Michigan vs USC

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

which school

Michigan
26
65%
USC
14
35%
 
Total votes: 40

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logical seasoning

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby logical seasoning » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:36 pm

Thanks for the responses everyone. I realize that a large sum of govt hiring is done through recruiting lawyers with a few years of experience, and I have no qualms with working in big law for a couple of years. The little questionnaire thingy asked for my career goals and for me, prestigious govt is a goal with big law being a means to an end.

I do know for a fact that prestigious govt out of Michigan is possible, as I know a couple 3Ls who have jobs with the DOJ and SEC lined up.

Anyways, after I posted this thread, I was thinking Michigan for sure. However, last night the dean at USC called me and said that I was 1 out of 10 chosen for a full tuition scholarship, guaranteeing at least 165k for the next 3 years.

After crunching some numbers, I put the differential at ~80k. Attending Michigan vs USC would cost me 80k. Is this worth it?

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twenty

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby twenty » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:04 pm

logical seasoning wrote:After crunching some numbers, I put the differential at ~80k. Attending Michigan vs USC would cost me 80k. Is this worth it?


As someone who voted for USC before, I maintain/strengthen that vote.

jk148706

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby jk148706 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:12 pm

logical seasoning wrote:Thanks for the responses everyone. I realize that a large sum of govt hiring is done through recruiting lawyers with a few years of experience, and I have no qualms with working in big law for a couple of years. The little questionnaire thingy asked for my career goals and for me, prestigious govt is a goal with big law being a means to an end.

I do know for a fact that prestigious govt out of Michigan is possible, as I know a couple 3Ls who have jobs with the DOJ and SEC lined up.

Anyways, after I posted this thread, I was thinking Michigan for sure. However, last night the dean at USC called me and said that I was 1 out of 10 chosen for a full tuition scholarship, guaranteeing at least 165k for the next 3 years.

After crunching some numbers, I put the differential at ~80k. Attending Michigan vs USC would cost me 80k. Is this worth it?


Wait if Michigan is offering $60k and USC is offering $165k, how is the difference $80k?


Eta:

Oh bc of this, I assume:

logical seasoning wrote:Fiancee would be coming with be to Michigan so I would be able to split a great amount of living expenses. Circumstances prevent her from living in LA



Hard to turn down a full ride to USC if u want to be in Cali, no?

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logical seasoning

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby logical seasoning » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:21 pm

jk148706 wrote:
Hard to turn down a full ride to USC if u want to be in Cali, no?

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Power_of_Facing

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby Power_of_Facing » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:26 pm

logical seasoning wrote:
jk148706 wrote:
Hard to turn down a full ride to USC if u want to be in Cali, no?


You're Goulden.

But given your goals, make sure to gun like the wind -- in as friendly a manner as you can muster!

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby Nomo » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:46 pm

logical seasoning wrote:I do know for a fact that prestigious govt out of Michigan is possible, as I know a couple 3Ls who have jobs with the DOJ and SEC lined up.


Possible, sure. Its also possible out of USC. But, your talking about a school with a class of what, 370. And how many got DOJ or SEC (getting into the 2-year DOJ honors program for EOIR doesn't count)? You should know this, they list the employment of every graduate online.

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logical seasoning

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby logical seasoning » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:20 pm

Nomo wrote:
logical seasoning wrote:I do know for a fact that prestigious govt out of Michigan is possible, as I know a couple 3Ls who have jobs with the DOJ and SEC lined up.


Possible, sure. Its also possible out of USC. But, your talking about a school with a class of what, 370. And how many got DOJ or SEC (getting into the 2-year DOJ honors program for EOIR doesn't count)? You should know this, they list the employment of every graduate online.

Come back with a realistic career goal (and two backup plans) and I'll tell you which option I think better serves your career ambitions. With your current career goal I recommend not attending law school



Why are you patronizing me?

Yes not many go to DOJ or SEC after graduation, but that could be due to a number of factors. Maybe the 50k starting salary doesnt appeal to most folks and the majority go for big law over govt? Maybe people dont like the geographic limits that Govt places on people? Maybe people dont find Gov work interesting?

You assume that people not going in to govt positions = close to impossible to get.

Of course it isnt easy to go prestigious govt right out of law school, but is it naive/foolish to set it as a goal? I dont think so.

Ps. I would be stoked to get DOJ honors after graduation lol

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twenty

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby twenty » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:43 pm

At the point where DISTRICT ATTORNEY offices hire 10-20 people out of 1100+ applications for a 1% to 2% selection rate, the JAG, which has far more stringent medical and physical requirements, has a 5%-7% selection rate, and FDIC's is roughly 8% for its honors program, what makes you think that the single-most prestigious entry level legal position in government, the DOJ, is going to go "OH, WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU, THANK GOD, WE THOUGHT NO ONE WOULD APPLY."

