Penn vs Chicago Forum

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I got a 45k scholarship, or financial aid offer, whatever they call it now these days from both schools. Neither are subjected to decrease with SA earnings.

Currently trying to negotiate more from each, but I doubt I will get anything significantly more from either school at this point (past history on mylsn indicates my numbers should get me 60k max). Given their similar cost of living, the COA for both schools would be roughly equal.

Currently sitting on the waitlist for Harvard, Columbia

Havent heard from: Stanford, Cornell

My general goals are to basically work big law somewhere in a large market, probably something like Cali/Chicago/NYC, Texas and DC if my grades allow it.

If I dont like it I would look forward to move in-house, preferably a tech company like Google/Microsoft. (Not IP-Eligible currently, but I dont think I am that far off (have science credits), ill get a master in Comp sci or something of the sort if I really fall in love with IP related stuff during law school).

Somewhere down the road I would like to do some adjunct teaching. I am indifferent to clerkships given my goals, or should I be indifferent to it?

I would also like to have mobility to move across nations (Asia/Canada), so international reputation is somewhat important.

My parents are also not rich, so if I were to get in Harvard/Stanford, I would get significant aid, and I think it would be no a brainer to go those schools.

I will update this thread/add a poll once I hear from back from Cornell/Stanford, and include a poll then. But I would like some preliminary opinions on Chicago vs Penn at equal cost, also if you believe one school is better than the other for me, how much $$$ should it take for me to swing the other way? Perhaps I will get some more $$$ from either school, but I dont know.

Also, should I consider Columbia at sticker if I get off? or Cornell with significant $$$$?

From my visit here is my thoughts on the schools so far

Chicago: Serves as ties to a large market already, more intense/rigorous environment
Upenn: University city is super friendly/chill, more liveable/easier transition from where I am from

[lawschool2014hopeful]

Anyone?

[banjo]

Penn because of ungraded legal writing and you only have to suffer through finals two times per year.

[jumpin munkey]

I am at Penn. Obviously see if you can get more from either school, but I don't know anything about negotiating.

I think it somewhat depends on where you are from/where you have ties. Penn and Chicago don't have very dissimilar outcomes generally speaking, but Chicago clearly has an edge in elite jobs and clerkships and probably has an edge in almost all the markets you seem to want. If all you wanted was NYC, you should probably just pick whichever appeals to you more (and ungraded legal writing isn't nothing). But if you're seriously considering Chicago, Texas, DC, and California, you'll have an easier time from Chicago unless you're from Texas or something.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I am at Penn. Obviously see if you can get more from either school, but I don't know anything about negotiating.

I think it somewhat depends on where you are from/where you have ties. Penn and Chicago don't have very dissimilar outcomes generally speaking, but Chicago clearly has an edge in elite jobs and clerkships and probably has an edge in almost all the markets you seem to want. If all you wanted was NYC, you should probably just pick whichever appeals to you more (and ungraded legal writing isn't nothing). But if you're seriously considering Chicago, Texas, DC, and California, you'll have an easier time from Chicago unless you're from Texas or something.

Great thanks,

If I do get in Columbia, is it worth going over Chicago at same cost?

[WheninLaw]

I am at Penn. Obviously see if you can get more from either school, but I don't know anything about negotiating.

I think it somewhat depends on where you are from/where you have ties. Penn and Chicago don't have very dissimilar outcomes generally speaking, but Chicago clearly has an edge in elite jobs and clerkships and probably has an edge in almost all the markets you seem to want. If all you wanted was NYC, you should probably just pick whichever appeals to you more (and ungraded legal writing isn't nothing). But if you're seriously considering Chicago, Texas, DC, and California, you'll have an easier time from Chicago unless you're from Texas or something.

Great thanks,

If I do get in Columbia, is it worth going over Chicago at same cost?

Hard to say when your original post lists 6 potential markets. If you want NYC, I'd take Columbia at equal cost. For anything else, I'd take UoC. My caveat is that I think the difference between the two, outcome wise, is negligent. That sort of choice to come down more to small/big school, living in nyc/chicago, etc.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I am at Penn. Obviously see if you can get more from either school, but I don't know anything about negotiating.

I think it somewhat depends on where you are from/where you have ties. Penn and Chicago don't have very dissimilar outcomes generally speaking, but Chicago clearly has an edge in elite jobs and clerkships and probably has an edge in almost all the markets you seem to want. If all you wanted was NYC, you should probably just pick whichever appeals to you more (and ungraded legal writing isn't nothing). But if you're seriously considering Chicago, Texas, DC, and California, you'll have an easier time from Chicago unless you're from Texas or something.

