The fundamental problem with 0L's.

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NYSprague

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby NYSprague » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:39 pm

baloneydanza wrote:Seriously though, what if associates went on strike? What if law firms democratized? The conditions are shit but they don't have to be. Although I imagine anyone who's in debt will want to make as much money as possible to pay it off, so in that case they might better off with the status quo.

Apart from all the other points wrong about this idea, remember the following: the partners can do the work without you, almost all the time better than you and faster than you. They need you because they don't have time to do all their work themselves. During the recession many firms got rid of associates and they managed just fine. You aren't bringing anything great to the table.

As you know there are thousands of people who would happily take your place, probably for less money, if firms had the guts to cut associates salaries more than they already have.( I think that Campos had a post about law firm salaries falling due to the hiring of permanent associates for less money.) And the reduced bonuses.

On top of that, most of the conditions are a result of servicing clients on tight, immovable deadlines. The firm can't change that.

OTOH: my aunt needed to get some tax stuff for an estate from a small law firm upstate and they don't work on weekends. She had to make a special trip. I had never heard of this not working on weekends before.

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:56 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
you joke, but sometimes I tell one of the dozo grads at my firm how to do his job.


The lower school people seem smarter/hard working to me. Top 1% from W&L is probably smarter/more hard working than below median at Harvard.

I've noticed this as well. And there's evidence that the grads from lower-ranked schools who make big law are more successful than their T14 counterparts:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ower-tier/

Most of the working attorneys ITT (myself included) are special snowflakes who went to "elite" law schools. We're the most susceptible to big-law-induced misery. The lower-tier grads who somehow make it to big law are just so happy to be there it makes me want to vomit. For them, big law seems like a SCOTUS clerkship.


I don't think it's that they are just happy to be there. It's that they are egregious gunners who get off on misery. Which is what it takes to get good lawschool grades.

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:00 pm

Of course we are bringing something good to the table. That's why they are paying us so much. If you are doing work that any idiot can do, you are idiot in your class or your boss isn't giving you real work.

The problem is collectivizing the workforce. That's hard to do in white collar environments. Like Ray said, the firm would implode and the partners would flee.

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homestyle28

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:07 pm

IAFG wrote:We live check to check on $200k/yr. Loans, taxes and childcare are no fucking joke.


LOL @ the poors.

ETA: paying for childcare blows. My kids school doesn't even give you a discount for having more than 1.

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kalvano

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby kalvano » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:40 pm

homestyle28 wrote:
IAFG wrote:We live check to check on $200k/yr. Loans, taxes and childcare are no fucking joke.


LOL @ the poors.

ETA: paying for childcare blows. My kids school doesn't even give you a discount for having more than 1.


I couldn't believe it when my wife said $800 a month for daycare is cheap.

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rayiner

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby rayiner » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:51 pm

kalvano wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:
IAFG wrote:We live check to check on $200k/yr. Loans, taxes and childcare are no fucking joke.


LOL @ the poors.

ETA: paying for childcare blows. My kids school doesn't even give you a discount for having more than 1.


I couldn't believe it when my wife said $800 a month for daycare is cheap.


We pay $1,300 a month, and they're only basically 8-6. So you need some sort of post-daycare situation, which is in our case my mother (who does it for free, thank god).

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:52 pm

rayiner wrote:
kalvano wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:
IAFG wrote:We live check to check on $200k/yr. Loans, taxes and childcare are no fucking joke.


LOL @ the poors.

ETA: paying for childcare blows. My kids school doesn't even give you a discount for having more than 1.


I couldn't believe it when my wife said $800 a month for daycare is cheap.


We pay $1,300 a month, and they're only basically 8-6. So you need some sort of post-daycare situation, which is in our case my mother (who does it for free, thank god).


Haha my firm provides emergency baby care. By which they mean, you have to work super late.

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homestyle28

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:53 pm

rayiner wrote:
kalvano wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:
IAFG wrote:We live check to check on $200k/yr. Loans, taxes and childcare are no fucking joke.


LOL @ the poors.

ETA: paying for childcare blows. My kids school doesn't even give you a discount for having more than 1.


I couldn't believe it when my wife said $800 a month for daycare is cheap.


We pay $1,300 a month, and they're only basically 8-6. So you need some sort of post-daycare situation, which is in our case my mother (who does it for free, thank god).


IBF IAFG comments on the real costs of having your mom do it for "free" ;)

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rayiner

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby rayiner » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:54 pm

homestyle28 wrote:IBF IAFG comments on the real costs of having your mom do it for "free" ;)


They fight over random shit, but before I got married my mom told me point blank: "If you guys fight, I'm going to take her side."

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homestyle28

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:54 pm

Wepay 2100 a month for 2 kids in Chicago burbs. It'll be 1900/mo when I start working. I try not to look at my kids as the walking reasons I won't pay off my debt/live the model& bottles lifestyle for many many many years.

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IAFG

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:55 pm

Hahahaha. As rayiner constantly tells me, if you don't wanna do it, you can't complain about how someone else does it.

But I still so complain. Constantly.

