SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

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TR RoughRiders

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SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby TR RoughRiders » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:46 am

162, 3.5 URM and current Teach for America Corps member

I've narrowed down my choices to Saint Louis University and WUSTL. I intend on staying in ST. Louis for at least a few years after graduation. I will eventually go back to North Carolina, (my home) but not for a while. Retaking next year is not an option, I do not see myself in a classroom for one more year.

I am wondering whether going to SLU and having a better shot to be at the top of the class with full tuition be better than WUSTL and realistically being near the median (at sticker). I am also considering Iowa, but I have a fiancee here in St. Louis and would prefer to be closer to her (full tuition here as well).

Cost of SLU: approximately $42,000 for cost living expenses (tuition would be covered, no stips)
Cost WUSTL: $210,000
Cost of Iowa: $40,000

I am not 100% sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Thanks for the help, all advice would be welcome

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby thebobs1987 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:30 am

TR RoughRiders wrote:162, 3.5 URM and current Teach for America Corps member

I've narrowed down my choices to Saint Louis University and WUSTL. I intend on staying in ST. Louis for at least a few years after graduation. I will eventually go back to North Carolina, (my home) but not for a while. Retaking next year is not an option, I do not see myself in a classroom for one more year.

I am wondering whether going to SLU and having a better shot to be at the top of the class with full tuition be better than WUSTL and realistically being near the median (at sticker). I am also considering Iowa, but I have a fiancee here in St. Louis and would prefer to be closer to her (full tuition here as well).

Cost of SLU: approximately $42,000 for cost living expenses (tuition would be covered, no stips)
Cost WUSTL: $210,000
Cost of Iowa: $40,000

I am not 100% sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Thanks for the help, all advice would be welcome


Smart thing to do would be retake to get money from WUSTL because 210 is way too much. SLU is the clear winner if you don't retake if you plan on staying in STL

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby The Dark Shepard » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:40 am

SLU is fine if you are ok with working small law in St. Louis. You also won't likely be leaving the area anytime soon thereafter

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby LET'S GET IT » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:02 pm

.
Last edited by LET'S GET IT on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Telecaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:39 pm

Ok so I don't know much about SLU other than its ranking, but if the cost is basically the same between them and Iowa, why would you not choose Iowa? An Iowa degree is certainly going to give you more mobility than one from SLU, and St. Louis is like 4 hrs away from Iowa City. Even if you do plan on returning to St. Louis to practice, I would probably lean towards going to Iowa just because it will give you more options. Iowa will have the larger alumni base, and this will help should you want to move to a different state such as North Carolina. Besides, Kansas City and St. Louis are feeder markets for Iowa (and often firms from those cities participate in Iowa's OCI), so you're going to get some St. Louis networking at Iowa in addition to the ties that you may already have.

I feel like because University of Iowa is so close to St. Louis and they traditionally feed their grads into the city, you should go there. I don't see why you should pass up Iowa's higher rank and reputation. Unless you plan on staying in St. Louis and building your career there long term, or for personal reasons you think you have to stay in St. Louis (for your fiancee), I would go to Iowa.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Cellar-door » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:52 pm

Re-take and get money at WUSTL.

WUSTL dominates the most desirable St. Louis jobs. SLU places decently in town, but unless you get into the very top of the class you are going to be in line behind WUSTL grads.

I have seen nothing to indicate Iowa places at all in STL, location is irrelevant in that case.

If you hate teaching, find a different 1 year job. A few points should get you more money at WUSTL as a URM.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby transferror » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:54 pm

An Iowa degree is certainly going to give you more mobility than one from SLU, and St. Louis is like 4 hrs away from Iowa City. Even if you do plan on returning to St. Louis to practice, I would probably lean towards going to Iowa just because it will give you more options.


Iowa has no mobility. I don't know how many grads they usually place in Missouri, but it's less than 10% of its 2013 class for sure, and likely 5% or less.

While SLU placed far fewer grads in full time JD required employment, it placed almost all of them in Missouri.

OP: you have a much better shot at St. Louis from SLU, but you have a much better shot at legal employment from Iowa. Don't depend on either school to help you land a favorable placement in NC down the line. Weigh your desire to be in St. Louis vs. your desire to have a job at graduation.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby PrideandGlory1776 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:58 pm

UNC Law all the way - your instate, URM, and TFA-boost as well with good enough stats by themselves - reapply next year and enjoy in-state tuition.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Telecaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:19 pm

transferror wrote:Iowa has no mobility. I don't know how many grads they usually place in Missouri, but it's less than 10% of its 2013 class for sure, and likely 5% or less.

