Yet Another CCN Topic

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Numbers in parentheses are COA and total debt

NYU (220K--60K loans)
11
13%
Chicago (181K--20K loans)
54
66%
Columbia (236-251K--70-80K loans)
17
21%
 
Total votes: 82

Kimikho

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Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Kimikho » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:22 pm

PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE.

Schools considering: CCN (waitlisted at HY, possibly S)

Cost of Attendance: I haven’t gotten financial aid from Columbia yet. Numbers in parentheses are scholarships, total loans taken out in brackets, numbers from LS22's excel sheet.
NYU: $222,390 ($62.5K) [$59,854]
Chicago: $181,026 ($75K) [$20,186]
Columbia: $251,943 (if $45K) [$86,845]
$236,317 (if $60K) [$72,154]
HYS off waitlist: $300K (sticker) [~$140K]

Financing: Left over college savings in a 529, personal savings, loans. Relatives have suggested they will step in for HYS, but I don't want to ask for that, they don't really have that money.

Working and Ties: Significant and very strong ties to the insular secondary market I want to work in. Weak ties to Los Angeles and Chicago. I'd like to work in the mentioned secondary market for a large law firm ("large" is relative here), but if I could I have been considering gender and sexuality law/advocacy. Academia is a pipe dream that I'm going to pursue as long as it isn't detrimental to my more realistic goals. Columbia and Chicago place about equally in the secondary market, NYU a little less.

Numbers: 173 (taken once), 3.8X. GPA has dropped slightly and may be below 3.8 after graduation. KJD.

Other Considerations: I have a family friend who is a professor at NYULS and has done some work related to my interests.

I know that Chicago appears to be the clearest option here, but Chicago also doesn’t have a clinic for gender and sexuality advocacy, and if I don't do BigLaw then that is what I would want to do. Finally, I don’t know if I want to be at a school that small.

NYU was (sadly) my least favorite school I visited. I’m not a fan of NYU being that urban, and I pretty much don’t have time to negotiate my offer higher and I doubt they would. NYU also won't let me defer my scholarship a year, and I have been seriously considering deferring. However, my SO will be at NYU this fall.

I’m heavily leaning Columbia right now due to their clinics and professors and how much I enjoyed the school. Am I undervaluing the connection at NYU/money aspect here?

If people say NYU, I need to deposit by Monday, which would be before I have my Columbia offer most likely. I requested an extension and it was denied :(

AGAIN: PLEASE DON’T QUOTE

Also, I know a lot of people know where I live. Please don't put it in the thread :)

Thank you!!!!
Last edited by Kimikho on Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

nebula666

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby nebula666 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:30 pm

Chicago for $20k is a pretty incredible but I think you should go where you are happiest.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:37 pm

Why would conservatism in Chicago's philosophy program matter for a JD? If you want to take some philosophy courses, I doubt it will matter. If you actually want to do a PhD in philosophy, you should make the qualities of the philosophy program the priority (because humanities PhD programs are much less fungible than JD programs, IMHO). If you're thinking about an MA in philosophy, I can't imagine that being at all helpful for anything.

I don't think disagreeing with your mentor's approach would matter for 95% of non-academic law jobs. Even for academic jobs, you don't get a JD under a particular person in the way you do a PhD, so it still probably wouldn't matter, unless you relied heavily on that person to make academic connections for you/write you an academic recommendation, which might entail actually doing academic work with her (academic work = writing published articles, not just taking courses).

I really don't think any match between your academic interests and the school should be a big consideration. JD programs are generalist programs, and you can make an academic specialty out of basically any of the top schools (should you choose to go down that route).

tl;dr - you sound like you're evaluating JD programs as if they were PhD programs and they're really really different.

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Attax

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Attax » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:37 pm

I voted for Chicago, because it is a great school at an inexpensive price. However, it may not fit all of your goals as desired. I think that, should you want to pursue some other goals after, 20k in debt would make it feasible to later pursue a PhD program as you seem to have indicated without a huge limitation.

Considering post edit info: However, I think NYU would also provide a fairly minimal amount of debt. I think all are great choices, and considering that your SO will be there I think that 60k isn't too much risk to allow for you to add the emotional factor in. While I typically think you shouldn't consider the emotional/lovey dovey stuff, I think that at the premium of only a total of 60k it definitely could be very much worth it, so I'd change my vote probably to NYU.
Last edited by Attax on Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AntipodeanPhil

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:40 pm

A family connection to a professor isn't going to be much help to you at law school.

Part of your post, which I'm not going to quote, seems to suggest that you might be interested in graduate school at the same time as law school. If so, that makes a big difference.

Do you have any sense of whether Columbia or Chicago places better in the secondary market you plan to work in? For example, is it in the Midwest or the Northeast? Also, do you plan to work in NYC or another big city before returning to your home market?

