My Situation... Forum

[burner]

OK, long time lurker first time poster, so here goes...

LSAT- Bad, very bad, 147 Dec 13 LSAT and I just couldn't study effectively. I work full time + (shift work, graves, 45-50 hrs average ) and go to school full time. Married too, but luckily no kids yet.
GPA- LSAC 3.84. Degree GPA 3.92.
Soft- Veteran of OIF 1, USMC. 8 years WE, supervision at a major electric utility- critical infrastructure.

I currently make 120k plus (with OT, salary 97k) at my job but dislike it immensely, and the job will likely be downgraded within a year...I would like to make the same when I get out of LS doing something interesting.

Choices so far-
Pepperdine- accepted, free with GI Bill/Yellow Ribbon Program (YRP) plus health insurance
Seattle U- accepted- would cost probably 25% (?) of full tuition since they don't offer full YRP
McGeorge- accepted- free with YRP

I still have nine other apps hanging out there...am aiming to stay in CA since I'm from NorCal.

I imagine myself working in state government, but am interested in making mid-100k (which I suppose would be big law)? My "shtick" on my LS applications has been environmental law since I work in regulatory compliance, but am open to other areas of law like business law (UG major is Business Admin) and would also definitely consider Federal Prosecutor work. I wouldn't mind working in Sac but am turned off by McGeorge. Do they own that town, or can anyone with a higher ranked school (i.e. Pepperdine) come in and beat a McGeorge candidate out?

Thanks, I appreciate it. Retake was not really an option since I really want to leave my job and I'm already 30 (31 starting law school); however once I graduate this May it could be an option, I suppose...

[deadpanic]

Dude, keep your 6 figure job please. You likely won't make anything close to that salary for possibly decades coming out of any of the above schools.

I know you dislike your job but are you absolutely sure you'll like being an attorney? There is really no way for you to know right now. I can tell you that most fellow lawyers I know don't like it.

Ranking is meaningless for the schools you are considering.

Your goals are unrealistic considering the caliber of schools you can attend. You won't be a federal prosecutor out of those schools. You won't make 6 figures. You may not even get a legal job at all from these schools. If you do, it is likely something in the 40-60k range.

[aboutmydaylight]

Dude, keep your 6 figure job please. You likely won't make anything close to that salary for possibly decades coming out of any of the above schools.

I know you dislike your job but are you absolutely sure you'll like being an attorney? There is really no way for you to know right now. I can tell you that most fellow lawyers I know don't like it.

Ranking is meaningless for the schools you are considering.

Your goals are unrealistic considering the caliber of schools you can attend. You won't be a federal prosecutor out of those schools. You won't make 6 figures. You may not even get a legal job at all from these schools. If you do, it is likely something in the 40-60k range.

This. OP, you realize that you're likely foregoing 3 years worth of salary for a job that will likely pay 1/2 of what you currently make, which you aren't guaranteed to enjoy any more than your current job?

With a GI bill + a 3.84 you are doing yourself a huge disservice by not retaking.

[UnicornHunter]

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

Check out the graph in that link. Entry-level legal jobs that pay more than your salary (base, never mind w/overtime) but aren't big law basically do not exist.

next, check out this (very) active thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=226797

If, after reading that, you're comfortable with the idea of pursuing BigLaw, retake and shoot for Berkeley/Stanford. Both are possible with your WE/GPA. Stanford with GI Bill+YRP is the single best deal in legal education.

If you're comfortable with working your tail off and (maybe) ending up with a job that pays significantly less than your current one, then Pepperdine seems like your best bet. Don't go to Seattle if you want to work in Ca.

[Nova]

Less than half of the grads from those schools ever get real lawyer jobs.

The "lucky ones" will mostly be making like 50k.

It is very very unlikely you will make 100K outta the schools you listed.


You need to wait. Retake, get a respectable score that matches your amazing GPA, and go to a law school that would make walking away from a 100k+ job reasonable.