While SLU placed far fewer grads in full time JD required employment, it placed almost all of them in Missouri.

OP: you have a much better shot at St. Louis from SLU, but you have a much better shot at legal employment from Iowa. Don't depend on either school to help you land a favorable placement in NC down the line. Weigh your desire to be in St. Louis vs. your desire to have a job at graduation.


Statistics disagree with you.

65% of 2012 grads placed in states other than Iowa, same for class of 2013.

Unfortunately data is not yet available for the class of 2013 as far as specific geographic placement goes. But for 2012 5 people (3%) placed in Missouri. Granted, this is an extremely tiny number, but you have to factor in self selection and personal geographical preference bias of the graduating students. The point is Iowa can and does place in Missouri and has done so for years and years. I have been told from students who attend Iowa that St. Louis firms are traditionally seen at their OCI.

Point is, an Iowa degree does have mobility. Certainly more mobility than you are giving it credit for. So if the OP wants to practice in St. Louis he can make it happen with an Iowa degree. The more important statistic out of those two is not how many placed in Missouri, but how many students placed in other states. 33 other states represented by Iowa grads in 2012. Again, I think the important takeaway is how many students left Iowa to work in different states with an Iowa degree rather than how many actually placed in Missouri (because of self selection).

I will not argue with you though that SLU will be a better option if OP only wants to work in St. Louis. But because he said he only wants to work there for a few years then move, why should he go to SLU if the price is the same? Iowa grants more options and "prestige". I don't understand this argument of turn down the better school for the one that's regionally stronger, especially in this case. We're talking about a few hundred miles of geographic proximity. Firms in St. Louis will know about Iowa. Which degree do you think the employer would prefer to have on their website under their lawyers' profiles? Solid tier 1 school or barely tier 2 school?

If OP wants to work in St. Louis long term then he should probably go to SLU. If he wants options, and wants to be able to work in St. Louis but also be able to move some day down the road, he should probably go to Iowa.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby staysha » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:30 pm

TR RoughRiders wrote:162, 3.5 URM and current Teach for America Corps member

I've narrowed down my choices to Saint Louis University and WUSTL. I intend on staying in ST. Louis for at least a few years after graduation. I will eventually go back to North Carolina, (my home) but not for a while. Retaking next year is not an option, I do not see myself in a classroom for one more year.

I am wondering whether going to SLU and having a better shot to be at the top of the class with full tuition be better than WUSTL and realistically being near the median (at sticker). I am also considering Iowa, but I have a fiancee here in St. Louis and would prefer to be closer to her (full tuition here as well).

Cost of SLU: approximately $42,000 for cost living expenses (tuition would be covered, no stips)
Cost WUSTL: $210,000
Cost of Iowa: $40,000

I am not 100% sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Thanks for the help, all advice would be welcome


I think URM's with your numbers pretty regularly get full tuition offers for WUSTL and peer schools. No?

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby LET'S GET IT » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:13 pm

Iowa has maybe a little more mobility than SLU, but not much mobility (if any) besides Iowa and bordering states (twin cities, Chicago, KC, etc.). The point is, SLU places much better in St. Louis than Iowa, and the difference in North Carolina between the two will be negligible. OP wants to practice for several years in STL, hence SLU is the better choice, despite rankings. Getting to STL from Iowa would be much tougher than from SLU. I think you are giving Iowa to much credit.

The only choice here is between SLU, and sitting a cycle to retake for a better WASHU offer.


staysha wrote:
TR RoughRiders wrote:162, 3.5 URM and current Teach for America Corps member

I've narrowed down my choices to Saint Louis University and WUSTL. I intend on staying in ST. Louis for at least a few years after graduation. I will eventually go back to North Carolina, (my home) but not for a while. Retaking next year is not an option, I do not see myself in a classroom for one more year.

I am wondering whether going to SLU and having a better shot to be at the top of the class with full tuition be better than WUSTL and realistically being near the median (at sticker). I am also considering Iowa, but I have a fiancee here in St. Louis and would prefer to be closer to her (full tuition here as well).

