The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby 84651846190 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:02 am

daryldixon wrote:This is the worst thread ever. It is pointless to try to argue with fools. We have two types of people in this thread. Those that have gone to law school, taken out debt, and experienced the job market for themselves and those who have not. Honestly, unless you go through it yourself you are never going to believe everyone else. So I say go. Get into debt and let the job market and the law school curve beat the "special snowflake syndrome" out of you. That is what happened to me and I am much better off for it.


Some people just have to learn the hard way over and over again in life. I am one of those people.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby Johann » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:03 am

Lost_Dreams wrote:
I agree the post was pretty pointless. and this entire thread is a false premise.

HOWEVER, Plenty of people go from IT consulting or management consulting to law school. IT consulting, even at Deloitte, has a pretty harsh ceiling. And the work honestly isn't that inspiring. And before "zomg law firm work is just tedious bullshit too", yes, true, but it's a wider variety of options ex ante than what the day to day experience feels like in IT, regardless of the merits of those sentiments. Some of us who left consulting for law school had good reason.


I used to think the same way regarding IT consulting. I actually really disliked IT consutling, since 1) I hated traveling every week to bumfuck places, 2) work was very specialized / many times not analytical at all, 3) you need to kiss lots of ass and be a stellar salesman to move towards management level.

I craved for work that was a bit more analytical - something that would enable me to play more with data set, work with Excel spreadsheet, build models, etc. Hence, I basically taught myself all the Excel, SQL, Access, Java, C++, etc skills on my own, networked, etc and broke into the data analytics position (this is very, very far away from an IT consulting position) that I am at now. From this experience, I really learned a lesson that: if you are not happy with your current job, it's not the end of the world. Just do the best you can at your job, and in your free time, develop the skills you need to break into the job you would desire, and network with people in your desired job/ field/ industry. I'd say that has a much better chance of getting you the type of job you want as opposed to just going to a grad school with very limited amount of work experience in any shape, form, or kind.

Lastly, you can make very good money in IT consulting, after senior manager level and up. I mean, the director level folks at my last gig were making 260k+, not counting any bonuses. And, almost none of these guys had any grad degree. However, from manager level and up, you really need to sell work and bring in clients to move up. Otherwise, your ceiling is probably manager level, which would cap you at 150-180k a year at most. However, I consider that to be the case in many other professions as well, including law. (In Biglaw, you need sales skills to make partner)


This guy is full of himself. But everything he says is accurate.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby Johann » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:09 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
daryldixon wrote:This is the worst thread ever. It is pointless to try to argue with fools. We have two types of people in this thread. Those that have gone to law school, taken out debt, and experienced the job market for themselves and those who have not. Honestly, unless you go through it yourself you are never going to believe everyone else. So I say go. Get into debt and let the job market and the law school curve beat the "special snowflake syndrome" out of you. That is what happened to me and I am much better off for it.


Some people just have to learn the hard way over and over again in life. I am one of those people.


We know in the end they'll make the same mistakes we did. But we just hope it hurts them a little bit more because every time they think about their situation they will know they had the scoop from day 1 and refused to believe it. The oracles always make the tragedy that much worse.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby dwil770 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:15 pm

daryldixon wrote:This is the worst thread ever. It is pointless to try to argue with fools. We have two types of people in this thread. Those that have gone to law school, taken out debt, and experienced the job market for themselves and those who have not. Honestly, unless you go through it yourself you are never going to believe everyone else. So I say go. Get into debt and let the job market and the law school curve beat the "special snowflake syndrome" out of you. That is what happened to me and I am much better off for it.


I think you are missing the point. It isn't about denying that big law sucks. It is about the suggestion that big law isn't necessarily worse than other "similar" (in terms of prestige, money, and education I suppose) professions. For whatever reason people in big law take offense to this notion, I guess because they feel under attack (but I do see their complaints as legitimate). I would suggest that it is those people who have the special snowflake syndrome if they are unwilling to consider that other professions are similarly shit.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ssion.html

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby First Offense » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:25 pm

One thing I've noticed both here on TLS and in law school in general.

The vast majority of law students I've interacted with have a huge victim complex. Law school is somehow unfair, life is struggle and pain, and if anything doesn't echo their macabre outlook they are quick to shout it down. Like anything else in life - it is what you make it. The work in law school is hard and the competition is better - so that ends up with many people getting a stark realization for the first time. Jobs aren't easy to come by (at the same time, they're not easy to come by anywhere else, either), and the jobs you get work you very hard - and with a large portion of these students being K-JD, they haven't worked before.