[TigerDude]

you will not make that kind of money going to a law school with a 147.

You will likely be unemployed and will spend decades recovering from your loss of 3 yrs income. Don't do it.

[BigZuck]

Better to keep a well-paying job that you hate than hate yourself for going to law school and ending up with no job, or a hateable job making like 50K

Please, do not go to law school

[Tuxedo]

Is it possible that with your spouse and with any savings you have from your 6 figure job that you might be able to take time off in general, recover from the graveyard shift, study up and retake?

[jbagelboy]

Retake isn't even a question here: it's a categorical imperative. Not doing so would be a sin against mankind and your family/moral outrage/intellectual blasphemy of the highest order. You could be attending UVA or even Berkeley full ride on military benefits.

None of the graduates from those schools make near the amount you currently make ("None" read: statistically insignificant number within the margin of error of 0).

[cotiger]

Retake isn't even a question here: it's a categorical imperative. Not doing so would be a sin against mankind and your family/moral outrage/intellectual blasphemy of the highest order. You could be attending UVA or even Berkeley full ride on military benefits.

I'm actually writing a book on the deontological implications of (not) retaking.

Working title: "The Critique of Pure Unreasonableness"

[twenty]

Take all the free time you have from not doing school full time come May and study your ass off for the October LSAT. With your GPA, a reasonably decent LSAT score, and the full GI bill, you could go to Cal (or better yet, Stanford) for free. The difference in salary potential will be huge.

[20141023]

.

[TheSpanishMain]

I would like to make the same when I get out of LS doing something interesting.
Choices so far-
Pepperdine- accepted, free with GI Bill/Yellow Ribbon Program (YRP) plus health insurance
Seattle U- accepted- would cost probably 25% (?) of full tuition since they don't offer full YRP
McGeorge- accepted- free with YRP

Then you can't go to these schools. Sorry man. You'd be one of the lucky ones if you managed to land a small firm job making 50k. Things like BigLaw or federal prosecution are almost certainly not going to happen out of these places. There is no choice but to wait and retake.

Do they own that town, or can anyone with a higher ranked school (i.e. Pepperdine) come in and beat a McGeorge candidate out?

I have no idea, but I imagine both can easily be beaten by a UCLA/USC grad, not to mention any T14 grad. There are just too many lawyers for not enough jobs, and if you don't go to a decent school you're setting yourself up for disaster. You owe to your family to at least get yourself up into the mid-160s. At that point, UCLA/USC are available, and either of those with 0 debt are pretty sweet.

[Pneumonia]

OP if you haven't already and if the stuff in this thread sounds like immaturity or elitism, please take some time to research the current state of the legal market. Suffice to say that it is not good. Yes, "law school" is still mostly seen from a lay perspective as prestigious. However, don't let that fool you into thinking that it is. Educate yourself if you haven't already. The schools that you are considering are terrible options for you and for pretty much anyone else.

If you want a 6 figure job coming out of school you can have that, but not with a 147 LSAT. It is impossible to overstate the impact of the LSAT score in admissions, especially in your case since you have such a good GPA. Do whatever you need to do to raise your score by 20 points, minimum. That is 100% doable too (speaking from experience). There are good resources here and elsewhere to get you there.

Whatever you do don't dismiss the things you've read here. Lots of the posters are older, and several of the people who have replied to you are practicing attorneys. There is also a military thread here that you might find helpful (they're going to tell you the same thing though). Good luck!

[burner]

OP if you haven't already and if the stuff in this thread sounds like immaturity or elitism, please take some time to research the current state of the legal market. Suffice to say that it is not good. Yes, "law school" is still mostly seen from a lay perspective as prestigious. However, don't let that fool you into thinking that it is. Educate yourself if you haven't already. The schools that you are considering are terrible options for you and for pretty much anyone else.

