YLS v Butler v UVA

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which one?

Yale (COA: $245,000)
73
77%
Columbia (COA: $188,000)
3
3%
UVA (COA: $116,000)
19
20%
 
Total votes: 95

kaiser

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby kaiser » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:46 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:I realize you are currently attending Harvard and really want this to be true, but for the vast majority it is not. V10 is only a "thing" in very specific circles and only gives you an edge in very specific types of law. Practicing attorneys know what is prestigious within their own fields, and to the degree they care about prestige, they use those yardsticks. The number of jobs where a UVA/V50 grad will be screened out and a Harvard V10 will sail through is extremely small and unlikely to be worth the debt.

Of course your exit options are going to largely depend on the practice area you join and the specific work you end up doing, and V50 firms have some practice areas that are as good or better than the same practice areas at V10 firms. But V10 firms obviously have more top practice areas, and better work overall. And maybe this guy will want a career in one of the "specific circles" in which simply have been at a V10 counts.

Sure, you can make this personal and attack me for having conflicted motivations, but -- given the tone of your response -- that sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

kaiser wrote:The overwhelming consensus from grads is that, if biglaw is your goal, CCN, or a lower T10 with big scholarship is FAR superior to HYS at sticker (though of course there are circumstances outside the biglaw context where HYS will be the right choice, even if the cost is far greater than other options)

Sure, the overwhelming consensus amongst grads who got the biglaw jobs they wanted.

I don't know a single person at my HYS that wanted biglaw and didn't get it, and I know a lot of people. Everyone I know who wanted NYC biglaw ended up at a V15.


And I can say the same about all the people I know at my CCN school (though I'd say V25, instead of V15, since it was a bit more spread around, though of course, lots of people at the very top tier of firms). Of course, its about marginal benefit vs. marginal cost. The problem is that many 0L's overstate the marginal benefit (which they have to estimate) vs. the sometimes substantial cost difference. This is particularly true in the biglaw context for many reasons:

1. Schools like Columbia and NYU will give you the same access to the same elite firms, and largely place into them at a similar rate. Not to say the rate is identical, but its not like they are worlds apart in this respect.

2. Biglaw firms are not like schools as far as "prestige" or trajectory. If you do amazing work at a V30 or V40, you can lateral into a top tier firm, or any number of other positions based on long term goals. The very same would be said for someone who does great work at a V15. At that point, the school you went to is far less important.

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jbagelboy

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:54 pm

1) both of your anecdata notwithstanding, people strike out at both Harvard and NYU. We know this from data, from other TLS posters, and from peers and colleagues (even if your particular friend groups didn't have anyone in that unfortunate position). So it's silly to trade stories at a certain point.

2) Harvard doesn't demonstrably provide any advantage in V10 placement over CLS, and to an ever marginal extent NYU, when we compare summer class sizes at HCN and match them to school population size. But it does provide an advantage over UVa for those firms, which is the point of discussion.

3) V15 is dumb since each year firms move in and out of such a category. Not sure why anyone would use it. Re: V10, I'm sure the unemployed former Latham associate H grads were thrilled with their post-V10 layoff exit options.

4) This is silly since Yale is not Harvard and we all agree the Butler isn't worth it here.

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cotiger

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby cotiger » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:09 pm

kaiser wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Also, this person wants biglaw. One point I think people often underestimate is that you have a much better chance of getting a top firm from HYS (especially Y&S). The exit options really are significantly better at a V10 with a degree from HYS, vs. being at a V50 with a degree from UVA (and yes, of course you can get a V10 from UVA, it's just less likely).


When I was a 0L/student, I may have also thought this was true. But now that I am a grad, I can tell you that it isn't. HYS may tell you this in order to get you to attend, or you may convince yourself of this in order to justify the debt, but in reality, you are overstating something that isn't quite so monumental in practice. Of course, I don't blame you for thinking this, and I likely would have agreed with you while I was a 0L/student.


Where's the evidence? As little as we 0Ls know about entry-level hiring, it's light years ahead of what we know about the next phase. I agree with kaiser that this sounds like yet more vague, unsubstantiated BS that often gets spouted as "everyone knows" fact from 0Ls and current students who deep down just want to tell others that they go to YHS but can't admit that motivation to themselves.

Also, what's up with the V# fetish? V5 vs V15 vs V50 vs oh noes! What if I don't choose the "right" "prestigious" firm? Will everything be ruined? Christ, give ranking everything a rest for a minute.

TooOld4This

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby TooOld4This » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:11 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
Sure, you can make this personal and attack me for having conflicted motivations, but -- given the tone of your response -- that sounds like the pot calling the kettle.


I'm not trying to make this a personal attack. But I do think it is important for the OP to realize when current law students are making emphatic statements about exit options and ease of paying off debt when they have never experienced either.

You are right. I have biases. Mine are informed by experience in exiting from BigLaw, being involved in hiring for BigLaw and non-BigLaw, and having been saddled with substantial law school debt.