I'd probably go with Chicago, simply because I don't think you've said enough here to justify the difference in price.
Last edited by AntipodeanPhil on Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mal Reynolds

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:43 pm

Chicago isn't conservative. And who in their right mind would make a decision like this based on a dumb factor like that?

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:45 pm

Yea, if your goal is to work at a firm, Chicago is the obvious choice here. If your goal is to get a PhD and go into non-legal academia, there's no way TLS can help you. By all accounts, Chicago's conservatism is an economic one, and over-reported at that. You should not expect the student body to be very different at any of these three schools.

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Kimikho » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:48 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:A family connection to a professor isn't going to be much help to you at law school.

Part of your post, which I'm not going to quote, seems to suggest that you might be interested in graduate school at the same time as law school. Is that the case?

Do you have any sense of whether Columbia or Chicago places better in the secondary market you plan to work in? For example, is it in the Midwest or the Northeast? Also, do you plan to work in NYC or another big city before returning to your home market?

I'd probably go with Chicago, simply because I don't think you've said enough here to justify the difference in price.


I have another year to decide if I want to do a joint degree, but one plus for Chicago is that I'd have a better option of returning to school (as Attax noted).

Chicago places slightly better in the secondary market in percentage of graduates, but both Columbia and Chicago do extremely well. I'm open to working in NYC before returning home.

You'd still go with Chicago even though it lacks the clinics/secondary journals that I'm interested in? I know you can create being interested in something, but the fact that it completely lacks both of those concerns me.

I focused on the PhD-y things because a lot of the other things were more personal and things that students couldn't comment. A. Nony's point was good, though, and I'll stop focusing as much on it as I have been (and I've taken that stuff out to shorten it up).

Sorry if I didn't say enough :(. I cut a lot of stuff out I thought it was too long.

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midwest17

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby midwest17 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:57 pm

What sort of clinic are you looking for? The gendered violence clinic seems at least somewhat related: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/clinics/genderedviolence

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AntipodeanPhil

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:01 pm

If you are seriously thinking about a philosophy PhD, that puts NYU back in the picture -- especially if getting into the JD program would help with PhD admissions. NYU has an amazing philosophy program, as I'm sure you know. With an NYU philosophy PhD & JD you would have a very good chance at academia. Chicago's philosophy program is a little unusual, and has gone through some difficulties over the last decade or two -- although maybe they're sorting that out.

If you're not seriously thinking about a PhD, I don't think Chicago's lack of clinics/secondary journals that interest you justifies paying $40-$60k more.

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2014

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby 2014 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:02 pm

This isn't a real dilemma, nothing to see here

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:03 pm

Secondary journals as some kind of boost to a particular practice area/academic interest is complete flame. They're not like specialty journals in the humanities/social sciences - it doesn't matter in the slightest what journal you're on. You want to be on law review if you can, and if you're on law review you can write your note about anything you like, which is sufficient to show interest/expertise in a particular academic field. If you don't make law review and you want to do a secondary journal, something close to your interests is good just because if you have to write a note, you can write something on your interests, but most of the time you should be able to bludgeon some kind of specific topic into your area of interest. (e.g. you're interested in gender/sexuality advocacy but end up on the criminal law journal, write a note about transgender prisoners).

I also don't think clinics in your area of interest are that big a deal. If they're there, it's nice, but it would be better to get off campus and work for an actual legal employer in that area of interest anyway. So doing an internship with an actual gender/sexuality advocacy group would be more valuable than doing a school's gender and sexuality clinic. And if you want to do litigation in that area, you could do a criminal defense clinic and get transferable skills anyway.

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Jessasaurus

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Jessasaurus » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:05 pm

2014 wrote:This isn't a real dilemma, nothing to see here


Don't be a dick.

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Jessasaurus

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Jessasaurus » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:05 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:Chicago isn't conservative. And who in their right mind would make a decision like this based on a dumb factor like that?


Also don't be a dick.

Kimikho

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Kimikho » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:09 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Secondary journals as some kind of boost to a particular practice area/academic interest is complete flame. They're not like specialty journals in the humanities/social sciences - it doesn't matter in the slightest what journal you're on. You want to be on law review if you can, and if you're on law review you can write your note about anything you like, which is sufficient to show interest/expertise in a particular academic field. If you don't make law review and you want to do a secondary journal, something close to your interests is good just because if you have to write a note, you can write something on your interests, but most of the time you should be able to bludgeon some kind of specific topic into your area of interest. (e.g. you're interested in gender/sexuality advocacy but end up on the criminal law journal, write a note about transgender prisoners).

I also don't think clinics in your area of interest are that big a deal. If they're there, it's nice, but it would be better to get off campus and work for an actual legal employer in that area of interest anyway. So doing an internship with an actual gender/sexuality advocacy group would be more valuable than doing a school's gender and sexuality clinic. And if you want to do litigation in that area, you could do a criminal defense clinic and get transferable skills anyway.