It's not right for everybody, and you need to do some serious fucking soul-searching before you sink the time/money into it. Don't think you're better than anyone you're at school with - and go in predicting you'll hit median or below when gauging whether or not it's worth it. For some it will be, and for others it won't. Don't listen to the doom and gloom shit either, though. It's possible to like law school.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby 84651846190 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:04 pm

First Offense wrote:One thing I've noticed both here on TLS and in law school in general.

The vast majority of law students I've interacted with have a huge victim complex. Law school is somehow unfair, life is struggle and pain, and if anything doesn't echo their macabre outlook they are quick to shout it down. Like anything else in life - it is what you make it. The work in law school is hard and the competition is better - so that ends up with many people getting a stark realization for the first time. Jobs aren't easy to come by (at the same time, they're not easy to come by anywhere else, either), and the jobs you get work you very hard - and with a large portion of these students being K-JD, they haven't worked before.

It's not right for everybody, and you need to do some serious fucking soul-searching before you sink the time/money into it. Don't think you're better than anyone you're at school with - and go in predicting you'll hit median or below when gauging whether or not it's worth it. For some it will be, and for others it won't. Don't listen to the doom and gloom shit either, though. It's possible to like law school.


Jobs are easy as fuck to come by if you're in med school. They matched everyone except for like 5.6% of allopathic students this year into residencies.

Also, some of us take responsibility for our actions and don't have a victim complex at all.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby spleenworship » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:13 pm

First Offense wrote:One thing I've noticed both here on TLS and in law school in general.

The vast majority of law students I've interacted with have a huge victim complex. Law school is somehow unfair, life is struggle and pain, and if anything doesn't echo their macabre outlook they are quick to shout it down.



Noticing something sucks and saying it sucks isn't playing the victim. Playing the victim is when you draw attention to the suck for sympathy or to get what you want but do not necessarily deserve. Coming on here or going in the law school and bitching about the suck in an attempt to educate others or motivate change isn't playing the victim.

Also, to the bolded:

Image

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby TelegramSam » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:40 pm

spleenworship wrote:
First Offense wrote:One thing I've noticed both here on TLS and in law school in general.

The vast majority of law students I've interacted with have a huge victim complex. Law school is somehow unfair, life is struggle and pain, and if anything doesn't echo their macabre outlook they are quick to shout it down.



Noticing something sucks and saying it sucks isn't playing the victim. Playing the victim is when you draw attention to the suck for sympathy or to get what you want but do not necessarily deserve. Coming on here or going in the law school and bitching about the suck in an attempt to educate others or motivate change isn't playing the victim.

Also, to the bolded:

Image


This dude also thinks that black people are inherently violent criminals, so I wouldn't put too much stock in anything he says

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:42 pm

Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby spleenworship » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:44 pm

TelegramSam wrote:
This dude also thinks that black people are inherently violent criminals, so I wouldn't put too much stock in anything he says



I can't remember... Isn't he also the dude who was homeschooled and thought Jesus rode a dinosaur until he was 20?

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby lecsa » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:46 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.


Law school was super easy, maybe easier than undergrad. I never read after first semester.
Last edited by lecsa on Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby spleenworship » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:47 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.


I do agree a lot of law students whine and complain for no purpose. I was responding to the implication that people are coming on here and bitching for no purpose, which is totally untrue since a lot of us bitch in an attempt to educate 0Ls and law students.

And having worked a 60 hour week several times in my life, I agree it sucks. I've never done it in biglaw, which probably sucks even more, but that much time away from family, friends, and hobbies gets old pretty quick.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby First Offense » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:48 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.

That seems fair - but even then, that's not talking points people use. You hear horror stories of every week being ~100 hours, crap like that.

I get that it's a lot of work, and I get that it's certainly not for everyone. But it seems like if you don't 100% buy in to the "life is hell" message lately, you're some blind dumbass. The message should be go in having an idea of what you're getting into, and do some real analysis of what your outcomes could reasonably be. Instead it's just banging the drum of "even good outcomes are bad".

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby patogordo » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:51 pm

what are you even arguing for, bro? "don't tell people biglaw is terrible, just tell them it's bad enough to not be worth going to law school" yea, what a sea change in discourse that would be.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby El Pollito » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.

Get fucked.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:53 pm

First Offense wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.