Cost of SLU: approximately $42,000 for cost living expenses (tuition would be covered, no stips)
Cost WUSTL: $210,000
Cost of Iowa: $40,000

I am not 100% sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Thanks for the help, all advice would be welcome


I think URM's with your numbers pretty regularly get full tuition offers for WUSTL and peer schools. No?


No. These numbers aren't getting you a full ride at WASHU, URM or not. Half tuition would be a really nice get with current numbers.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby transferror » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:25 pm

Telecaster wrote:
transferror wrote:Iowa has no mobility. I don't know how many grads they usually place in Missouri, but it's less than 10% of its 2013 class for sure, and likely 5% or less.

While SLU placed far fewer grads in full time JD required employment, it placed almost all of them in Missouri.

OP: you have a much better shot at St. Louis from SLU, but you have a much better shot at legal employment from Iowa. Don't depend on either school to help you land a favorable placement in NC down the line. Weigh your desire to be in St. Louis vs. your desire to have a job at graduation.


Statistics disagree with you.

65% of 2012 grads placed in states other than Iowa, same for class of 2013.

Unfortunately data is not yet available for the class of 2013 as far as specific geographic placement goes. But for 2012 5 people (3%) placed in Missouri. Granted, this is an extremely tiny number, but you have to factor in self selection and personal geographical preference bias of the graduating students. The point is Iowa can and does place in Missouri and has done so for years and years. I have been told from students who attend Iowa that St. Louis firms are traditionally seen at their OCI.

Point is, an Iowa degree does have mobility. Certainly more mobility than you are giving it credit for. So if the OP wants to practice in St. Louis he can make it happen with an Iowa degree. The more important statistic out of those two is not how many placed in Missouri, but how many students placed in other states. 33 other states represented by Iowa grads in 2012. Again, I think the important takeaway is how many students left Iowa to work in different states with an Iowa degree rather than how many actually placed in Missouri (because of self selection).

I will not argue with you though that SLU will be a better option if OP only wants to work in St. Louis. But because he said he only wants to work there for a few years then move, why should he go to SLU if the price is the same? Iowa grants more options and "prestige". I don't understand this argument of turn down the better school for the one that's regionally stronger, especially in this case. We're talking about a few hundred miles of geographic proximity. Firms in St. Louis will know about Iowa. Which degree do you think the employer would prefer to have on their website under their lawyers' profiles? Solid tier 1 school or barely tier 2 school?

If OP wants to work in St. Louis long term then he should probably go to SLU. If he wants options, and wants to be able to work in St. Louis but also be able to move some day down the road, he should probably go to Iowa.


I agree with LGI. You're right that 65% of grads placed outside of Iowa, but where? There isn't exactly a robust legal market in Iowa. I think border states and the midwest generally account for the rest of the class. These aren't exactly large markets or prestigious placements. I imagine many grads went back to hometowns in the midwest. By mobility, I mean into a major market or respected secondary market. An Iowa JD isn't portable to either coast, the southeast, TX, or even really Chicago (although 22 class of '12 grades ended up in Illinois, I imagine none of these were per se prestigious positions, as only 17 grads landed in firms of 101+ for the entire class). Iowa has nothing outside of fly-over midwest. If by mobility, you mean outside of the state, then sure. I mean mobility as in portable to larger markets across the nation (or NC in OP's case), and this certainly isn't the case.

EDIT: and the difference between "solid tier 1" and "barely tier 2" is virtually nothing. Both are regional and carry little weight elsewhere.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Crowing » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:21 pm

Telecaster wrote:We're talking about a few hundred miles of geographic proximity. Firms in St. Louis will know about Iowa. Which degree do you think the employer would prefer to have on their website under their lawyers' profiles? Solid tier 1 school or barely tier 2 school?