Great thanks,

If I do get in Columbia, is it worth going over Chicago at same cost?

Hard to say when your original post lists 6 potential markets. If you want NYC, I'd take Columbia at equal cost. For anything else, I'd take UoC. My caveat is that I think the difference between the two, outcome wise, is negligent. That sort of choice to come down more to small/big school, living in nyc/chicago, etc.

I just want work in a big market, no preference for any really. I guess I am just not really sure if Columbia and Chicago are treated the same to employers since Columbia has stronger "lay" prestige, for whatever that is worth.

[Jchance]

For Columbia vs. UChi, from what I heard, Columbia degree is well received internationally (especially in Asia, don't know about Canada tho). If you are set on any big market, UChi opens up more markets: Chi-town + you still get NYC.

Money-wise, I'd take UChi+$45K schools over Columbia at sticker. Isn't COL in Chi-town is cheaper than NYC?

[WheninLaw]

I am at Penn. Obviously see if you can get more from either school, but I don't know anything about negotiating.

I think it somewhat depends on where you are from/where you have ties. Penn and Chicago don't have very dissimilar outcomes generally speaking, but Chicago clearly has an edge in elite jobs and clerkships and probably has an edge in almost all the markets you seem to want. If all you wanted was NYC, you should probably just pick whichever appeals to you more (and ungraded legal writing isn't nothing). But if you're seriously considering Chicago, Texas, DC, and California, you'll have an easier time from Chicago unless you're from Texas or something.

Great thanks,

If I do get in Columbia, is it worth going over Chicago at same cost?

Hard to say when your original post lists 6 potential markets. If you want NYC, I'd take Columbia at equal cost. For anything else, I'd take UoC. My caveat is that I think the difference between the two, outcome wise, is negligent. That sort of choice to come down more to small/big school, living in nyc/chicago, etc.

I just want work in a big market, no preference for any really. I guess I am just not really sure if Columbia and Chicago are treated the same to employers since Columbia has stronger "lay" prestige, for whatever that is worth.

It's not worth anything (maybe in an international context? I have no clue). Chicago/Columbia are treated roughly the same, with two caveats. First, Chicago's small class size makes it more difficult for firms to get a UoC student, which is great during OCI. Second, Chicago seems to place better in the tippy-top elite firms (MTO, et al). Very possible that the latter is self-selection - I imagine most Columbia students want to stay in NY.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

For Columbia vs. UChi, from what I heard, Columbia degree is well received internationally (especially in Asia, don't know about Canada tho). If you are set on any big market, UChi opens up more markets: Chi-town + you still get NYC.

Money-wise, I'd take UChi+$45K schools over Columbia at sticker. Isn't COL in Chi-town is cheaper than NYC?

Columbia heavily subsidize their residence apparently, so COL is fairly similar.

Okay guys, thanks alot.

I will set on Chicago for now. Hopefully paradise and palm trees comes through!

[iliketurtles123]

Penn because of ungraded legal writing and you only have to suffer through finals two times per year.

Oh gosh. Is Chicago graded?

I would say Penn too. The employment outcomes are close enough to justify your choice based on these reasons.

[beepboopbeep]

Columbia heavily subsidize their residence apparently, so COL is fairly similar.

COL is nowhere close to similar. I was deciding between these two schools last year. CLS put me in a $2000/mo studio; I live in a $900/mo 1BR in Hyde Park. Even if I got one of the cheaper housing options at CLS, you're still looking at $1200-1400/mo for a much smaller place than you'd get here, plus you have to have roommates. There are people who can do NYC on the cheap, but you get a lot less for the money. On the other hand, you get to be in NYC.

As for Penn, agreed with jumpin monkey on all counts.

Somewhere down the road I would like to do some adjunct teaching.

Uhh, what?

Oh gosh. Is Chicago graded?

It's graded, but no one seems to realize it has a higher median than the rest of our classes. It definitely adds some stress but I'd say that's balanced out by only having two finals each of Fall and Winter quarter.

[WheninLaw]

Penn because of ungraded legal writing and you only have to suffer through finals two times per year.

Oh gosh. Is Chicago graded?

I would say Penn too. The employment outcomes are close enough to justify your choice based on these reasons.

