There's no meaningful difference between these schools for OP's stated (unrealistic) goals. He's going to need baller grades from either. It's not like median Columbia kids are getting DOJ honors. Since he'll end up in biglaw with everyone else, he should save the money and take Michigan. Choosing UVA for double the price is dumb, choosing Columbia for triple is insane.

No way. CLS places 21 whole students in Government all levels. 21! And only like 1/3rd of those are probably school funded! He'd be CRAZY to turn it down.

[buffalo_]

There's no meaningful difference between these schools for OP's stated (unrealistic) goals. He's going to need baller grades from either. It's not like median Columbia kids are getting DOJ honors. Since he'll end up in biglaw with everyone else, he should save the money and take Michigan. Choosing UVA for double the price is dumb, choosing Columbia for triple is insane.

There is lots of fed govt stuff outside of DOJ Honors. OP even says they want national security, not DOJ.

It is true that "BigFed" is tough, but if you are open to what govt work you do there are more options outside of preftigious PI.

[dixiecupdrinking]

There's no meaningful difference between these schools for OP's stated (unrealistic) goals. He's going to need baller grades from either. It's not like median Columbia kids are getting DOJ honors. Since he'll end up in biglaw with everyone else, he should save the money and take Michigan. Choosing UVA for double the price is dumb, choosing Columbia for triple is insane.

There is lots of fed govt stuff outside of DOJ Honors. OP even says they want national security, not DOJ.

It is true that "BigFed" is tough, but if you are open to what govt work you do there are more options outside of preftigious PI.

You did not address the main thrust of this post, which was that CLS is not meaningfully superior to Michigan for these jobs.

That's without even getting into the tenuous suggestion that "national security" legal jobs are somehow easy to get as long as you'll take a non-prestigious one. (?!)

[buffalo_]

There's no meaningful difference between these schools for OP's stated (unrealistic) goals. He's going to need baller grades from either. It's not like median Columbia kids are getting DOJ honors. Since he'll end up in biglaw with everyone else, he should save the money and take Michigan. Choosing UVA for double the price is dumb, choosing Columbia for triple is insane.

There is lots of fed govt stuff outside of DOJ Honors. OP even says they want national security, not DOJ.

It is true that "BigFed" is tough, but if you are open to what govt work you do there are more options outside of preftigious PI.

You did not address the main thrust of this post, which was that CLS is not meaningfully superior to Michigan for these jobs.

This is true. It is hard to say if CLS is superior. Self-selection makes looking at the placement numbers relatively meaningless. CLS is simply going to have many more people that want BigLaw than government.

If your goal is to go directly into FedGov, then it's hard to determine if there is a difference in placing power. And the only (flawed) evidence we have will point you to Michigan. I don't know what their LRAP is, but at $80k you aren't going to save much money even if CLS = totally covered and UM = nothing covered (which is not the case).

However, if your goal is BigLaw at V10 -> FedGov (which is probably a more likely path) then CLS will help you more at the top of the vault rankings. You can get NYC BigLaw out of both.

[Nelson]

However, if your goal is BigLaw at V10 -> FedGov (which is probably a more likely path) then CLS will help you more at the top of the vault rankings. You can get NYC BigLaw out of both.

JFC. Assuming OP has any legitimate bases for his stated preferences. Fed gov = litigation (maybe regulatory, but 0Ls don't know jackshit about regulatory practice). Columbia's advantage for V10 transactional (if it exists) is totally meaningless to someone who (purportedly) doesn't want to work in corporate practice. Something tells me that OP's stated preference for national security work means that he isn't particularly interested in financial services regulation (pretty much the only gov't exit option from transactional practice).

Show me the big advantage Columbia has in DC litigation that's worth $150k+.

[McAvoy]

If your parents can afford to loan you 200K for Columbia, they can probably afford to wait on being paid back for a really, really long time. How old are they?

[koalacity]

However, if your goal is BigLaw at V10 -> FedGov (which is probably a more likely path) then CLS will help you more at the top of the vault rankings. You can get NYC BigLaw out of both.

JFC. Assuming OP has any legitimate bases for his stated preferences. Fed gov = litigation (maybe regulatory, but 0Ls don't know jackshit about regulatory practice). Columbia's advantage for V10 transactional (if it exists) is totally meaningless to someone who (purportedly) doesn't want to work in corporate practice. Something tells me that OP's stated preference for national security work means that he isn't particularly interested in financial services regulation (pretty much the only gov't exit option from transactional practice).

Show me the big advantage Columbia has in DC litigation that's worth $150k+.

OTOH, Michigan only had 49% biglaw for c/o 2013. That's scary. The chances of getting biglaw out of Mich, let alone DC biglaw, are not that great.

eta: that said, I'm not necessarily arguing Columbia is worth the extra money here. But I'm not sure it's accurate to say that Michigan and Columbia will give OP comparable shots at competitive litigation firms.

[Nelson]

OTOH, Michigan only had 49% biglaw for c/o 2013. That's scary. The chances of getting biglaw out of Mich, let alone DC biglaw, are not that great.

The gap between these schools is not worth 100k and it's definitely not worth 150k.