You don't sound like you're from St. Louis, or have firsthand knowledge about Midwestern secondary markets in general. The answer is SLU by a mile for what school StL firms would rather have in their lawyers' profiles. In fact, St. Louis is even less cognizant of regional ties than most secondaries. The firms there don't care if you grew up 2 hours away. That doesn't make you any more of a St. Louisan in their books.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby DportIA » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:29 pm

Iowa's mid or large-firm, year-in/year-out, non-Iowa placement= Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, St Louis, KC, Omaha. Essentially, draw a circle around Des Moines.
Sprinkle in about 5 of LA/NYC/DC/TX/SF random other places per class, and there you have it.
100% accurate

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby DportIA » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:30 pm

Also, OP, this looks like a full tuition at Iowa. Most students that attend with that scholarship find very good jobs with their very low debt load.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Telecaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:46 pm

transferror wrote:I agree with LGI. You're right that 65% of grads placed outside of Iowa, but where? There isn't exactly a robust legal market in Iowa. I think border states and the midwest generally account for the rest of the class. These aren't exactly large markets or prestigious placements. I imagine many grads went back to hometowns in the midwest. By mobility, I mean into a major market or respected secondary market. An Iowa JD isn't portable to either coast, the southeast, TX, or even really Chicago (although 22 class of '12 grades ended up in Illinois, I imagine none of these were per se prestigious positions, as only 17 grads landed in firms of 101+ for the entire class). Iowa has nothing outside of fly-over midwest. If by mobility, you mean outside of the state, then sure. I mean mobility as in portable to larger markets across the nation (or NC in OP's case), and this certainly isn't the case.

EDIT: and the difference between "solid tier 1" and "barely tier 2" is virtually nothing. Both are regional and carry little weight elsewhere.


Look I don't want to derail this conversation and turn this into an Iowa cheerleading thread, but what you are saying is just factually incorrect. I seems like your basing a lot of what you're saying on assumptions and preconceived notions about these schools, which translates into very bad advice for the OP.

Iowa has a "robust" legal market, but this is all relative to what you compare it to. Compared to Chicago, NYC, DC? Hell no. Compared to most large cities, yes. Look up population statistics, look up firms within large Iowa cities. You have Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Davenport, the Quad Cities, and even Iowa City itself. UI is the flagship in the state and one of the best publics in the midwest. The majority of grads aren't leaving the state because there is no work, it is because they have the ability to do so.

Where do the 65% place? Many in the midwest yes, but many go all over the place. In any given year these numbers fluctuate, but Iowa consistently places a significant number of grads in D.C., NY, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Hawaii, Washington, and yes even North Carolina. How many originally came from these states? Its hard to say, but the point is that they have an alumni base in those states which is key.

Are they in large cities in large markets? Unfortunately we don't have data so we can't say. I suppose according to you the word "mobility" doesn't carry its actual definition but only applies to "respected secondary markets". By that I assume your talking about large urban centers. Are most of those grads in those types of markets? Probably not? Maybe? But again, the point is that the degree is portable and will carry people to different states, even outside the Midwest. Are most of them in "prestigious positions"? Again, I'm assuming that for you this only translates into six-figure-salary positions. By that definition, no, but then again no school outside of the top 10 places a majority of their grads in "prestigious positions" so Iowa would be no different by that standard. Are fedclerk placements prestigious positions? Because most of them don't make six figures.

For 2013, combining biglaw (27/190) and fedclerk (12/190) positions, Iowa has 20%. Relative to its peer schools, this is a very respectable figure. It does better than the majority of its peers and certainly better than SLU, both in biglaw placement and legal employment in general.

I'm not sure how to address your comment about tier 1 and tier 2 schools, especially given the schools in question, so I think I'll just skip over that.

According to employment data for classes of multiple years, an Iowa degree is portable across the nation. Whether west coast, east coast, north, south, whatever. Is it a true "national school"? Probably not. But it's more national than most schools outside of the t14 (excluding Wash U and Notre Dame) and certainly more mobile than SLU.

OP should take all this into consideration for making his decision. I agree with LGI to a point. SLU places better in St. Louis because it's located there. It probably would be more difficult for OP to break into STL from Iowa than SLU, but it is a market that you can get into from Iowa. For later on down the road, the Iowa degree will probably be better for moving to a different state than SLU will be.

I think alot of this comes down to how long OP wants to live and work in St. Louis for and how important it is to be closer to his/her fiancee. It seems to me that Iowa can best help him/her achieve both objectives (working in STL for a few years then moving to NC) over SLU, even though it probably won't be easy.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby cron1834 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:03 pm

Retake for full tuition at WUSTL is TCR.

Failing that, I agree with the dude who mentioned UNC. Given that NC is the ultimate goal, how is that not an option here?

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby transferror » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:06 pm

Are fedclerk placements prestigious positions?


Yes they are.

According to employment data for classes of multiple years, an Iowa degree is portable across the nation.


This isn't true. It might be "portable" to border states, but certainly not across the nation. Show me the data.

