The fundamental problem with 0L's. Forum

[First Offense]

This is the most bleak fucking thing I've ever read. Law school is not that bad.

Give it time, 1L, give it time.

You're the same guy that was complaining about how he was a slave, right? Fuck off.

[TheSpanishMain]

This is the most bleak fucking thing I've ever read. Law school is not that bad.

Give it time, 1L, give it time.

You're the same guy that was complaining about how he was a slave, right? Fuck off.

u mad bro?

[northwood]

The problem I see with 0L's ( myself included when I was a 0L) is that the debt that is incurred when they go to law school is just an abstract number, so why not go. Since before you enter law school ( or before your second week of classes- when you can still drop out and get a full refund) you don't have an obligation to repay that debt, its easy to say -well its just the cost of getting the opportunity to practice law. Once you realize how expensive it is, and how difficult it can be to service that debt, you are half way through 1L year ( maybe) and then you may think.. well I'm 1 /6th( or 1/3rd) done, and im doing pretty well, so I can handle this. 2L year you are doing a ton of extracurriculars, so you are too busy/ stressed with school work to notice. Getting a summer position isn't that bad, because you are a 2L, and places can use you, and simply no offer you and they profit- and you realize you don't want to do that type of work. Then by August entering your 3L year, when at this point its too late to stop, and you are up at 4am working on mass mailing applications ( unless you get a post bar exam offer ) and get reminded of your financial obligation to repay those loans, which is not dischargable in bankruptcy the realization that that once abstract number is actually a really scary and big obligation, and you still have to figure out a way to pay for the bar exam. And you also know that you need to pass the bar exam on your first attempt, or else your offer gets rescinded, and you have to figure out something to do to start paying back those loans- and pay for a second attempt at the bar exam ( which you will have to study for while working.... which greatly lowers your likelihood for passing).

[Theopliske8711]

life is suffering. if you weren't born rich you're better off just staying poor and shooting heroin until you die.

"...life in its entirety was a misfortune you could not struggle against but only endure."
- Camus

Granted he was talking about living impoverished in Algeria, but I can say that for my first world problems as well, I think.

[spleenworship]

This is the most bleak fucking thing I've ever read. Law school is not that bad.

Give it time, 1L, give it time.

You're the same guy that was complaining about how he was a slave, right? Fuck off.

[chem]

The problem I see with 0L's ( myself included when I was a 0L) is that the debt that is incurred when they go to law school is just an abstract number, so why not go. Since before you enter law school ( or before your second week of classes- when you can still drop out and get a full refund) you don't have an obligation to repay that debt, its easy to say -well its just the cost of getting the opportunity to practice law. Once you realize how expensive it is, and how difficult it can be to service that debt, you are half way through 1L year ( maybe) and then you may think.. well I'm 1 /6th( or 1/3rd) done, and im doing pretty well, so I can handle this. 2L year you are doing a ton of extracurriculars, so you are too busy/ stressed with school work to notice. Getting a summer position isn't that bad, because you are a 2L, and places can use you, and simply no offer you and they profit- and you realize you don't want to do that type of work. Then by August entering your 3L year, when at this point its too late to stop, and you are up at 4am working on mass mailing applications ( unless you get a post bar exam offer ) and get reminded of your financial obligation to repay those loans, which is not dischargable in bankruptcy the realization that that once abstract number is actually a really scary and big obligation, and you still have to figure out a way to pay for the bar exam. And you also know that you need to pass the bar exam on your first attempt, or else your offer gets rescinded, and you have to figure out something to do to start paying back those loans- and pay for a second attempt at the bar exam ( which you will have to study for while working.... which greatly lowers your likelihood for passing).

At least for biglaw, the first is categorically untrue, and the second is anecdotally untrue. I also realize the vast majority of law students don't get biglaw and I know nothing about other jobs

[beachbum]

It's a combination of factors: strivers, the forced curve, the cold calls, the unbelievable competition to get a job, the need to get good grades to get the job or keep a scholarship, the randomness of the process, the enforced social isolation, the crushing debt... Etc etc etc. in the end it all combines to produce an experience that destroys your self confidence and feelings of worth. IMO, they do this on purpose or subconsciously perpetuate it to produce stunningly good critical thinkers who at the very same time lack the self confidence and willpower to fight their relegation to peons and servants of the elite.

This is the most bleak fucking thing I've ever read. Law school is not that bad.

[Mal Reynolds]

Pretty sure spleen goes to a TTT so YMMV.

[beachbum]

Pretty sure spleen goes to a TTT so YMMV.

That's fair. I imagine things are probably much different at your average TTT. But to generalize that experience to "law school" - particularly in a forum where many members are attending T14s - is pretty ridiculous. For most TLSers, law school is/will not be that bad.

[spleenworship]

Pretty sure spleen goes to a TTT so YMMV.

That's fair. I imagine things are probably much different at your average TTT. But to generalize that experience to "law school" - particularly in a forum where many members are attending T14s - is pretty ridiculous. For most TLSers, law school is/will not be that bad.

While I am at a TT, our job placement numbers are more similar to those of a lower T14.