Yes, it is graded. I'm not sure why people are saying Penn considering OP's wide spectrum in markets. If OP was set on NY, then sure. But Chicago/California/Texas/DC? Chicago will have a significant advantage. Especially in TX - where if OP has ties, a 1L SA there coming out of UoC is very, very easy to get.

[Big Dog]

I'm not sure why people are saying Penn considering OP's wide spectrum in markets.

NE bias.

If OP was set on NY, then sure. But Chicago/California/Texas/DC? Chicago will have a significant advantage.

Indeed.

[Nelson]

There is no difference between Penn and Chicago for DC. You're going to need good to great grades from either.

Penn will be cheaper due to lower COL (and even cheaper if can negotiate more money from Penn), but you could probably defend Chi here if you strongly prefer Chicago or California over NYC.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

I dont have any ties to any of the markets (well maybe texas, I have some family there), I just want to work in a large city/market when I graduate.

As for adjunct teaching I just mean I want to teach a class while practising, ideally anyway. I like teaching.

I guess LST COA is sort of lying then, because I was following their calculations for Columbia vs Chicago. Penn's housing is negligibly cheaper than Chicago's from my research, $100~ difference monthly at most.

[Nelson]

Penn's housing is negligibly cheaper than Chicago's from my research, $100~ difference monthly at most.

It's possible that this is true, but the modal 1L student housing arrangement at Chicago (Regents) is much pricier than the modal 1L student housing at Penn (West Philly walkups). Same thing for later years, though gap is probably narrower (modal 2L/3L student at Chicago in the South Loop, modal 2L/3L student at Penn in Center City somewhere)

[jbagelboy]

I am at Penn. Obviously see if you can get more from either school, but I don't know anything about negotiating.

I think it somewhat depends on where you are from/where you have ties. Penn and Chicago don't have very dissimilar outcomes generally speaking, but Chicago clearly has an edge in elite jobs and clerkships and probably has an edge in almost all the markets you seem to want. If all you wanted was NYC, you should probably just pick whichever appeals to you more (and ungraded legal writing isn't nothing). But if you're seriously considering Chicago, Texas, DC, and California, you'll have an easier time from Chicago unless you're from Texas or something.

Great thanks,

If I do get in Columbia, is it worth going over Chicago at same cost?

Hard to say when your original post lists 6 potential markets. If you want NYC, I'd take Columbia at equal cost. For anything else, I'd take UoC. My caveat is that I think the difference between the two, outcome wise, is negligent. That sort of choice to come down more to small/big school, living in nyc/chicago, etc.

I would take CLS for NY or CA, Chicago for DC or TX.

Columbia heavily subsidize their residence apparently, so COL is fairly similar.

COL is nowhere close to similar. I was deciding between these two schools last year. CLS put me in a $2000/mo studio; I live in a $900/mo 1BR in Hyde Park. Even if I got one of the cheaper housing options at CLS, you're still looking at $1200-1400/mo for a much smaller place than you'd get here, plus you have to have roommates. There are people who can do NYC on the cheap, but you get a lot less for the money. On the other hand, you get to be in NYC.

This just isn't true. You clearly did something wrong on your housing app, or indicated divergent preferences; the shares at CLS range b/t $950-1100/month. I haven't heard of a single share that goes up to even $1200, and for $1400, you're looking at the smaller studio's/1BDR.

It's true that CoL will be higher in NYC, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I think I found an interesting study while I was researching this

http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/oyer/wp/rankings.pdf

East-coast bias, but indicated by the authors, it looks like Chicago is looking better by the day, maybe even more so than Columbia.

[Theopliske8711]

I think I found an interesting study while I was researching this

http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/oyer/wp/rankings.pdf

East-coast bias, but indicated by the authors, it looks like Chicago is looking better by the day, maybe even more so than Columbia.

tl;dr?

[jbagelboy]

I think I found an interesting study while I was researching this

http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/oyer/wp/rankings.pdf

East-coast bias, but indicated by the authors, it looks like Chicago is looking better by the day, maybe even more so than Columbia.

Seeing as the US News and Vault survey have largely been discarded as useless, and the very ontological premise of this analysis derives from said discarded surveys, I'm sure we can safely discard it as well without missing a step. It's like the worst, not even mentioned third evil bastard child when choosing between the first two evil parents wasn't enough. Moreover it's from 2006.

[beepboopbeep]

Columbia heavily subsidize their residence apparently, so COL is fairly similar.