OP should take all this into consideration for making his decision.


Not really. OP wants to be in St. Louis and then NC down the road. Neither school offers a great shot at a starting position in NC or a lateral to NC. SLU offers a better starting chance in St. Louis, so we have a winner. End of conversation.

but Iowa consistently places a significant number of grads in D.C., NY, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Hawaii, Washington, and yes even North Carolina.


I don't think "significant" means what you think it means. Again, show me the data.

But it's more national than most schools outside of the t14 (excluding Wash U and Notre Dame)


See Texas, Vanderbilt, GW, UCLA, Emory, and a host of other schools. Although, these schools are still primarily regional. Less so than Iowa, but regional nonetheless (as in not T14).

It seems to me that Iowa can best help him/her achieve both objectives (working in STL for a few years then moving to NC) over SLU, even though it probably won't be easy.


Are you stupid? You already conceded that SLU places better in St. Louis than Iowa. That happens to be objective #1. I understand that Iowa is the better law school overall, but this isn't about your fettish for UI, it's about OP. The best choice for OP's $$ vs. odds at working in St. Louis are SLU. Get over it.

Look I don't want to derail this conversation and turn this into an Iowa cheerleading thread


Too late.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Telecaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:55 pm

Transferror.

Your use of ad hominem and straw man tactics of argumentation combined with selectively refuting only certain points of your opponent's argument make you especially persuasive. With these skills, you are certainly destined to be a very effective lawyer one day.

Okay here are the statistics: http://www.law.uiowa.edu/documents/stats_NALP_2012.pdf
You can also look at the class of 2011 data which is available. Geographic placement is shown. It is "portable" to states other than border states. There is this organization called the National Association for Law Placement that tracks all these boring and silly statistics and facts. The little rascals can be inconvenient road blocks when attempting to argue to the contrary.

I believe the word significant means what I think it means given the context. Look at the schools we are comparing. Relative to other peer schools in the midwest (ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO SLU), Iowa places a significant number of grads in ....[insert states previously said here].

To your comment about "see UT, GW, UCLA, Emory, ect". Notice I said Iowa is more national than most schools outside the t14 (excluding Wash U and Notre Dame). Notice that the scope of the quantifier "most" does not encompass quantifier "all". You may have room here to improve your LSAT score. Also notice that, again, outside of the t14, Wash U, and Notre Dame, there aren't any true national schools.

Also, re-read the stimulus your answer is incorrect. OP said that practice in STL will come first before moving to NC. I don't believe that necessarily means its objective #1. Maybe being being able to move to NC is more important to OP than practicing in STL? I don't know. Either way, Iowa will allow him to do both. Also, to your remarks about my "fetish". I don't attend UI. I'm probably going to be attending Notre Dame in the fall.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby shifty_eyed » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:00 am

Retake and get a few more points and get a full ride to WUSTL

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Cellar-door » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:38 am

Telecaster.
Did you read the NALP pdf you just linked?

2.9% in Missouri. It doesn't travel to St. Louis at all.

As someone who lives in STL (i go to WUSTL for full disclosure) there are a lot of SLU law grads working in town here at mid-sized, and even some large firms. I have never met a single Iowa grad or seen them on any firm's directory.

Most seem to be staying in Iowa (38%), only other location with double digits is Illinois (12.6%) the ret is a few people here and there.

Also concerning on that NALP report: only 75 of 174 reported where they worked or their salary (hint usually people with good high paying jobs report it others don't.)

Most worrying: 40% of those are in firms with 2-10 attorneys. Now that isn't necessarily a terrible job, but usually it means hung a shingle or dead end small firm. The average salary data is also worrying, with such a low percentage reporting you would expect the fact that all the big law people reported (they appear to have) and that would drag the numbers up. Not so much.

SLU places 57% of the class in MO. The choice is an obvious one between those two for a person who wants STL.
Of course the even more obvious choice is to retake and go to WUSTL.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby transferror » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:39 am

With these skills, you are certainly destined to be a very effective lawyer one day.


Thanks.

refuting only certain points of your opponent's argument


Don't use 3rd person, it isn't flattering.

Also notice that, again, outside of the t14, Wash U, and Notre Dame, there aren't any true national schools.


WashU and ND aren't "true national schools."