But I'll be honest - I probably shouldn't be listened to right now either. I'm in the vale despite doing everything right, I'm three weeks away from graduation and dealin with a lot of shit both school and personal related. I've lost my dream job.

So, tl;dr - I'm in a bad place personally even with the help of antidepressants.

I'm just going to stop posting outside my few home threads for a while. And definitely not going to offer any advice to 0Ls.

ETA: my apologies to everyone except the bro who got mad. Cuz that was funny.

[Mal Reynolds]

New Mexico has 0% big firm and 1% clerkship placement. That is not like a lower t14, but that's probably a digression.

[spleenworship]

New Mexico has 0% big firm and 1% clerkship placement. That is not like a lower t14, but that's probably a digression.

Overall numbers. We were at 72% FTL jobs. But yeah, no biglaw in 2013. 2014 will have 1 placement, lol. Mostly because the closest biglaw firms are Dallas, Phoenix, and Denver. All of which have their own schools. But at least people are getting jerbs as lawyers. Not me yet... But, you know, other people.


ETA: and biglaw matters for us less since in-state tuition is only ~$17,000 a year.

[09042014]

New Mexico has 0% big firm and 1% clerkship placement. That is not like a lower t14, but that's probably a digression.

Overall numbers. We were at 72% FTL jobs. But yeah, no biglaw in 2013. 2014 will have 1 placement, lol. Mostly because the closest biglaw firms are Dallas, Phoenix, and Denver. All of which have their own schools. But at least people are getting jerbs as lawyers. Not me yet... But, you know, other people.


ETA: and biglaw matters for us less since in-state tuition is only ~$17,000 a year.

Smells like t14 to me.

[spleenworship]

Smells like t14 to me.

This should be a law revue parody set to the Nirvana song.

[First Offense]

Pretty sure spleen goes to a TTT so YMMV.

That's fair. I imagine things are probably much different at your average TTT. But to generalize that experience to "law school" - particularly in a forum where many members are attending T14s - is pretty ridiculous. For most TLSers, law school is/will not be that bad.

While I am at a TT, our job placement numbers are more similar to those of a lower T14.

But I'll be honest - I probably shouldn't be listened to right now either. I'm in the vale despite doing everything right, I'm three weeks away from graduation and dealin with a lot of shit both school and personal related. I've lost my dream job.

So, tl;dr - I'm in a bad place personally even with the help of antidepressants.

I'm just going to stop posting outside my few home threads for a while. And definitely not going to offer any advice to 0Ls.

ETA: my apologies to everyone except the bro who got mad. Cuz that was funny.

Telling an idiot who equates debt for a law degree to slavery to fuck off isn't me getting mad. You have a warped view of the world - your advice to 0Ls, or I'll wager anyone else - is likely shaded with the same lack of self-awareness that leads you to make the comparison in the first place.

[spleenworship]

Telling an idiot who equates debt for a law degree to slavery to fuck off isn't me getting mad. You have a warped view of the world - your advice to 0Ls, or I'll wager anyone else - is likely shaded with the same lack of self-awareness that leads you to make the comparison in the first place.

[First Offense]

Telling an idiot who equates debt for a law degree to slavery to fuck off isn't me getting mad. You have a warped view of the world - your advice to 0Ls, or I'll wager anyone else - is likely shaded with the same lack of self-awareness that leads you to make the comparison in the first place.

[NYSprague]

The problem I see with 0L's ( myself included when I was a 0L) is that the debt that is incurred when they go to law school is just an abstract number, so why not go. Since before you enter law school ( or before your second week of classes- when you can still drop out and get a full refund) you don't have an obligation to repay that debt, its easy to say -well its just the cost of getting the opportunity to practice law. Once you realize how expensive it is, and how difficult it can be to service that debt, you are half way through 1L year ( maybe) and then you may think.. well I'm 1 /6th( or 1/3rd) done, and im doing pretty well, so I can handle this. 2L year you are doing a ton of extracurriculars, so you are too busy/ stressed with school work to notice. Getting a summer position isn't that bad, because you are a 2L, and places can use you, and simply no offer you and they profit- and you realize you don't want to do that type of work. Then by August entering your 3L year, when at this point its too late to stop, and you are up at 4am working on mass mailing applications ( unless you get a post bar exam offer ) and get reminded of your financial obligation to repay those loans, which is not dischargable in bankruptcy the realization that that once abstract number is actually a really scary and big obligation, and you still have to figure out a way to pay for the bar exam. And you also know that you need to pass the bar exam on your first attempt, or else your offer gets rescinded, and you have to figure out something to do to start paying back those loans- and pay for a second attempt at the bar exam ( which you will have to study for while working.... which greatly lowers your likelihood for passing).