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby logical seasoning » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:04 pm

twenty wrote:At the point where DISTRICT ATTORNEY offices hire 10-20 people out of 1100+ applications for a 1% to 2% selection rate, the JAG, which has far more stringent medical and physical requirements, has a 5%-7% selection rate, and FDIC's is roughly 8% for its honors program, what makes you think that the single-most prestigious entry level legal position in government, the DOJ, is going to go "OH, WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU, THANK GOD, WE THOUGHT NO ONE WOULD APPLY."



Oh yeah that is totally what I was thinking. Spot on man.

Like I have said. I have no qualms about going into big law first and then transferring into govt later on. GOVT is my career goal is that a problem to you folks?

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twenty

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby twenty » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:13 pm

logical seasoning wrote:
twenty wrote:At the point where DISTRICT ATTORNEY offices hire 10-20 people out of 1100+ applications for a 1% to 2% selection rate, the JAG, which has far more stringent medical and physical requirements, has a 5%-7% selection rate, and FDIC's is roughly 8% for its honors program, what makes you think that the single-most prestigious entry level legal position in government, the DOJ, is going to go "OH, WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU, THANK GOD, WE THOUGHT NO ONE WOULD APPLY."



Oh yeah that is totally what I was thinking. Spot on man.

Like I have said. I have no qualms about going into big law first and then transferring into govt later on. GOVT is my career goal is that a problem to you folks?


YES. WHEN A SINGLE AUSA SPOT GETS FOUR THOUSAND APPLICATIONS.

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twenty

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby twenty » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:19 pm

.
Last edited by twenty on Mon May 05, 2014 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby zman » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:22 pm

It seems like you would need to go to yale to get what you are looking for. Take the full ride and work in a big firm in LA and go from there..

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby xJD2017x » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:56 pm

USC full ride vs Michigan is a fine choice but one must assume you are on the waitlist at other better t-14 schools(Mich is one of the weaker ones) so therefore your cycle isn't over. Hopefully someone else gets the full ride if you bail.

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby Nomo » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:19 pm

logical seasoning wrote:
Nomo wrote:
logical seasoning wrote:I do know for a fact that prestigious govt out of Michigan is possible, as I know a couple 3Ls who have jobs with the DOJ and SEC lined up.


Possible, sure. Its also possible out of USC. But, your talking about a school with a class of what, 370. And how many got DOJ or SEC (getting into the 2-year DOJ honors program for EOIR doesn't count)? You should know this, they list the employment of every graduate online.

Come back with a realistic career goal (and two backup plans) and I'll tell you which option I think better serves your career ambitions. With your current career goal I recommend not attending law school



Why are you patronizing me?

Yes not many go to DOJ or SEC after graduation, but that could be due to a number of factors. Maybe the 50k starting salary doesnt appeal to most folks and the majority go for big law over govt? Maybe people dont like the geographic limits that Govt places on people? Maybe people dont find Gov work interesting?

You assume that people not going in to govt positions = close to impossible to get.

Of course it isnt easy to go prestigious govt right out of law school, but is it naive/foolish to set it as a goal? I dont think so.

Ps. I would be stoked to get DOJ honors after graduation lol


I apologize. I did not intend to be patronizing. That's not the tone I intended to convey. The reason I want to know your other career goals is that I think your second, third, fourth, and fifth choice jobs are important considerations in picking a school. I'm not knocking you for shooting for DOJ, that's great. But, your decision should take into account a multitude of backup plans. I don't feel capable of giving advice without knowing those backup plans and their order of priority.

I graduated from Michigan in 2012. I can tell you that tons of people applied to DOJ; and that only a few people got it. Those people were very accomplished in terms of grades, moot court success, journals, etc. Far more people in the top 25% with law review were rejected than were accepted, it wasn't even close. Its vastly easier to get Cravath or Davis and Polk than DOJ honors. DOJ honors is probably about as hard to get as a court of appeals clerkship.

Also, DOJ EOIR honors is a bit different than the rest of DOJ honors. First, tons of them are hired. Second, DOJ EOIR honors doesn't lead to a full-time DOJ job after the honors program ends. Still a great job and very competitive. The people I know who got it were good students, fluent in at least one other language, and leaders in journals and other activities. Check this out: http://www.justice.gov/careers/legal/en ... pants.html. I count 28 slots, plus 77 for EOIR.

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby logical seasoning » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:48 pm

Nomo wrote:
logical seasoning wrote:
Nomo wrote:
logical seasoning wrote:I do know for a fact that prestigious govt out of Michigan is possible, as I know a couple 3Ls who have jobs with the DOJ and SEC lined up.