OP said that practice in STL will come first before moving to NC. I don't believe that necessarily means its objective #1. Maybe being being able to move to NC is more important to OP than practicing in STL? I don't know. Either way, Iowa will allow him to do both.


He's going to need to practice in St. Louis first (see "will come first"), which = objective #1, as in the first thing he needs to do.

Maybe being being able to move to NC is more important to OP than practicing in STL? I don't know. Either way, Iowa will allow him to do both.


In the link you posted, 14/174 (8%) of grads ended in the region in which NC may be included. Assuming equal distribution across the 6 states in the South Atlantic, ≈ 1.35% of grads ended up in each state. Which means 1.35% in NC. As in, not significant. I'll give it to you, 8% was higher than I thought, but by no means is that "significant."

I'm probably going to be attending Notre Dame in the fall.


Best of luck.

Like I said, UI is certainly a better school than SLU. But considering OP's goals, SLU makes sense over UI.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby Telecaster » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:29 am

transferror wrote:WashU and ND aren't "true national schools."


Please cease talking. ND puts more grads in California than its own home state. The number of grads placed in IN divided by 2 = the number placed in Florida. I'll let you find the numbers all by yourself this time. Wash U has similar mobility.

He's going to need to practice in St. Louis first (see "will come first"), which = objective #1, as in the first thing he needs to do.


Please consult a dictionary. You may be able to find one on the internet. An objective is something one seeks to attain ie a goal. Objectives, plural, would infer a hierarchy of goals arranged in an order of significance based on importance. The position of an objective is not dependent on its occurrence over a linear period of time. For example, because you would like to waive to your mother across the street before jumping out of the way of an oncoming bus does not mean that it would be your first objective.

In the link you posted, 14/174 (8%) of grads ended in the region in which NC may be included. Assuming equal distribution across the 6 states in the South Atlantic, ≈ 1.35% of grads ended up in each state. Which means 1.35% in NC. As in, not significant. I'll give it to you, 8% was higher than I thought, but by no means is that "significant."


I suspected you were going to say this. But when I was talking about UI having significant employment stats outside of the midwest and then listed the states, it does not follow that the adjective "significant" applies to every noun which follows it. I mean to say that Iowa has significant (definition: noteworthy) placement outside of the Midwest. And it does. Especially in the context of comparing it to other peer schools. Also, there are only 174 grads dude. Only so many of them can go to so many places. Why is it that suddenly when placement in a state becomes double digits that becomes significant but not before? We're talking about a tiny pool of people. 32 States are represented, over half the freakin country from one end to the other, including Guam and foreign nations. And that doesn't qualify as significant for you? I just looked up stats for Northwestern, 26 states represented. University of Pennsylvania 25. Less than Iowa and ND. I guess Northwestern and Penn don't have national reach though, they certainly aren't national schools.

Now I will engage you no further as this has become very childish. I don't want to fight over statistics. They are what they are.

Cellar-door. I will not try to disagree with you as I do not live in STL and so do not have first hand experience with that city or the market. The 3% your talking about though is 5 people out of 174 that went to 32 different states. I just don't think that that number translates into a 3% chance of OP breaking into STL market. We have to account for self selection bias. Maybe only 5 people wanted to work in Missouri and they got what they wanted. Maybe 30 people wanted to and only 5 could. The fact is that we don't know. The only point I'm trying to make is that the numbers show that Iowa grads do place in the state. I do know that STL employers come to Iowa OCI. The same goes for the NC and its region placement numbers. What seems significant to me is that grads from Iowa are even able to place that far away. To me it demonstrates that the degree has mobility.

I agree with you on the salary reports and firm size placement, that is concerning. However, firm size placement is up for 2013 grads from ABA report. But we don't have salary information through NALP yet for that class. Still, I agree with you, those numbers don't look good. However, traditionally 35% of Iowa grads stay in Iowa, that's the number for 2013. It was higher in 2012 than most years. Again, fluctuations because of personal selection I would think.

And I will concede that it is probably easier to break into STL from SLU than Iowa. But, again, for later on going back to NC Iowa is going to have a larger alumni base there compared to SLU. Maybe that won't matter once OP has established a career and has experience and credentials from working in STL, I don't know. If working in STL is most important to OP then SLU is probably TCC. But Iowa degree will be more helpful to him over SLU degree when trying to get into another state like NC.