At least for biglaw, the first is categorically untrue, and the second is anecdotally untrue. I also realize the vast majority of law students don't get biglaw and I know nothing about other jobs

Big firms no offer people every summer. I'm not sure what you mean

[bk1]

The problem I see with 0L's ( myself included when I was a 0L) is that the debt that is incurred when they go to law school is just an abstract number, so why not go. Since before you enter law school ( or before your second week of classes- when you can still drop out and get a full refund) you don't have an obligation to repay that debt, its easy to say -well its just the cost of getting the opportunity to practice law. Once you realize how expensive it is, and how difficult it can be to service that debt, you are half way through 1L year ( maybe) and then you may think.. well I'm 1 /6th( or 1/3rd) done, and im doing pretty well, so I can handle this. 2L year you are doing a ton of extracurriculars, so you are too busy/ stressed with school work to notice. Getting a summer position isn't that bad, because you are a 2L, and places can use you, and simply no offer you and they profit- and you realize you don't want to do that type of work. Then by August entering your 3L year, when at this point its too late to stop, and you are up at 4am working on mass mailing applications ( unless you get a post bar exam offer ) and get reminded of your financial obligation to repay those loans, which is not dischargable in bankruptcy the realization that that once abstract number is actually a really scary and big obligation, and you still have to figure out a way to pay for the bar exam. And you also know that you need to pass the bar exam on your first attempt, or else your offer gets rescinded, and you have to figure out something to do to start paying back those loans- and pay for a second attempt at the bar exam ( which you will have to study for while working.... which greatly lowers your likelihood for passing).

At least for biglaw, the first is categorically untrue, and the second is anecdotally untrue. I also realize the vast majority of law students don't get biglaw and I know nothing about other jobs

Big firms no offer people every summer. I'm not sure what you mean

I think he means that firms don't "profit" from hiring someone as an SA and then no offering them.

[jarofsoup]

I liked that article. Special little expendable snowflakes.

[ggocat]

Are any areas of law better in this regard than others? This is actually a pretty core need for me in a long-term career.

I dunno I guess people say appellate is brainier.

I do appellate work. It's interesting most of the time, though I'm not too familiar with appellate at biglaw--just one former coworker does that now. She does appellate work but also motions research and writing. I understand "appellate" attorneys at other firms also do motions work, jury charge stuff, and some other things during trial. From what I understand, the job of "appellate lawyer" is pretty elusive for associates. I've known people with 5+ years in government doing strictly appellate work who can't break into the niche. This is probably because the best appellate lawyers were trial lawyers first.

[ggocat]

The problem I see with 0L's ( myself included when I was a 0L) is that the debt that is incurred when they go to law school is just an abstract number, so why not go. Since before you enter law school ( or before your second week of classes- when you can still drop out and get a full refund) you don't have an obligation to repay that debt, its easy to say -well its just the cost of getting the opportunity to practice law. Once you realize how expensive it is, and how difficult it can be to service that debt, you are half way through 1L year ( maybe) and then you may think.. well I'm 1 /6th( or 1/3rd) done, and im doing pretty well, so I can handle this. 2L year you are doing a ton of extracurriculars, so you are too busy/ stressed with school work to notice. Getting a summer position isn't that bad, because you are a 2L, and places can use you, and simply no offer you and they profit- and you realize you don't want to do that type of work. Then by August entering your 3L year, when at this point its too late to stop, and you are up at 4am working on mass mailing applications ( unless you get a post bar exam offer ) and get reminded of your financial obligation to repay those loans, which is not dischargable in bankruptcy the realization that that once abstract number is actually a really scary and big obligation, and you still have to figure out a way to pay for the bar exam. And you also know that you need to pass the bar exam on your first attempt, or else your offer gets rescinded, and you have to figure out something to do to start paying back those loans- and pay for a second attempt at the bar exam ( which you will have to study for while working.... which greatly lowers your likelihood for passing).

At least for biglaw, the first is categorically untrue, and the second is anecdotally untrue. I also realize the vast majority of law students don't get biglaw and I know nothing about other jobs

Big firms no offer people every summer. I'm not sure what you mean

I think he means that firms don't "profit" from hiring someone as an SA and then no offering them.

Northwood's post was a little confusing. The only way I think it makes sense is if he/she means firms can maintain profits by no-offering SAs. But that's just how businesses work. Partners don't want to take a $10K (or whatever) hit because they miscalculated the need for first-years.

[worldtraveler]

Could you nice people give some examples of work you did that you found interesting?

Edit: and try to be specific of what you actually did because a lot of terms are nebulous to us ignorant 0Ls.

Even though in Criminal Law you're essentially doing the exact same things all the time (repetitive motion work), having interesting facts and people essentially every day helps.

I've written some memos on intellectually challenging topics about following international law and written some motions that were pretty instrumental in getting prisoners of conscience out of jail in a foreign country. That was challenging and legitimately awesome.

I only spend about 25% of my time on that stuff though. The rest of it is reports to donors, checking translations, and yelling at people on skype over a bad connection.

That is awesome. Do you need to go to HYSCCNB (G?) to get a job like that?[/quote

You need that and about 500 other qualifications, plus luck. And I don't know why you're putting Georgetown on that list.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

New Mexico has 0% big firm and 1% clerkship placement. That is not like a lower t14, but that's probably a digression.

Egregious Georgetown trolling?

Edit: Oh and I added G to the above list because I was thinking of more PI-focused T14s.