That seems fair - but even then, that's not talking points people use. You hear horror stories of every week being ~100 hours, crap like that.

I get that it's a lot of work, and I get that it's certainly not for everyone. But it seems like if you don't 100% buy in to the "life is hell" message lately, you're some blind dumbass. The message should be go in having an idea of what you're getting into, and do some real analysis of what your outcomes could reasonably be. Instead it's just banging the drum of "even good outcomes are bad".

I don't think there's a problem with not thinking life is hell. I liked law school fine and I like my job (not biglaw). The problem is when people who are in biglaw talk about what it's like, and 0Ls or 1Ls or any other people who haven't worked biglaw tell them they're just being whiners and they knew what they were getting into and it's still better than consulting/digging ditches.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby First Offense » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:56 pm

patogordo wrote:what are you even arguing for, bro? "don't tell people biglaw is terrible, just tell them it's bad enough to not be worth going to law school" yea, what a sea change in discourse that would be.

The thing is, the sky is falling message doesn't get through to the huge sea of people that shouldn't be going to law school. It's dishonest, or at least disingenuous, and smacks of butthurt on behalf of those that miss it. Whether that's true or not is immaterial - it sounds angry and isn't doing any good.

TLS has done a lot of good. It's caused a lot of people to really examine their options, retake, and maybe not go into law school in the first place. That wasn't done through blind rage - it was done through more transparency and openness about the entire process. That's been lost on the next generation, and now you just get red in the faced people shouting about how awful it all is. That's pretty easy to ignore as a prospective law student.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby First Offense » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:58 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
First Offense wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.

That seems fair - but even then, that's not talking points people use. You hear horror stories of every week being ~100 hours, crap like that.

I get that it's a lot of work, and I get that it's certainly not for everyone. But it seems like if you don't 100% buy in to the "life is hell" message lately, you're some blind dumbass. The message should be go in having an idea of what you're getting into, and do some real analysis of what your outcomes could reasonably be. Instead it's just banging the drum of "even good outcomes are bad".

I don't think there's a problem with not thinking life is hell. I liked law school fine and I like my job (not biglaw). The problem is when people who are in biglaw talk about what it's like, and 0Ls or 1Ls or any other people who haven't worked biglaw tell them they're just being whiners and they knew what they were getting into and it's still better than consulting/digging ditches.

You get just as many 0Ls/1Ls/2Ls yelling about how awful big law is to be part of the TLS in crowd as you get 0Ls/1Ls/2Ls yelling about how great making those fat stacks is going to be.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby NYSprague » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:59 pm

dwil770 wrote:
daryldixon wrote:This is the worst thread ever. It is pointless to try to argue with fools. We have two types of people in this thread. Those that have gone to law school, taken out debt, and experienced the job market for themselves and those who have not. Honestly, unless you go through it yourself you are never going to believe everyone else. So I say go. Get into debt and let the job market and the law school curve beat the "special snowflake syndrome" out of you. That is what happened to me and I am much better off for it.


I think you are missing the point. It isn't about denying that big law sucks. It is about the suggestion that big law isn't necessarily worse than other "similar" (in terms of prestige, money, and education I suppose) professions. For whatever reason people in big law take offense to this notion, I guess because they feel under attack (but I do see their complaints as legitimate). I would suggest that it is those people who have the special snowflake syndrome if they are unwilling to consider that other professions are similarly shit.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ssion.html


I don't know about other professions, so I can't address them. I would point out some major flaws in assuming they are the same:

The bimodal salary distribution - either very high or pretty much you are making around $50,000 or less. Or you never even get to practice law.

The lack of job mobility if you don't get biglaw from school, it is difficult to work your way in

Many people make their highest salaries in the beginning of their careers

The lack of PI hiring due lack of funding, which forecloses a back up option.

The fundamental shift in biglaw post-crash: revenue basically flat and not predicted to improve much. The shift in client's willingness to pay.

Law requires an additional 3 years of education and a huge amount of tuition, whether you borrow the money or not. And then you need to pass the bar.

You don't leave law school with the skill to practice law without additional training.

Hiring is fickle. Grades and stats don't guarantee anything, unlike getting accepted to law school. The best you can do is hedge your bets.

Law is incredibly oversaturated. The competition for jobs is intense.