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby LET'S GET IT » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:21 am

Telecaster wrote:
transferror wrote:I agree with LGI. You're right that 65% of grads placed outside of Iowa, but where? There isn't exactly a robust legal market in Iowa. I think border states and the midwest generally account for the rest of the class. These aren't exactly large markets or prestigious placements. I imagine many grads went back to hometowns in the midwest. By mobility, I mean into a major market or respected secondary market. An Iowa JD isn't portable to either coast, the southeast, TX, or even really Chicago (although 22 class of '12 grades ended up in Illinois, I imagine none of these were per se prestigious positions, as only 17 grads landed in firms of 101+ for the entire class). Iowa has nothing outside of fly-over midwest. If by mobility, you mean outside of the state, then sure. I mean mobility as in portable to larger markets across the nation (or NC in OP's case), and this certainly isn't the case.

EDIT: and the difference between "solid tier 1" and "barely tier 2" is virtually nothing. Both are regional and carry little weight elsewhere.


Look I don't want to derail this conversation and turn this into an Iowa cheerleading thread, but what you are saying is just factually incorrect. I seems like your basing a lot of what you're saying on assumptions and preconceived notions about these schools, which translates into very bad advice for the OP.

Iowa has a "robust" legal market, but this is all relative to what you compare it to. Compared to Chicago, NYC, DC? Hell no. Compared to most large cities, yes. Look up population statistics, look up firms within large Iowa cities. You have Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Davenport, the Quad Cities, and even Iowa City itself. UI is the flagship in the state and one of the best publics in the midwest. The majority of grads aren't leaving the state because there is no work, it is because they have the ability to do so.

Where do the 65% place? Many in the midwest yes, but many go all over the place. In any given year these numbers fluctuate, but Iowa consistently places a significant number of grads in D.C., NY, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Hawaii, Washington, and yes even North Carolina. How many originally came from these states? Its hard to say, but the point is that they have an alumni base in those states which is key.

Are they in large cities in large markets? Unfortunately we don't have data so we can't say. I suppose according to you the word "mobility" doesn't carry its actual definition but only applies to "respected secondary markets". By that I assume your talking about large urban centers. Are most of those grads in those types of markets? Probably not? Maybe? But again, the point is that the degree is portable and will carry people to different states, even outside the Midwest. Are most of them in "prestigious positions"? Again, I'm assuming that for you this only translates into six-figure-salary positions. By that definition, no, but then again no school outside of the top 10 places a majority of their grads in "prestigious positions" so Iowa would be no different by that standard. Are fedclerk placements prestigious positions? Because most of them don't make six figures.

For 2013, combining biglaw (27/190) and fedclerk (12/190) positions, Iowa has 20%. Relative to its peer schools, this is a very respectable figure. It does better than the majority of its peers and certainly better than SLU, both in biglaw placement and legal employment in general.

I'm not sure how to address your comment about tier 1 and tier 2 schools, especially given the schools in question, so I think I'll just skip over that.

According to employment data for classes of multiple years, an Iowa degree is portable across the nation. Whether west coast, east coast, north, south, whatever. Is it a true "national school"? Probably not. But it's more national than most schools outside of the t14 (excluding Wash U and Notre Dame) and certainly more mobile than SLU.

OP should take all this into consideration for making his decision. I agree with LGI to a point. SLU places better in St. Louis because it's located there. It probably would be more difficult for OP to break into STL from Iowa than SLU, but it is a market that you can get into from Iowa. For later on down the road, the Iowa degree will probably be better for moving to a different state than SLU will be.

I think alot of this comes down to how long OP wants to live and work in St. Louis for and how important it is to be closer to his/her fiancee. It seems to me that Iowa can best help him/her achieve both objectives (working in STL for a few years then moving to NC) over SLU, even though it probably won't be easy.



Are you in your 1L or 2L year at Iowa?

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Re: SLU vs. WUSTL vs. Iowa

Postby TR RoughRiders » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:42 am

I have a sizeable scholarship to UNC (and in-state), but I do have a fiancee who is here doing her graduate work as well.

If I were to increase my LSAT to a 166 (4 points) how reasonable of an expectation would it be for a full ride? Teaching did not allow me to study for the LSAT like I should have.

I am down to SLU and WUSTL... If WUSTL would give me at least 1/2 tuition that would be my landing ground.

On a tangent, would it be better to be at SLU where the competition may not be as tough in order to set me up to be closer to the top of the class?



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