Possible, sure. Its also possible out of USC. But, your talking about a school with a class of what, 370. And how many got DOJ or SEC (getting into the 2-year DOJ honors program for EOIR doesn't count)? You should know this, they list the employment of every graduate online.

Come back with a realistic career goal (and two backup plans) and I'll tell you which option I think better serves your career ambitions. With your current career goal I recommend not attending law school



Why are you patronizing me?

Yes not many go to DOJ or SEC after graduation, but that could be due to a number of factors. Maybe the 50k starting salary doesnt appeal to most folks and the majority go for big law over govt? Maybe people dont like the geographic limits that Govt places on people? Maybe people dont find Gov work interesting?

You assume that people not going in to govt positions = close to impossible to get.

Of course it isnt easy to go prestigious govt right out of law school, but is it naive/foolish to set it as a goal? I dont think so.

Ps. I would be stoked to get DOJ honors after graduation lol


I apologize. I did not intend to be patronizing. That's not the tone I intended to convey. The reason I want to know your other career goals is that I think your second, third, fourth, and fifth choice jobs are important considerations in picking a school. I'm not knocking you for shooting for DOJ, that's great. But, your decision should take into account a multitude of backup plans. I don't feel capable of giving advice without knowing those backup plans and their order of priority.

I graduated from Michigan in 2012. I can tell you that tons of people applied to DOJ; and that only a few people got it. Those people were very accomplished in terms of grades, moot court success, journals, etc. Far more people in the top 25% with law review were rejected than were accepted, it wasn't even close. Its vastly easier to get Cravath or Davis and Polk than DOJ honors. DOJ honors is probably about as hard to get as a court of appeals clerkship.

Also, DOJ EOIR honors is a bit different than the rest of DOJ honors. First, tons of them are hired. Second, DOJ EOIR honors doesn't lead to a full-time DOJ job after the honors program ends. Still a great job and very competitive. The people I know who got it were good students, fluent in at least one other language, and leaders in journals and other activities. Check this out: http://www.justice.gov/careers/legal/en ... pants.html. I count 28 slots, plus 77 for EOIR.


Thanks for your reply. Some great information in there. One thing this thread has thoroughly established was that getting prestigious govt is no easy task. I agree, I would be a fool to go to law school if it was prestigious gov or bust.

my post grad plans in order of priority are

1. Prestigious govt/ clerkship
2. Big law
3. other type of firm law
4. Public interest/ NGO

You would actually be someone that I could greatly benefit from talking to, since you went clerk--> govt.

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logical seasoning

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby logical seasoning » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:50 pm

xJD2017x wrote:USC full ride vs Michigan is a fine choice but one must assume you are on the waitlist at other better t-14 schools(Mich is one of the weaker ones) so therefore your cycle isn't over. Hopefully someone else gets the full ride if you bail.


From what I understand, if I get in off of my waitlist schools, I would most likely be going there at sticker.... correct?

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby lecsa » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:52 pm

logical seasoning wrote:
xJD2017x wrote:USC full ride vs Michigan is a fine choice but one must assume you are on the waitlist at other better t-14 schools(Mich is one of the weaker ones) so therefore your cycle isn't over. Hopefully someone else gets the full ride if you bail.


From what I understand, if I get in off of my waitlist schools, I would most likely be going there at sticker.... correct?


You're correct. Paying sticker for any school is dumb.

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby Nomo » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:57 pm

logical seasoning wrote:Thanks for your reply. Some great information in there. One thing this thread has thoroughly established was that getting prestigious govt is no easy task. I agree, I would be a fool to go to law school if it was prestigious gov or bust.

my post grad plans in order of priority are

1. Prestigious govt/ clerkship
2. Big law
3. other type of firm law
4. Public interest/ NGO

You would actually be someone that I could greatly benefit from talking to, since you went clerk--> govt.


Given those goals I would go to Michigan. But, if you told me the preference for biglaw over small law is minor then I would call it a toss up.

Feel free to PM me. But, I went state clerkship to state gov. This doesn't appear to match your interests.

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby EJL123 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:59 pm

IMHO, with your career goals, go Michigan.

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Re: Michigan vs USC

Postby CTT » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:26 am

You should divorce my comments that you'll be fine at Michigan from the attempts of others to imply that I said government work was easy to get. The reality is it depends on what your work history and grades. But, provided you don't bomb law school and you are willing to put in a few years afterwards in clerking/big law grinding, working for the federal agency of your choice is not something that requires going to Yale.

I think Michigan is likely to give you better options than USC, and you may end up having loan balances forgiven, but it's a tough call.



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