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homestyle28

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:55 pm

rayiner wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:IBF IAFG comments on the real costs of having your mom do it for "free" ;)


They fight over random shit, but before I got married my mom told me point blank: "If you guys fight, I'm going to take her side."


That's only because your mom knows she raised an asshole. :lol:

Kidding, you're a solid dude.

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homestyle28

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:56 pm

IAFG wrote:Hahahaha. As rayiner constantly tells me, if you don't wanna do it, you can't complain about how someone else does it.

But I still so complain. Constantly.


:D That's what we say when grandparent provide emergency care too. Except, why does Grandpa have to leave on CNN all day (aka who got raped, blown up, etc., today kids)?

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worldtraveler

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:05 pm

rayiner wrote:
kalvano wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:
IAFG wrote:We live check to check on $200k/yr. Loans, taxes and childcare are no fucking joke.


LOL @ the poors.

ETA: paying for childcare blows. My kids school doesn't even give you a discount for having more than 1.


I couldn't believe it when my wife said $800 a month for daycare is cheap.


We pay $1,300 a month, and they're only basically 8-6. So you need some sort of post-daycare situation, which is in our case my mother (who does it for free, thank god).


The key is to marry someone with a huge extended family that fights over raising your kid for you.

I already have extended family fighting over taking care of some hypothetical child who won't even exist for another few years.

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yossarian

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby yossarian » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:12 pm

worldtraveler wrote:The key is to marry someone with a huge extended family that fights over raising your kid for you.

I already have extended family fighting over taking care of some hypothetical child who won't even exist for another few years.


Just changed my dating approach.

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sd5289

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby sd5289 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:59 pm

rayiner wrote:We pay $1,300 a month, and they're only basically 8-6. So you need some sort of post-daycare situation, which is in our case my mother (who does it for free, thank god).


:shock:

Note to self: do not have kids. Especially on our PI jerb salaries.

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spleenworship

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby spleenworship » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:07 pm

We pay $400 a month for one child (other is in public school), thank God, but they don't operate in June, July, or August. Also, given the number of holidays we Jews have, there are frequently days we need my mom to pick up the slack.

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IAFG

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:10 pm

spleenworship wrote:We pay $400 a month for one child (other is in public school), thank God, but they don't operate in June, July, or August. Also, given the number of holidays we Jews have, there are frequently days we need my mom to pick up the slack.

Is this a daycare or a boarding kennel? J/W

Mal Reynolds

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:12 pm

Iowa girl, how does it feel to be the breadwinner in the family now.

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IAFG

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:38 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:Iowa girl, how does it feel to be the breadwinner in the family now.

I feel like the world's most chauvinistic 1950s dad. I am Don Draper without the affairs (but with the drinking problem). My answer to everything is "WHO PAYS THE BILLS AROUND HERE?"

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worldtraveler

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:32 pm

IAFG wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Iowa girl, how does it feel to be the breadwinner in the family now.

I feel like the world's most chauvinistic 1950s dad. I am Don Draper without the affairs (but with the drinking problem). My answer to everything is "WHO PAYS THE BILLS AROUND HERE?"


How drunk were you when you decided to marry him?

Corsair once told me he thought rayiner was trying to die alone. Funny how that turned out.

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IAFG

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:36 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Iowa girl, how does it feel to be the breadwinner in the family now.

I feel like the world's most chauvinistic 1950s dad. I am Don Draper without the affairs (but with the drinking problem). My answer to everything is "WHO PAYS THE BILLS AROUND HERE?"


How drunk were you when you decided to marry him?

Corsair once told me he thought rayiner was trying to die alone. Funny how that turned out.

I wasn't drunk at all. I was pregnant.

dixiecupdrinking

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:24 pm

rayiner wrote:Besides. Its not the firms' fault you took out a ton of debt and signed up for a job when you didn't know what it was like. Most firms don't try to make things miserable on purpose. Its a side effect of an over saturated profession with declinging demand and exploding supply.

Yeah, this. It's not like we're chained inside the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory. Biglaw compensates more than adequately for what it is and associate complaints basically boil down to "I don't like biglaw," which, fine, then leave. And people do leave, regularly, which firms know and expect and want to happen. The reason these firms get to charge what they charge is because they do shit right, right away, and that means your ass is on the clock until the work is done. But considering those parameters to the job, they don't usually treat associates all that inhumanely (with exceptions for certain sociopaths of course).

In other words, the problem isn't really biglaw, it's the law school profit machine that makes indebted graduates do biglaw when they otherwise wouldn't. Nothing your firm can really do about that.

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spleenworship

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby spleenworship » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:42 pm

IAFG wrote:
spleenworship wrote:We pay $400 a month for one child (other is in public school), thank God, but they don't operate in June, July, or August. Also, given the number of holidays we Jews have, there are frequently days we need my mom to pick up the slack.

Is this a daycare or a boarding kennel? J/W


Either way we don't have to stop him from drinking bleach 6 hours a day. So it's a win for us.

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star fox

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Re: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

Postby star fox » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:50 am

I thought applications were way down? Clearly some people are getting the message?



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