If you want a 6 figure job coming out of school you can have that, but not with a 147 LSAT. It is impossible to overstate the impact of the LSAT score in admissions, especially in your case since you have such a good GPA. Do whatever you need to do to raise your score by 20 points, minimum. That is 100% doable too (speaking from experience). There are good resources here and elsewhere to get you there.

Whatever you do don't dismiss the things you've read here. Lots of the posters are older, and several of the people who have replied to you are practicing attorneys. There is also a military thread here that you might find helpful (they're going to tell you the same thing though). Good luck!

Thanks for the comments Pneumonia, I don't take anything said here as immaturity or elitism. I guess I expected some "retakeness" out of the forum and it's made me think about things a lot. I appreciate everyone's comments, and I have a lot to talk about with my wife. Thanks to all.

[Toby Ziegler]

In keeping with the other Kantians in here, you HAVE to retake. I can't remember if anyone posted this link, but play around with this: http://mylsn.info/r/pre-law/admissions/search/

See where your GPA coupled with a good LSAT could get you. And keep in mind if you retake and earn a good LSAT you should out-preform your numbers given your unique softs.

HTH

[20141023]

.

[haus]

Burner,

How many years have you been out of the Corps? I believe the newest version of the GI Bill will pay benefits for 15 years. Personally, I was partially burned by not utilizing all of my benifits before they hit the (old) 10 year expiration point.

[burner]

Burner,

How many years have you been out of the Corps? I believe the newest version of the GI Bill will pay benefits for 15 years. Personally, I was partially burned by not utilizing all of my benifits before they hit the (old) 10 year expiration point.

I served 01-05. I got my employer to pay for UG, so only used 12 months of the old MGIB. I just submitted the application to the VA upgrading the MGIB to the Post 9/11 and just got it backdated to expire in 2020, instead of next year. I was very relieved, since I was expecting the usual VA BS....

[star fox]

Great GPA, great pay and you can't wait another year (if even going to law school at all...) Am I missing something? Do not quit your job and enroll in law school with a 147. If you want to go to law school really bad then study really hard for the LSAT until you get about 20 extra points. I don't know how bad your job can really be but if you're making 120K working 50 hours a week then I can't imagine it being so awful you can't stick it out at least another year.

[PepperJack]

Thanks for the comments Pneumonia, I don't take anything said here as immaturity or elitism. I guess I expected some "retakeness" out of the forum and it's made me think about things a lot. I appreciate everyone's comments, and I have a lot to talk about with my wife. Thanks to all.

Just FYI, I was "older" when I entered law school, but I think it has actually worked in my favor. Employers seem to love applicants who are more mature and have work experience, so I wouldn't rush off to a law school with dismal employment numbers just because you feel like there is a magical cut-off at the age of 30. (I am also married and put off law school for a few years to take the LSAT; if I hadn't done so, I would have likely had similar options as you do right now, but because I waited, I ended up at an upper T14.)

+ OP how will employers know your age when they are hiring? Even if age factored into a certain extent (which almost every lawyer knows is illegal so wouldn't consciously do it) how much would 1 year diminish you? I.E. even if age discrimination did exist (and I can't see a hiring meeting of people almost all over 40 discussing how your age means you won't succeed), do you think it's rational to say that being 29 from a TTTT with 1% placement will be enough to surpass being 30 at a t-14? Let's say even if you're right, you're right, you're right - age is as big a factor as 1L GPA. How many students at the TTTT get the good job? 1 or 2? Even if you were valedictorian with your scarlet letter (age) why would you rationally believe you'd be those 1 or 2.

[TheSpanishMain]

Burner,

How many years have you been out of the Corps? I believe the newest version of the GI Bill will pay benefits for 15 years. Personally, I was partially burned by not utilizing all of my benifits before they hit the (old) 10 year expiration point.