COL is nowhere close to similar. I was deciding between these two schools last year. CLS put me in a $2000/mo studio; I live in a $900/mo 1BR in Hyde Park. Even if I got one of the cheaper housing options at CLS, you're still looking at $1200-1400/mo for a much smaller place than you'd get here, plus you have to have roommates. There are people who can do NYC on the cheap, but you get a lot less for the money. On the other hand, you get to be in NYC.

This just isn't true. You clearly did something wrong on your housing app, or indicated divergent preferences; the shares at CLS range b/t $950-1100/month. I haven't heard of a single share that goes up to even $1200, and for $1400, you're looking at the smaller studio's/1BDR.

It's true that CoL will be higher in NYC, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I agree I may not have played the housing game especially well at CLS. I got put in a Lenfest studio and those definitely do cost >$2000. But the point stands. 1BR for $900 in Chicago (where you can get a studio for ~$700 or split an apartment for ~$500) vs 1 room in a 3BR for $950-$1100, studio for $2000, and good luck getting a 1BR without a spouse? CLS prices are better than the rest of the city, but they're still not in the same ballpark as Chicago.

the very ontological premise of this analysis derives from said discarded surveys

Christ, man.

[jbagelboy]

I agree I may not have played the housing game especially well at CLS. I got put in a Lenfest studio and those definitely do cost >$2000. But the point stands. 1BR for $900 in Chicago (where you can get a studio for ~$700 or split an apartment for ~$500) vs 1 room in a 3BR for $950-$1100, studio for $2000, and good luck getting a 1BR without a spouse? CLS prices are better than the rest of the city, but they're still not in the same ballpark as Chicago.

Without a doubt Hyde Park is cheaper. But Lenfest is the most expensive CLS housing haha

[lawschool2014hopeful]

I think I found an interesting study while I was researching this

http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/oyer/wp/rankings.pdf

East-coast bias, but indicated by the authors, it looks like Chicago is looking better by the day, maybe even more so than Columbia.

Seeing as the US News and Vault survey have largely been discarded as useless, and the very ontological premise of this analysis derives from said discarded surveys, I'm sure we can safely discard it as well without missing a step. It's like the worst, not even mentioned third evil bastard child when choosing between the first two evil parents wasn't enough. Moreover it's from 2006.

I failed to see the flaw of their methodology.

Is not like the vault survey and USNews rankings actually determined their rankings.

They simply compared their rankings against USNews and used Vault's database of law firms. They extracted 300 law firms, and compared the number of graduates from each school to the # of associates/partners from each firm. They did mention in the paper itself that it did not count like 10% of large firms or something of the sort.

If one does not believe in vault rankings you can ignore their prestige adjusted rankings, which looks like their composite ranking anyway.

The data is dated of course, but it is the best I could find, if anyone could find a similar analysis with updated data I would love to see it. Maybe I should do it myself.

[jbagelboy]

I failed to see the flaw of their methodology.

Is not like the vault survey and USNews rankings actually determined their rankings.

They simply compared their rankings against USNews and used Vault's database of law firms. They extracted 300 law firms, and compared the number of graduates from each school to the # of associates/partners from each firm. They did mention in the paper itself that it did not count like 10% of large firms or something of the sort.

If one does not believe in vault rankings you can ignore their prestige adjusted rankings, which looks like their composite ranking anyway.

The data is dated of course, but it is the best I could find, if anyone could find a similar analysis with updated data I would love to see it. Maybe I should do it myself.

Look more closely.

The US News report precisely determines their ranking, because they have ranked firms according to the average USNWR rank school starting at that firm as a first year associate. The top firms have an average of "4" - this refers to the US News survey rankings of law schools - and range up from there. They have pegged their ranking of law firms to the rankings of schools that feed into those law firms, and then compared and adjusted this ranking to the vault survey.

So, for example, say a particularly high number of Michigan (#7) grads went to work at Gibson Dunn one year, and similar bizarrely high number of Cornell (#13) grads went to Skadden. So then Skadden is less prestigious than Gibson Dunn because of the US News Survey. Also, when firms have the same average USNWR entry rank, they are divided up by an even smaller margin of US News survey ranked schools. Then, this ranking - entirely derivative of USNWR - is transposed back onto the law schools to determine their ranking.

tl;dr is that for it's class size, there are a lot of partners from UChicago. I think Brian Leiter produced similar figures a few years ago.