Edit to add: the forced curve meaning there will only be a handful of A grades.(Do other professions have this?)
.....
I'm sure there are more but these are characteristics of law as it is now.
Last edited by NYSprague on Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby 20170322 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:01 pm

OK, maybe I'm reading this thread the wrong way, but it seems that virtually everyone here is saying "don't go to law under any circumstances."


Would it make sense for a graduate with a humanities degree to pursue a JD at, say, UVA or NU, if they received full tuition (COA was under 100k) and they had goals for biglaw litigation?

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:03 pm

First Offense wrote:
patogordo wrote:what are you even arguing for, bro? "don't tell people biglaw is terrible, just tell them it's bad enough to not be worth going to law school" yea, what a sea change in discourse that would be.

The thing is, the sky is falling message doesn't get through to the huge sea of people that shouldn't be going to law school. It's dishonest, or at least disingenuous, and smacks of butthurt on behalf of those that miss it. Whether that's true or not is immaterial - it sounds angry and isn't doing any good.

TLS has done a lot of good. It's caused a lot of people to really examine their options, retake, and maybe not go into law school in the first place. That wasn't done through blind rage - it was done through more transparency and openness about the entire process. That's been lost on the next generation, and now you just get red in the faced people shouting about how awful it all is. That's pretty easy to ignore as a prospective law student.


He's bragged about his grades enough for this to be a lot of post-hoc rationalization. "I got good grades, so law school isn't bad! People are dumb for not liking it."

He's just an idiot.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby kaiser » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:04 pm

SweetTort wrote:OK, maybe I'm reading this thread the wrong way, but it seems that virtually everyone here is saying "don't go to law under any circumstances."


Would it make sense for a graduate with a humanities degree to pursue a JD at, say, UVA or NU, if they received full tuition (COA was under 100k) and they had goals for biglaw litigation?


ALmost no one is saying "don't go to law school under any circumstances"

The crux of the argument is that many grads regret taking out as much debt as we did. Its not that we regret going to law school

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:06 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Law students are huge fucking complainers. People on TLS would talk about how law school takes 80 hours a week of studying. LOL.

But biglaw actually blows. People saying 100 hours a week ARE exaggerating. But 60 hours a week is pretty common and 60 hours a week does suck. That's getting up at 8 to get ready and commute in by 9:30. Working til 7pm. Commuting home. Sitting down on your couch at 7:45. Eating, then doing an hour more work. And then ~10 hours on the weekend.


I do agree a lot of law students whine and complain for no purpose. I was responding to the implication that people are coming on here and bitching for no purpose, which is totally untrue since a lot of us bitch in an attempt to educate 0Ls and law students.

And having worked a 60 hour week several times in my life, I agree it sucks. I've never done it in biglaw, which probably sucks even more, but that much time away from family, friends, and hobbies gets old pretty quick.


It's so so so much worse when when its constant. During UG and LS I'd go like 100 hours a week during midterms and finals. That's nothing compared to 60 hours regular.

Working weekends back to back is like 19 days of work in a row. Even slaves got sundays off.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby spleenworship » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:09 pm

kaiser wrote:
SweetTort wrote:OK, maybe I'm reading this thread the wrong way, but it seems that virtually everyone here is saying "don't go to law under any circumstances."


Would it make sense for a graduate with a humanities degree to pursue a JD at, say, UVA or NU, if they received full tuition (COA was under 100k) and they had goals for biglaw litigation?


ALmost no one is saying "don't go to law school under any circumstances"

The crux of the argument is that many grads regret taking out as much debt as we did. Its not that we regret going to law school


And the ones who are saying "don't go to law school under any circumstances" are probably trolls. I might hate the hell out of law school, and hate the vale even more, and I would never say the above.

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Re: The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:10 pm

kaiser wrote:
SweetTort wrote:OK, maybe I'm reading this thread the wrong way, but it seems that virtually everyone here is saying "don't go to law under any circumstances."


Would it make sense for a graduate with a humanities degree to pursue a JD at, say, UVA or NU, if they received full tuition (COA was under 100k) and they had goals for biglaw litigation?


ALmost no one is saying "don't go to law school under any circumstances"

The crux of the argument is that many grads regret taking out as much debt as we did. Its not that we regret going to law school

Yeah, I haven't seen anyone say "don't go under any circumstances." I've seen people say, "don't go assuming you'll get biglaw," "don't go assuming you'll make partner/stay in biglaw," "don't take out debt," and "you, person considering paying sticker at Golden Gate or Cooley, don't go to law school." For some reason people keep reading these comments as "don't go under any circumstances."



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