I served 01-05. I got my employer to pay for UG, so only used 12 months of the old MGIB. I just submitted the application to the VA upgrading the MGIB to the Post 9/11 and just got it backdated to expire in 2020, instead of next year. I was very relieved, since I was expecting the usual VA BS....

Come on over to the vet thread if you need help deciphering some of the VA runaround. Most people are either working on the same thing or have already been through it.

Anyway, your age/military service will NOT hold you back in hiring. It'll be a plus. You'll present a way more interesting, well rounded story than some guy who just went high school -> undergrad -> law school, and is just now venturing out of the cocoon. If you just work on your LSAT (and I mean really give it some time and effort...like six months-ish) you'll have a great application and be set up for success.

[Tuxedo]

@OP—

I'm 29 right now and waiting a year to go to law school to retake (I have a 165 that I want to boost). Even the employment stats at schools that admitted me were a little worrisome.

I think if anything at all is true about late 20s/early 30s types entering the legal workforce, it's that we MUST enter with good jobs. While we've enjoyed doing other things besides pursuing law school (I will have 5 years as a teacher and mock trial coach under my belt when I leave next year), we don't have the extra time to build up clients in some solo-practice or shitlaw gig so that when we hit 50 or 60 the money will start snowballing.

If legal practice is really in your future, you're going to need to make the scores that land you in a school that will set up you for that success, even if you're looking at a serious 10 year grind through school and biglaw. Sorry—guys like us just don't have that kind of time.

[burner]

Burner,

How many years have you been out of the Corps? I believe the newest version of the GI Bill will pay benefits for 15 years. Personally, I was partially burned by not utilizing all of my benifits before they hit the (old) 10 year expiration point.

I served 01-05. I got my employer to pay for UG, so only used 12 months of the old MGIB. I just submitted the application to the VA upgrading the MGIB to the Post 9/11 and just got it backdated to expire in 2020, instead of next year. I was very relieved, since I was expecting the usual VA BS....

Come on over to the vet thread if you need help deciphering some of the VA runaround. Most people are either working on the same thing or have already been through it.

Anyway, your age/military service will NOT hold you back in hiring. It'll be a plus. You'll present a way more interesting, well rounded story than some guy who just went high school -> undergrad -> law school, and is just now venturing out of the cocoon. If you just work on your LSAT (and I mean really give it some time and effort...like six months-ish) you'll have a great application and be set up for success.

Thanks Spanish, I appreciate the comments

[burner]

Thanks for the comments Pneumonia, I don't take anything said here as immaturity or elitism. I guess I expected some "retakeness" out of the forum and it's made me think about things a lot. I appreciate everyone's comments, and I have a lot to talk about with my wife. Thanks to all.

Just FYI, I was "older" when I entered law school, but I think it has actually worked in my favor. Employers seem to love applicants who are more mature and have work experience, so I wouldn't rush off to a law school with dismal employment numbers just because you feel like there is a magical cut-off at the age of 30. (I am also married and put off law school for a few years to take the LSAT; if I hadn't done so, I would have likely had similar options as you do right now, but because I waited, I ended up at an upper T14.)

+ OP how will employers know your age when they are hiring? Even if age factored into a certain extent (which almost every lawyer knows is illegal so wouldn't consciously do it) how much would 1 year diminish you? I.E. even if age discrimination did exist (and I can't see a hiring meeting of people almost all over 40 discussing how your age means you won't succeed), do you think it's rational to say that being 29 from a TTTT with 1% placement will be enough to surpass being 30 at a t-14? Let's say even if you're right, you're right, you're right - age is as big a factor as 1L GPA. How many students at the TTTT get the good job? 1 or 2? Even if you were valedictorian with your scarlet letter (age) why would you rationally believe you'd be those 1 or 2.

I guess I'm just impatient, since this has been a goal for so long (attending law school)....but seriously, do you think full ride at Pepperdine is TTTT? (not a joke) I know the employment numbers, but is that one of those "wouldn't attend even if free?"