Thank you for being so helpful :)

At what point would people say it's a wash, regarding money? I know that this situation isn't, but I haven't negotiated with Columbia.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:12 pm

Good luck deciding! (Hope I didn't sound cranky.) You have amazing options and if you really think you'll personally be much happier at Columbia, it's not a horrific amount of debt to manage. (I'd probably go with Chicago for less debt, but never having been in your position, that's just a guess.)

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Kimikho » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:14 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Good luck deciding! (Hope I didn't sound cranky.) You have amazing options and if you really think you'll personally be much happier at Columbia, it's not a horrific amount of debt to manage. (I'd probably go with Chicago for less debt, but never having been in your position, that's just a guess.)


Thanks! You weren't grumpy at all, just very helpful :).

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dwil770

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby dwil770 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:21 pm

Attax wrote:I voted for Chicago, because it is a great school at an inexpensive price. However, it may not fit all of your goals as desired. I think that, should you want to pursue some other goals after, 20k in debt would make it feasible to later pursue a PhD program as you seem to have indicated without a huge limitation.

Considering post edit info: However, I think NYU would also provide a fairly minimal amount of debt. I think all are great choices, and considering that your SO will be there I think that 60k isn't too much risk to allow for you to add the emotional factor in. While I typically think you shouldn't consider the emotional/lovey dovey stuff, I think that at the premium of only a total of 60k it definitely could be very much worth it, so I'd change my vote probably to NYU.


A true romantic. This is my favorite advice ITT

WheninLaw

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby WheninLaw » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:28 pm

Jessasaurus wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Chicago isn't conservative. And who in their right mind would make a decision like this based on a dumb factor like that?


Also don't be a dick.


How is this being a dick? It's a stupid factor.

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AntipodeanPhil

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:35 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
Jessasaurus wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Chicago isn't conservative. And who in their right mind would make a decision like this based on a dumb factor like that?

Also don't be a dick.

How is this being a dick? It's a stupid factor.

Yeah, the only person being a dick in this thread is the one calling other posters "dicks."

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:57 pm

If you want Columbia, just go to Columbia, as long as they give you comparable aid to NYU - it's a steal at $80K debt. You're in a fortunate position to have so much cash on hand for this.

I'm sorry I haven't responded to your PM in depth yet, it's finals time but Ill get around to it tonight. Suzanne Goldberg is a gem though and would be a perfect mentor for your interests. She was my Civ Pro prof and it was my best class first semester.

You may be pleasantly surprised by your CLS grant. And if your relationship means anything to you then it's easily worth staying nearby.

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Jessasaurus

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Jessasaurus » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:16 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
Jessasaurus wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Chicago isn't conservative. And who in their right mind would make a decision like this based on a dumb factor like that?


Also don't be a dick.


How is this being a dick? It's a stupid factor.


Because if she is considering it as a factor calling it stupid is just plain unhelpful and not nice

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FuriousDuck

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby FuriousDuck » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:16 pm

...
Last edited by FuriousDuck on Tue May 13, 2014 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pulsar

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby Pulsar » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:17 pm

jbagelboy wrote:If you want Columbia, just go to Columbia, as long as they give you comparable aid to NYU - it's a steal at $80K debt. You're in a fortunate position to have so much cash on hand for this.

I'm sorry I haven't responded to your PM in depth yet, it's finals time but Ill get around to it tonight. Suzanne Goldberg is a gem though and would be a perfect mentor for your interests. She was my Civ Pro prof and it was my best class first semester.

You may be pleasantly surprised by your CLS grant. And if your relationship means anything to you then it's easily worth staying nearby.


Yes, the fact that OP has the ability to drop $200k cash on this obviously makes a $300k degree a steal.

FFS.

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jbagelboy

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Re: Yet Another CCN Topic

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:24 pm

Pulsar wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:If you want Columbia, just go to Columbia, as long as they give you comparable aid to NYU - it's a steal at $80K debt. You're in a fortunate position to have so much cash on hand for this.

I'm sorry I haven't responded to your PM in depth yet, it's finals time but Ill get around to it tonight. Suzanne Goldberg is a gem though and would be a perfect mentor for your interests. She was my Civ Pro prof and it was my best class first semester.

You may be pleasantly surprised by your CLS grant. And if your relationship means anything to you then it's easily worth staying nearby.


Yes, the fact that OP has the ability to drop $200k cash on this obviously makes a $300k degree a steal.

FFS.


Yea, I mean, I said that. I pointed out OP was in a fortunate position. It's still a remarkably good outcome. In fact, better than mine when I was choosing between law schools ceteris paribus - before I knew I could count on the summers of SA earnings, I was looking at $140,000 debt at graduation; and yea if my parents could have helped me/could help me now it would be a lot less, but it is what it is. Remind me, what was the point of your post.



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