OP may desire the narrow wedge of jobs that Yale opens up. And OP may value this potential to the tune of around an extra $150,000 plus interest. That is great. But that decision should be made by really thinking about strength of desire to get a certain outcome, the marginal advantage Yale provides in obtaining that advantage, and weighing it against the additional debt. OMG V10 doesn't help that analysis.

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AntipodeanPhil

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:33 pm

cotiger wrote:
kaiser wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Also, this person wants biglaw. One point I think people often underestimate is that you have a much better chance of getting a top firm from HYS (especially Y&S). The exit options really are significantly better at a V10 with a degree from HYS, vs. being at a V50 with a degree from UVA (and yes, of course you can get a V10 from UVA, it's just less likely).


When I was a 0L/student, I may have also thought this was true. But now that I am a grad, I can tell you that it isn't. HYS may tell you this in order to get you to attend, or you may convince yourself of this in order to justify the debt, but in reality, you are overstating something that isn't quite so monumental in practice. Of course, I don't blame you for thinking this, and I likely would have agreed with you while I was a 0L/student.


Where's the evidence? As little as we 0Ls know about entry-level hiring, it's light years ahead of what we know about the next phase. I agree with kaiser that this sounds like yet more vague, unsubstantiated BS that often gets spouted as "everyone knows" fact from 0Ls and current students who deep down just want to tell others that they go to YHS but can't admit that motivation to themselves.

Alright, to get some evidence that is at least a little better than anecdotal, I just went through the last OCI data my school made available to students, for the 2012 OCI program. Of the 69 students who accepted positions at New York firms, 63 accepted positions at V15 firms. Of the six who didn't, I know two personally. One chose his firm because it excels in a particular practice area he's interested in. The other chose her firm for other very particular reasons, but had offers from a number of top firms.

Of course, these rankings are kind of stupid -- as TooOld4This points out. But they very crudely approximate some useful information. You might be a 0L, but you're going to be caring about exit options in a few years.

EDIT: did the count more carefully, because I realized I missed some data. Counting split summers as 0.5, 72.5 students at my school were SAs in NY, and 62 were at V15 firms. Obviously, there are many good reasons to pick firms outside the V15, especially if you have specific goals.
Last edited by AntipodeanPhil on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AntipodeanPhil

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:45 pm

TooOld4This wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:
Sure, you can make this personal and attack me for having conflicted motivations, but -- given the tone of your response -- that sounds like the pot calling the kettle.

I'm not trying to make this a personal attack. But I do think it is important for the OP to realize when current law students are making emphatic statements about exit options and ease of paying off debt when they have never experienced either.

You are right. I have biases. Mine are informed by experience in exiting from BigLaw, being involved in hiring for BigLaw and non-BigLaw, and having been saddled with substantial law school debt.

OP may desire the narrow wedge of jobs that Yale opens up. And OP may value this potential to the tune of around an extra $150,000 plus interest. That is great. But that decision should be made by really thinking about strength of desire to get a certain outcome, the marginal advantage Yale provides in obtaining that advantage, and weighing it against the additional debt. OMG V10 doesn't help that analysis.

I agree with all of this, and accept that I'm guilty of some "OMG V10"-ing in this thread.

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ph14

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby ph14 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:46 pm

Keep in mind, too, that the V10 have the largest summer classes and that sometimes they aren't even the most selective firms (e.g., boutiques).

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cotiger

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Re: YLS v Butler v UVA

Postby cotiger » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:50 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
cotiger wrote:
kaiser wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Also, this person wants biglaw. One point I think people often underestimate is that you have a much better chance of getting a top firm from HYS (especially Y&S). The exit options really are significantly better at a V10 with a degree from HYS, vs. being at a V50 with a degree from UVA (and yes, of course you can get a V10 from UVA, it's just less likely).


When I was a 0L/student, I may have also thought this was true. But now that I am a grad, I can tell you that it isn't. HYS may tell you this in order to get you to attend, or you may convince yourself of this in order to justify the debt, but in reality, you are overstating something that isn't quite so monumental in practice. Of course, I don't blame you for thinking this, and I likely would have agreed with you while I was a 0L/student.


Where's the evidence? As little as we 0Ls know about entry-level hiring, it's light years ahead of what we know about the next phase. I agree with kaiser that this sounds like yet more vague, unsubstantiated BS that often gets spouted as "everyone knows" fact from 0Ls and current students who deep down just want to tell others that they go to YHS but can't admit that motivation to themselves.

Alright, to get some evidence that is at least a little better than anecdotal, I just went through the last OCI data my school made available to students, for the 2012 OCI program. Of the 69 students who accepted positions at New York firms, 63 accepted positions at V15 firms. Of the six who didn't, I know two personally. One chose his firm because it excels in a particular practice area he's interested in. The other chose her firm for other very particular reasons, but had offers from a number of top firms.

Of course, these rankings are kind of stupid -- as TooOld4This points out. But they very crudely approximate some useful information. You might be a 0L, but you're going to be caring about exit options in a few years.


Oh I have no doubt that YHS (and CCN) place more strongly into the V-whatever NYC firms.

What I'm less sold on is that your exit options are going to be significantly different after spending 2-3 years as a junior associate at #7 vs #27.



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